Question:

I second that. Shawn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think we should all let Norma know how we feel about Forrest making it to the NWC. Myself, I think it would be a once-in-a-lifetime event for a youngster to mingle with an older generation that would only have his interest at heart and spoil the H*** out of him. At the Open tournaments that my club promotes, whenever we have a young man join his father as a fishing partner, (as young as 7yrs.old), everyone in the crowd makes sure that this young man wants for nothing. The club makes sure that he walks away with more stuff in grab bags than he can hardly carry. So Norma, if you’re reading this with Forrest, please reconsider and let us enjoy our time with him, and maybe give us a memories that we didn’t get to share with our kids when they were his age. You’re flying?   It doesn’t look like Forrest is going to be able to make the tourney afterall… you know how ex-wifes are (are you reading this So… would you like to take the back seat in my boat for this one? Heck… you could even have the front seat if you wanted it.  Let me know. Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-( — http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/thebasspro/themmightybass/ — Jerry Barton http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

Thanks old buddy!!   I am sure I will hear something from her now!  <grin She has actually suggested an alternative since I last posted… she said maybe he could fly.  Because of his health condition and the likelihood that something could happen while on the road in the middle of "no where" she prefer him not be on the road with me for two days. If something, God Forbid, were to happen and we were on the road and as an example… three hours from the nearest hospital capable of treating him, it would be very tragic to say the least.  So I have to give that to her.  It only makes sense that we not risk it. So… I’m working on the flying for him.  Keep the pressure coming… I’ll let you know what she has to say.   I have serious doubts that he will be able to make it at this point but I need to talk to Huber and find out what medical facilities are around there.  Personally… I think she’s overprotective, but what mother isn’t.  <grin Thanks again.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I think we should all let Norma know how we feel about Forrest making it to the NWC. Myself, I think it would be a once-in-a-lifetime event for a youngster to mingle with an older generation that would only have his interest at heart and spoil the H*** out of him. At the Open tournaments that my club promotes, whenever we have a young man join his father as a fishing partner, (as young as 7yrs.old), everyone in the crowd makes sure that this young man wants for nothing. The club makes sure that he walks away with more stuff in grab bags than he can hardly carry. So Norma, if you’re reading this with Forrest, please reconsider and let us enjoy our time with him, and maybe give us a memories that we didn’t get to share with our kids when they were his age. You’re flying?   It doesn’t look like Forrest is going to be able to make the tourney afterall… you know how ex-wifes are (are you reading this So… would you like to take the back seat in my boat for this one? Heck… you could even have the front seat if you wanted it.  Let me know. Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-( — http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/thebasspro/themmightybass/ — Jerry Barton http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

Tell us Vern, is he wearing a one piece or a bikini ???? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, Do you know… you’re a legend in my kids’ mind for some reason.   I just talked to Norma about he and flying up there.   She said, "tell me about this tourney"   I told her about you and this group, etc.  She said… "Is that the guy that Forrest has on his PC’s wallpaper?" Somehow you’ve made the impression old buddy!   I guess cause he knows you are the dude hosting the tourney.   hehe   I just thought you would like to know.  I thought it was cute that he’s so taken with his buddy "Steve" that he would put your photo on his desktop wallpaper!! … Vern … What’s the possiblity of both of you flying in together, and maybe Huber or Dan Duckworth could find a boat that you could rent for you and Forrest? First of all, "C’MON MOM, LET FORREST COME AND PLAY!!!"  :) Now, the possibility of a rental boat is very real.  I talked to the new owner of TrackSide Marine, my local ProCraft/Fisher dealer.  I told him about you guys, the tournament and so on.   I explained what would be needed for a rental boat, not just a 15 hp outboard on a 14 foot rowboat, that we needed trolling motors, locators, blah, blah, blah.  He’s got a couple of used, trade-in boats that he said he’d rent to any tournament member.  If he didn’t have any appropriate used boats, then he’d take a couple of the Fisher boats and rent them, then sell them as demo’s later.  He just hasn’t figured out a rental fee yet.  More about this will be coming. — Homepage of the ROFB Northwoods Classic  http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp

– http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

Thanks!!!  Now that I know who she is… I wish I didn’t!!!   Makes me sick to my ____ing stomach!!!  Here I fight everyday for a child’s life and she…     I have no words for it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Forget about her… Forgive my stupidity… who is Andrea Yates? Andrea Yates for one. — Consider Him snip |  Personally… I think she’s | overprotective, but what mother isn’t.  <grin | | Thanks again. |

Response:

Steve, Do you know… you’re a legend in my kids’ mind for some reason.   I just talked to Norma about he and flying up there.   She said, "tell me about this tourney"   I told her about you and this group, etc.  She said… "Is that the guy that Forrest has on his PC’s wallpaper?" Somehow you’ve made the impression old buddy!   I guess cause he knows you are the dude hosting the tourney.   hehe   I just thought you would like to know.  I thought it was cute that he’s so taken with his buddy "Steve" that he would put your photo on his desktop wallpaper!! … Vern …

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s the possiblity of both of you flying in together, and maybe Huber or Dan Duckworth could find a boat that you could rent for you and Forrest? First of all, "C’MON MOM, LET FORREST COME AND PLAY!!!"  :) Now, the possibility of a rental boat is very real.  I talked to the new owner of TrackSide Marine, my local ProCraft/Fisher dealer.  I told him about you guys, the tournament and so on.   I explained what would be needed for a rental boat, not just a 15 hp outboard on a 14 foot rowboat, that we needed trolling motors, locators, blah, blah, blah.  He’s got a couple of used, trade-in boats that he said he’d rent to any tournament member.  If he didn’t have any appropriate used boats, then he’d take a couple of the Fisher boats and rent them, then sell them as demo’s later.  He just hasn’t figured out a rental fee yet.  More about this will be coming. — Homepage of the ROFB Northwoods Classic  http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp

Response:

Your suggestion to BassPro is a good one… take a duffle bag or something with essentials.  My ex-mother-in-law once took a flight… packed all her insulin and Delta (notice it wasn’t Continental!) lost her bags!!  We had to find a 24hour pharmacy, call her doctor back home and all that jazz.  Made our trip absolutely miserable! Just curious… who do you work for?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey! I have never flown before either, so even though this may be off-topic, I’m hoping that some of you experienced flyers can answer this for me… Is there a limit on how much luggage a person can bring? I’m only talking about a couple of rod carriers, a couple of boxes for the rest of my gear, and a couple of bags for clothing. Really… I have no idea how to even begin. Generally, you should have no problem with that number of bags. Suggest you take a duffle bag with a change of undies and toothbrush, any medication, or important stuff you don’t want lost, etc. for a carry-on, in case your luggage gets misplaced, or weather and/or maintenance delays keep you stuck someplace. Serious. I WORK for an airline, and I always carry a backpack with the above type stuff in it when I non-rev. travel. Learned the hard way…. B3– Robert E. Longshore

Response:

Hey Charles, Flying is way cool!   Jumping out of planes is even cooler!!  <grin I grew up around the airlines so I would almost always rather fly than drive anywhere that’s more than three hours from home.  Unfortunately it doesn’t always work out that way, but nonetheless I just went over one and a half million air miles this past March.  If it won’t get me in trouble I’ll see what I can arrange for your first ticket.  Just don’t tell anyone.  <grin Here are some baggage guidelines from MY FAVORITE AIRLINE… Continental (you figure out why they are my favorite <grin).   I hope you find them helpful. … Vern … CARRY-ON BAGGAGE – ALLOWANCES Baggage that is carried on board must easily fit within the sizing boxes (L x W x H dimensions 22" x 14" x 9" or 56 cm x 36 cm x 23 cm) which are located at Continental’s ticket counters and departure gates. The maximum combined weight of all carry-on baggage is 40 lbs (18 kg). The maximum combined linear measurement (L + W + H) of all carry-on baggage is 45 inches (114 cm). In addition to the maximum carry-on baggage allowance the following articles may be carried on board the aircraft:     One briefcase     One handbag     One small personal computer (notebook style), camera or walkman/disc player     Personal aid devices, such as crutches or cane Additional carry-on Baggage restrictions may apply on certain flights. CHECKED BAGGAGE – ALLOWANCES Travel Within the U.S.A., including Alaska and Hawaii Maximum number of 3 checked pieces per ticketed customer that adhere to the following size (measured in linear inches or centimeters, total length + width + height) and weight dimensions: 1st bag not to exceed 70 lbs (31 kg) or 62 linear inches (157 cm) 2nd bag not to exceed 70 lbs (31 kg) or 55 linear inches (140 cm) 3rd bag not to exceed 70 lbs (31 kg) 45 linear inches (114 cm) A BusinessFirst customer may check a fourth piece of baggage not to exceed 70 pounds (31 kilograms) or 45 linear inches (114 cm). Boxes are accepted on a voluntary separation and limited liability basis only.    Boxes travel "standby". All oversize or overweight baggage, all boxes and any extra pieces are carried on a space available basis, and may not arrive at customer’s destination for up to five days. Excess baggage is accepted on limited release. CABIN-SEAT BAGGAGE Continental Airlines will allow a customer to purchase a ticket for an item, approved by a Continental agent, which is too fragile or bulky to be handled as checked baggage. The following restrictions apply: Must not exceed 165 lbs (75 kg). Must be packaged or covered in a manner to avoid injury to other customers. Must be secured in a seat adjacent to the owner. Must be properly secured by a seat belt to avoid shifting during flight. Must not restrict access to, or use of, any regular or emergency exit or aisle of the cabin. Must not obscure any customer’s view of "seat belt," "no smoking" or "exit" signage. Must not contain dangerous goods. Must be reserved in advance and applicable charges paid. Please check with a Continental agent for pricing information. EXCESS BAGGAGE All charges are calculated on a one-way basis and are collected at the airport ticket counter. Additional Baggage Checked baggage in excess of the free baggage allowance will be charged as follows: $75 per piece for the first three additional pieces $100 per piece for the fourth, fifth, and sixth additional pieces $175 per piece for the seventh and any additional pieces Overweight Baggage Checked baggage exceeding 70 lbs/32 kgs will be charged at the rate of $75 per piece. These charges are in addition to any charge assessed for additional or oversized baggage. Baggage weighing more than 100 lbs/45 kgs will not be accepted as checked baggage. It may be shipped as air cargo. Please contact Continental Cargo for more details. Oversized Baggage Checked baggage which is larger than Continental’s stated size limits will be charged at the rate of $75 per piece. These charges are in addition to any charge assessed for additional or overweight baggage. Baggage measuring more than 80 in/203 cm (total outside dimensions; length + width + height) will not be accepted as checked baggage. It may be shipped as air cargo. Please contact Continental Cargo for more details. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey! I have never flown before either, so even though this may be off-topic, I’m hoping that some of you experienced flyers can answer this for me… Is there a limit on how much luggage a person can bring? I’m only talking about a couple of rod carriers, a couple of boxes for the rest of my gear, and a couple of bags for clothing. Really… I have no idea how to even begin.

Response:

All right Gill !     Now  you are beginning to make me have second thoughts about flying. I’m not much for the scenic route, and kinda prefer the security of the interstates when I get mis-placed somewhere in Oregon.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-( Hello Guys, If I can make it, I won’t go without my boat for sure. I hope there are no Zebra Muscles. 1,800 miles, sleeping in my moutaineer campershell mounted on the back of my 2001 3/4 ton Dodge Cummins Deisel, showers at truckstops, lots of cold sandwitches and plenty of java.  I figure around three days of driving would do it.  If I can go I’ll have to plan a scenic route for the return trip.  My wife already says no to letting the boys go but we can pretty forgetfull when the time comes.  "I’m sure they will always remember a trip like that" Gil

Response:

Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-(

Hello Guys, If I can make it, I won’t go without my boat for sure. I hope there are no Zebra Muscles. 1,800 miles, sleeping in my mountaineer campershell mounted on the back of my 2001 3/4 ton Dodge Cummins Deisel, showers at truckstops, lots of cold sandwitches and plenty of java.  I figure around three days of driving would do it.  If I can go I’ll have to plan a scenic route for the return trip.  My wife already says no to letting the boys go but we can pretty forgetfull when the time comes.  "I’m sure they will always remember a trip like that" Gil

Response:

I’ll take a rental, as long as they’re not ProCrafts!

Why’s that Warren?  Are you worried that after fishing in a ProCraft, you won’t be happy with what you’ve got?  Besides, if you draw me in the tourney, you’ll HAVE to….  :) — Homepage of the ROFB Northwoods Classic  http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp

Response:

Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-(

Hello Guys, If I can make it, I won’t go without my boat for sure. I hope there are no Zebra Muscles. 1,800 miles, sleeping in my moutaineer campershell mounted on the back of my 2001 3/4 ton Dodge Cummins Deisel, showers at truckstops, lots of cold sandwitches and plenty of java.  I figure around three days of driving would do it.  If I can go I’ll have to plan a scenic route for the return trip.  My wife already says no to letting the boys go but we can pretty forgetfull when the time comes.  "I’m sure they will always remember a trip like that" Gil

Response:

Hey! I have never flown before either, so even though this may be off-topic, I’m hoping that some of you experienced flyers can answer this for me… Is there a limit on how much luggage a person can bring? I’m only talking about a couple of rod carriers, a couple of boxes for the rest of my gear, and a couple of bags for clothing. Really… I have no idea how to even begin.

        Generally, you should have no problem with that number of bags. Suggest you take a duffle bag with a change of undies and toothbrush, any medication, or important stuff you don’t want lost, etc. for a carry-on, in case your luggage gets misplaced, or weather and/or maintenance delays keep you stuck someplace. Serious.         I WORK for an airline, and I always carry a backpack with the above type stuff in it when I non-rev. travel. Learned the hard way….         B3– Robert E. Longshore

Response:

I’ll take a rental, as long as they’re not ProCrafts! Warren2;-)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s the possiblity of both of you flying in together, and maybe Huber or Dan Duckworth could find a boat that you could rent for you and Forrest? First of all, "C’MON MOM, LET FORREST COME AND PLAY!!!"  :) Now, the possibility of a rental boat is very real.  I talked to the new owner of TrackSide Marine, my local ProCraft/Fisher dealer.  I told him about you guys, the tournament and so on.   I explained what would be needed for a rental boat, not just a 15 hp outboard on a 14 foot rowboat, that we needed trolling motors, locators, blah, blah, blah.  He’s got a couple of used, trade-in boats that he said he’d rent to any tournament member.  If he didn’t have any appropriate used boats, then he’d take a couple of the Fisher boats and rent them, then sell them as demo’s later.  He just hasn’t figured out a rental fee yet.  More about this will be coming. — Homepage of the ROFB Northwoods Classic  http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp

Response:

Clap, Clap, Clap !!!! Another extra step taken by you Steve, and I applaud you. This was a great job on your part. Thank you . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s the possiblity of both of you flying in together, and maybe Huber or Dan Duckworth could find a boat that you could rent for you and Forrest? First of all, "C’MON MOM, LET FORREST COME AND PLAY!!!"  :) Now, the possibility of a rental boat is very real.  I talked to the new owner of TrackSide Marine, my local ProCraft/Fisher dealer.  I told him about you guys, the tournament and so on.   I explained what would be needed for a rental boat, not just a 15 hp outboard on a 14 foot rowboat, that we needed trolling motors, locators, blah, blah, blah.  He’s got a couple of used, trade-in boats that he said he’d rent to any tournament member.  If he didn’t have any appropriate used boats, then he’d take a couple of the Fisher boats and rent them, then sell them as demo’s later.  He just hasn’t figured out a rental fee yet.  More about this will be coming. — Homepage of the ROFB Northwoods Classic  http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp

– Jerry Barton http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

What’s the possiblity of both of you flying in together, and maybe Huber or Dan Duckworth could find a boat that you could rent for you and Forrest?

First of all, "C’MON MOM, LET FORREST COME AND PLAY!!!"  :) Now, the possibility of a rental boat is very real.  I talked to the new owner of TrackSide Marine, my local ProCraft/Fisher dealer.  I told him about you guys, the tournament and so on.   I explained what would be needed for a rental boat, not just a 15 hp outboard on a 14 foot rowboat, that we needed trolling motors, locators, blah, blah, blah.  He’s got a couple of used, trade-in boats that he said he’d rent to any tournament member.  If he didn’t have any appropriate used boats, then he’d take a couple of the Fisher boats and rent them, then sell them as demo’s later.  He just hasn’t figured out a rental fee yet.  More about this will be coming. — Homepage of the ROFB Northwoods Classic  http://www.uglybass.com/rofbmp

Response:

That’s VERY doable I would suspect.  Didn’t even think of that possibility

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What’s the possiblity of both of you flying in together, and maybe Huber or Dan Duckworth could find a boat that you could rent for you and Forrest? Thanks old buddy!!   I am sure I will hear something from her now! <grin She has actually suggested an alternative since I last posted… she said maybe he could fly.  Because of his health condition and the likelihood that something could happen while on the road in the middle of "no where" she prefer him not be on the road with me for two days. If something, God Forbid, were to happen and we were on the road and as an example… three hours from the nearest hospital capable of treating him, it would be very tragic to say the least.  So I have to give that to her. It only makes sense that we not risk it. So… I’m working on the flying for him.  Keep the pressure coming… I’ll let you know what she has to say.   I have serious doubts that he will be able to make it at this point but I need to talk to Huber and find out what medical facilities are around there.  Personally… I think she’s overprotective, but what mother isn’t.  <grin Thanks again. I think we should all let Norma know how we feel about Forrest making it to the NWC. Myself, I think it would be a once-in-a-lifetime event for a youngster to mingle with an older generation that would only have his interest at heart and spoil the H*** out of him. At the Open tournaments that my club promotes, whenever we have a young man join his father as a fishing partner, (as young as 7yrs.old), everyone in the crowd makes sure that this young man wants for nothing. The club makes sure that he walks away with more stuff in grab bags than he can hardly carry. So Norma, if you’re reading this with Forrest, please reconsider and let us enjoy our time with him, and maybe give us a memories that we didn’t get to share with our kids when they were his age. You’re flying?   It doesn’t look like Forrest is going to be able to make the tourney afterall… you know how ex-wifes are (are you reading this So… would you like to take the back seat in my boat for this one? Heck… you could even have the front seat if you wanted it.  Let me know. Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-( — http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/thebasspro/themmightybass/ — Jerry Barton http://members.home.net/jbarton248 — Jerry Barton http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

Andrea Yates for one. — Consider Him

snip |  Personally… I think she’s | overprotective, but what mother isn’t.  <grin | | Thanks again. |

Response:

Forgive my stupidity… who is Andrea Yates?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Andrea Yates for one. — Consider Him snip |  Personally… I think she’s | overprotective, but what mother isn’t.  <grin | | Thanks again. |

Response:

Forget about her…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Forgive my stupidity… who is Andrea Yates? Andrea Yates for one. — Consider Him snip |  Personally… I think she’s | overprotective, but what mother isn’t.  <grin | | Thanks again. |

Response:

What’s the possiblity of both of you flying in together, and maybe Huber or Dan Duckworth could find a boat that you could rent for you and Forrest? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks old buddy!!   I am sure I will hear something from her now!  <grin She has actually suggested an alternative since I last posted… she said maybe he could fly.  Because of his health condition and the likelihood that something could happen while on the road in the middle of "no where" she prefer him not be on the road with me for two days. If something, God Forbid, were to happen and we were on the road and as an example… three hours from the nearest hospital capable of treating him, it would be very tragic to say the least.  So I have to give that to her.  It only makes sense that we not risk it. So… I’m working on the flying for him.  Keep the pressure coming… I’ll let you know what she has to say.   I have serious doubts that he will be able to make it at this point but I need to talk to Huber and find out what medical facilities are around there.  Personally… I think she’s overprotective, but what mother isn’t.  <grin Thanks again. I think we should all let Norma know how we feel about Forrest making it to the NWC. Myself, I think it would be a once-in-a-lifetime event for a youngster to mingle with an older generation that would only have his interest at heart and spoil the H*** out of him. At the Open tournaments that my club promotes, whenever we have a young man join his father as a fishing partner, (as young as 7yrs.old), everyone in the crowd makes sure that this young man wants for nothing. The club makes sure that he walks away with more stuff in grab bags than he can hardly carry. So Norma, if you’re reading this with Forrest, please reconsider and let us enjoy our time with him, and maybe give us a memories that we didn’t get to share with our kids when they were his age. You’re flying?   It doesn’t look like Forrest is going to be able to make the tourney afterall… you know how ex-wifes are (are you reading this So… would you like to take the back seat in my boat for this one? Heck… you could even have the front seat if you wanted it.  Let me know. Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-( — http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/thebasspro/themmightybass/ — Jerry Barton http://members.home.net/jbarton248

– Jerry Barton http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

I think we should all let Norma know how we feel about Forrest making it to the NWC. Myself, I think it would be a once-in-a-lifetime event for a youngster to mingle with an older generation that would only have his interest at heart and spoil the H*** out of him. At the Open tournaments that my club promotes, whenever we have a young man join his father as a fishing partner, (as young as 7yrs.old), everyone in the crowd makes sure that this young man wants for nothing. The club makes sure that he walks away with more stuff in grab bags than he can hardly carry. So Norma, if you’re reading this with Forrest, please reconsider and let us enjoy our time with him, and maybe give us a memories that we didn’t get to share with our kids when they were his age. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re flying?   It doesn’t look like Forrest is going to be able to make the tourney afterall… you know how ex-wifes are (are you reading this So… would you like to take the back seat in my boat for this one?  Heck… you could even have the front seat if you wanted it.  Let me know. Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-( — http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/thebasspro/themmightybass/

– Jerry Barton http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

Sure wish that I was closer, Charles, we’d be hittin’ them. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sounds good to me! Sorry to hear that Forrest can’t make it, must be school conflicts I’m sure. Are you nearby Wisconsin? After doing the math, I’ve decided that flying there would be cheaper than two days of driving and renting a motel room somewhere in between. Then you can taking in account all of the stops that I’ll be making for food…WOW! Sure, a person has to eat, but being on the road that long without my computer, what else would I be thinking about. hehe… Hey! I have never flown before either, so even though this may be off-topic, I’m hoping that some of you experienced flyers can answer this for me… Is there a limit on how much luggage a person can bring? I’m only talking about a couple of rod carriers, a couple of boxes for the rest of my gear, and a couple of bags for clothing. Really… I have no idea how to even begin. Guess I’ll have to do come research on this, but all of this work that’s been piled on me this week is slowing my "fun time" planning down a bit. I am going to say the *heck with it* on thursday night, and go try to catch that millioin dollar fish that’s been placed in the Priest!!!  Kris, you joining me? You’re flying?   It doesn’t look like Forrest is going to be able to make the tourney afterall… you know how ex-wifes are (are you reading this So… would you like to take the back seat in my boat for this one? Heck… you could even have the front seat if you wanted it.  Let me know.

– Jerry Barton http://members.home.net/jbarton248

Response:

Sounds good to me! Sorry to hear that Forrest can’t make it, must be school conflicts I’m sure. Are you nearby Wisconsin? After doing the math, I’ve decided that flying there would be cheaper than two days of driving and renting a motel room somewhere in between. Then you can taking in account all of the stops that I’ll be making for food…WOW! Sure, a person has to eat, but being on the road that long without my computer, what else would I be thinking about. hehe… Hey! I have never flown before either, so even though this may be off-topic, I’m hoping that some of you experienced flyers can answer this for me… Is there a limit on how much luggage a person can bring? I’m only talking about a couple of rod carriers, a couple of boxes for the rest of my gear, and a couple of bags for clothing. Really… I have no idea how to even begin. Guess I’ll have to do come research on this, but all of this work that’s been piled on me this week is slowing my "fun time" planning down a bit. I am going to say the *heck with it* on thursday night, and go try to catch that millioin dollar fish that’s been placed in the Priest!!!  Kris, you joining me?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re flying?   It doesn’t look like Forrest is going to be able to make the tourney afterall… you know how ex-wifes are (are you reading this So… would you like to take the back seat in my boat for this one? Heck… you could even have the front seat if you wanted it.  Let me know.

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Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-( — http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/thebasspro/themmightybass/

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You’re flying?   It doesn’t look like Forrest is going to be able to make the tourney afterall… you know how ex-wifes are (are you reading this So… would you like to take the back seat in my boat for this one?  Heck… you could even have the front seat if you wanted it.  Let me know.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok… What I am needing is either driving info, or flying info getting to the NWC. I’m favoring flying because it’s cheaper and less travel time. But… Where do I fly to? Also, I don’t have the web-site for it and was wondering where everyone was staying? I think Steve had a motel on alert or something. Info… Info… Info… needed. If I don’t start planning now…. I’ll go crazier by September!  :-( — http://quicksitebuilder.cnet.com/thebasspro/themmightybass/

Response:

Question:

  I think that a sense of being crowded has much to do with the size of the stream. On many small streams it is futile to fish behind another angler without a significant wait and there is no way that two people could share even the largest pool. Larger streams and rivers can accommodate many more anglers per mile without the sense of crowding. As the streams and rivers have become more crowded over the years, especially on the more famous waters, many anglers have accepted this over crowding as part of angling.

I consider a river to be crowded when you can’t rest a pool or a run after someone has fished it because someone else will jump in there. Unfortunately you have to get used to it on most of the rivers around here. I don’t fish too much smaller water, but I probably should.  I like fishing the big water and can usually drive to a spot that isn’t as crowded.  Even on the big rivers, people seldom venture to areas that require hiking to get at or that will require a longer drive down a dirt road. One of the best things about fishing smaller water is that you can often have them to yourself. The drawback is that even one other angler can spoil things.

Fishing smaller water to me means smaller fish, but possibly more of them so what they lack in size you make up for in numbers.  They can be a great source of enjoyment, but I fear I am getting lazy with so much water in easy walking/driving distance.  The last 2 years has not seen me doing much hiking to get at fish.  I get enough hiking in during hunting season. Besides, if things are good on a big river you can still get plenty of fish and bigger ones too.  I do miss the innocence displayed by fish in the smaller water that doesn’t get pounded. — Warren Findley Shut up and fish! For Yellowstone Clave info: http://www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt/YNP.html

Response:

If anyone is fishin’ the sections of Upper Creek that I fish, I consider the stream to be crowded!

I think that a sense of being crowded has much to do with the size of the stream. On many small streams it is futile to fish behind another angler without a significant wait and there is no way that two people could share even the largest pool. Larger streams and rivers can accommodate many more anglers per mile without the sense of crowding. As the streams and rivers have become more crowded over the years, especially on the more famous waters, many anglers have accepted this over crowding as part of angling. One of the best things about fishing smaller water is that you can often have them to yourself. The drawback is that even one other angler can spoil things. Willi

Response:

If anyone is fishin’ the sections of Upper Creek that I fish, I consider the stream to be crowded!

Opie, if you are fishing within 2 states of me I considered things getting too crowded Warren

Response:

If anyone is fishin’ the sections of Upper Creek that I fish, I consider the stream to be crowded! Opie, if you are fishing within 2 states of me I considered things getting too crowded

Hell, I’ve fished AND hiked with the boy.  He is a crowd unto himself, whether or not anyone else is in the crick!  About the only thing about him that ain’t crowded is the top of his head!!      :) Wolfgang amazed at what he can remember about a person in light of a promised absence at an upcoming event

Response:

If anyone is fishin’ the sections of Upper Creek that I fish, I consider the stream to be crowded! Op

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   You guys should be glad to have so many wusses around.  Every November and December I go off for some late season steelheading on the Deschutes, in windy freezing rain, only to find it hard to lock into one of my favorite runs.  Often, once I get onto one, I look upstream: a fishermen. Downstream:  a fisherman.  "What the hell are these people doing out in weather like this?" I ask myself. Oh believe me, I am thankful.  I have started to notice more people going out in the winter time though.  I fear that the waters I like to fish will be crowded year around before too long.  Of course what I consider to be crowded during the winter is about 10 people on the mile stretch I fish <g — Warren Findley Yellowstone Clave info at: www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t believe what a bunch of wusses Colorado fishermen are. I had to run down to Mike Clark’s shop today to pick up a set of ferrules for a Leonard restoration. I drove the scenic route, which followed most of the Big Thompson and St. Vrain drainages. On a normal Saturday morning I’d have seen at least a hundred guys in the water, but today it was snowing, and I didn’t count a dozen fishermen out. I got home, bundled up in wool and goretex, and went back up to slaughter them. The fish were feeding like they were expecting something bad was about to happen, and I think they were right. It looks like runoff could get started any day now.

I notice much the same thing here too.  As soon as the weather is nice, the place I normally fish has a dozen people in it.  If it is crowded, I go to my alternate spot which is actually better, but a longer drive and more hiking. I did notice today that the river was a little darker than normal.  It was kind of funny though because you could see how the water level had dropped since the rain and warm weather we have been having.  Now that it is cold and snowing again, the water levels dropped but there is still some sediment in the water giving it a murky tinge.  I fear runoff is just around the corner for us too. Glad to hear you slayed them.  The fish up here seem to know that tomorrow is another day and are in no hurry to chow down just yet.  It is kind of funny, I think they are tired of midges after having fed on them all winter.  Now that they have tasted other flies, they have become really picky and mostly ignore the midges.  Thank God there are always some dumb ones <g — Warren Findley Yellowstone Clave info at: www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

I can’t believe what a bunch of wusses Colorado fishermen are. ….snipped I notice much the same thing here too.  As soon as the weather is nice, the place I normally fish has a dozen people in it….

You guys should be glad to have so many wusses around.  Every November and December I go off for some late season steelheading on the Deschutes, in windy freezing rain, only to find it hard to lock into one of my favorite runs.  Often, once I get onto one, I look upstream: a fishermen. Downstream:  a fisherman.  "What the hell are these people doing out in weather like this?" I ask myself. JR

Response:

  You guys should be glad to have so many wusses around.  Every November and December I go off for some late season steelheading on the Deschutes, in windy freezing rain, only to find it hard to lock into one of my favorite runs.  Often, once I get onto one, I look upstream: a fishermen. Downstream:  a fisherman.  "What the hell are these people doing out in weather like this?" I ask myself.

Oh believe me, I am thankful.  I have started to notice more people going out in the winter time though.  I fear that the waters I like to fish will be crowded year around before too long.  Of course what I consider to be crowded during the winter is about 10 people on the mile stretch I fish <g — Warren Findley Yellowstone Clave info at: www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

……. I headed back upstream to check some productive dry fly water.  When I got there I didn’t see any fish rising so I sat on the bank and watched for a few minutes to see if anything was going to happen….

It took me a very long time, at the beginning of my fishing life, to figure out that a day ends up being a lot more enjoyable the more I take time for these 5-10 minute sit-downs just to watch what is happening.  Sounds like you had a real pleasant day, despite the weather. JR

Response:

Nice report, jarhead. I can’t believe what a bunch of wusses Colorado fishermen are. I had to run down to Mike Clark’s shop today to pick up a set of ferrules for a Leonard restoration. I drove the scenic route, which followed most of the Big Thompson and St. Vrain drainages. On a normal Saturday morning I’d have seen at least a hundred guys in the water, but today it was snowing, and I didn’t count a dozen fishermen out. I got home, bundled up in wool and goretex, and went back up to slaughter them. The fish were feeding like they were expecting something bad was about to happen, and I think they were right. It looks like runoff could get started any day now.

Response:

Well, I was sitting around the house wishing I could be out fishing and decided I wasn’t going to let the weather stop me.  It has been snowing off and on since yesterday but it isn’t too cold out.  The wind has been pretty bad and was the real reason why I had not ventured out.  After milling around the house and constantly staring out the window, I decided to make a go of it anyway.  The urge to fish far outweighed any weather considerations so I grabbed my gear, loaded up my fly boxes, grabbed the six weight and hit the door. I haven’t been able to fish in a couple of weeks and the lack of fishing has really taken its toll on me.  Despite the crappy weather I was really jazzed about getting out on the water.  I arrived at the access on the Gallatin and scanned the surface while I was getting ready.  I did not see any fish rising, but I did see quite a few midges out and about.  When I finally reached the water I couldn’t believe how many midges there were.  All the little pockets and back eddies were just filled with midges. I fished my way downstream and came to a spot that I wasn’t able to wade so I climbed up along the bank.  I was kind of walking a little too close to the private property so I dipped down a little lower so as to not piss the land owner off.  The bank is really steep with several logs, trees and log jams along the bank.  The water is really deep too. I came up to a spot that had a little log jam with a couple of trees hanging over the bank.  I saw several piles of midges gathered in this little sheltered position.  A really nice sized fish was working this area and was coming up quite often.  He was in a position that I could not cast to however.  I tried doing some commando fishing and dapping a griffith’s gnat in the area but I put the fish down. I headed back upstream to check some productive dry fly water.  When I got there I didn’t see any fish rising so I sat on the bank and watched for a few minutes to see if anything was going to happen. Several minutes went by and not one rise.  I just couldn’t resist making a few casts to a little pocket that I can usually pull a fish out of.  Second cast and I was able to get the fly in there despite the wind.  A short drift and a silver bullet darted up from the bottom and slammed the fly.  I set the hook and the fight was on.  It felt so great to have a fish on after such a long period without being able to fish.  I landed a nice little rainbow of about 10-11" after he made several jumps and runs.  After releasing him, I sat on the bank to kind of soak in the feeling of being out on the water again and catching fish. I moved up to the next big section of dry fly water and saw a few rises while I was there but was unable to get the fish interested in what I was offering.  After about an hour of fishing/observing and only seeing 7 rises I decided to move back downstream.  The snow started coming in a lot harder and the wind picked up.  The snow was falling almost horizontally because of the wind and began picking up in intensity.  It was enough to finally drive me off the water and back to the truck. Even though I only caught one fish, it was great to be back out.  I wish the weather would have cooperated a little more, but perhaps tomorrow will hold better weather and the fish will be a little more eager.  Until then, I guess I will just have to tie up some more flies that I will be using in the not so distant future. — Warren Findley Yellowstone Clave info at: www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

Response:

Question:

Putting all that together, I gather that I haven’t broken a rod while casting because I use a roll cast or retrieve enough of a wet line to avoid that overload on the lift, and I’m never over bending the rod while casting.  The fatal errors come in the heat of battle. The more I think about it, I see what you mean about casting being the heaviest force on the rod. Thanks for your help, Chas

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod.

If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Response:

The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. If it’s done right the rod is already fully loaded and you are just accelerating the line and, more importantly, the tip of the line. — Charlie…

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

Response:

rw, If the haul is done correctly the rod is fully loaded and any additional speed must be imparted to the line by foreword movement of your arm and by pulling "hauling" the line through the guides. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod.

Response:

Charlie, Your analysis of hauling to increase line speed and thus increasing casting distance is correct.  If it was a matter of loading the rod as rw says the caster would only have to apply more power to accomplish this. Ernie

I’m not saying that the *point* of hauling is to load the rod. I’m saying only that one *effect* of hauling is additional loading of the rod. It has to have that effect — there’s no way around it. Hauling accelerates the line, which generates a force on the rod tip. (F=ma) Consider three cases: 1. After loading the rod on the forward cast (with no hauling), you accidently lose your grip on the line with your noncasting hand. The acceleration of the line vanishes, the force on the rod tip vanishes, the rod straightens without appreciably affecting the line, and the line falls on the water in a bloody mess. 2. You make a normal forward cast without hauling, just holding the line tight. A force is applied to the line by the rod tip, causing acceleration of the line. An equal and opposite force is applied to the rod top, causing loading of the rod. 3. You make a forward cast while hauling. The action of the noncasting hand, pulling on the line, causes an *additional* acceleration of the line. This additional acceleration causes an *additional* force on the rod tip, resulting in additional loading of the rod. If you ignore things like friction, you could replace the effect (on the rod) of hauling by a transient additional stress in the line, and the rod would have no way of "knowing" the difference. It would simply load more. (The line would behave very differently, though.) These three cases are really just points in a continuum. Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

Whether you consider this additional rod loading to be significant is your business, but it’s nonetheless real. This is just elementary physics.

It also ignores the fact that the line is not attached to the tip of the rod and that the rod is very nearly, if not fully, loaded. There may be some additional loading, but what makes the haul work is the additional acceleration applied directly to the line. This is just elementary geometry<g. — Charlie…

Response:

http://www.mikeconnor.de You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul. Thanks Chas

This is also correct.    The amount of linespeed any particular rod may generate in a flyline by direct action is limited by various things, one of which is the strength and speed of the caster. ( assuming once again perfect technique). If you haul, you do not increase the loading, as you do not use direct rod action, but your line hand, and you do not require any more strength and speed to obtain similar results to someone who does not haul. However, a powerful person with good technique will always cast better ( assuming distance casting here of course), than a weaker person, simply because he has more power per se. TL MC

Response:

– "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

If you ask most people at what point a rod is stressed the most, then many of them will tell you that it is in playing a fish.  This is not the case. The basic maximum stress condition for a rod, when used correctly, is when casting. Most modern rods can stand a great deal more stress in this respect than is generally realised.  What they can not stand is shock loading under stress. If you jerk a rod when it is already loaded with a "dead weight", either played out fish, old shoe etc etc then it is highly likely to break. Solid glass fibre rods were probably the most robust rods to date.  Carbon fibre suffers from one or two disadvantages here. Even a slight nick in the surface of a blank can cause sudden massive failure, sometimes the blank will simply shatter without warning. More rods are broken by various extraneous factors than by casting.  The failure might indeed occur when casting, but is usually the result of some other fault. Car doors, falling down on the rod, excessive heat, leaning a rod on a stone and nicking it, ramming the tip into a tree, etc etc. Constantly overloading a rod by casting full lines etc, which are way over the rated weight will usually cause a blank failure as well of course. Most rods broken while actually fishing, do so for a number of reasons, the main one directly fishing related, is getting snagged, putting a good bend in the rod, and then jerking it.  This will quite easily snap a carbon fibre blank, or shatter it . The sudden extreme shock loading under stress is more than the rod can handle. The second most common reason is trying to lift a long line, especially a sunken one, without first roll-casting the line to the surface. Attempting to do this will break most rods. The sudden massive loading is once again more than they can stand. The third most common reason is attempting to land a fish by holding the rod almost vertically, and allowing it to bend over ninety degrees from the vertical. The fish plunges, and the rod simply snaps at the tip. No major exertions are required here by the way, doing the same thing while threading a line through the rings  will also snap a rod tip quite easily. What often happens here, is that the rod is bent, and then the blank "rolls" suddenly changing the stress patterns in the blank walls, and causing it to break. Occasionally rods are broken when fighting very large fish, but this is again an error on the part of the angler. It should normally be impossible for a fish to break a rod, given sufficient angling skill, and correct tackle.. Holding a rod in the fingers and bending it, is also very dangerous. Especially with fine tips. Assuming a rod in good condition, no nicks etc. And also assuming correctly matched line, and reasonable casting, and correct use, then the likelihood of breaking a rod is actually very low indeed. TL MC

Response:

"Mike Connor" wrote This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more.

Of course, my sloppy wording betrayed me. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain.

You didn’t comment on my second reason.  Does this make sense to you?      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.

Thanks Chas

Response:

If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up.

I’ve been mean to a few rods at times, putting a #10 line in a #8 rod and casting Pike flies for instance, but I’ve never managed to break one casting.  Is this because most of my fishing has been with Graphite or Glass? I have to dig back into some old Physics books to get the details, but I remember stress and strain curves for various materials showing a linear relationship until a limit was released, and then additional stress produced excessive strain until the material failed.  Certainly with an old shoe or a fish on the line and a stout leader it’s easy enough to pass the elastic limit, but does that happen in casting as well? Thanks Chas

Response:

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip.

Your finger is playing the role of the rod tip in that case. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing.fly Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 6:33 AM This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. The point is, that when you haul, the line moves, and the rod does not, or only slightly. Thread your rod up with a line. Lay the line out and point the rod straight down the line.  Grasp the line at the butt, and pull sharply. The rod has not been loaded in any way, but the line will spring towards you. The direct pull moves the mass directly. Do the same thing holding the rod at an angle to the line, The same thing occurs, with a relatively small proportion of the applied force bending the rod tip slightly, if at all. Progressively increase the angle until the rod is at right angles to the line. At this point the maximum possible rod loading, under these circumstances, will occur when you pull on the line, nevertheless, the majority of the energy involved still goes towards moving the line, the tip will barely move. It is quite immaterial how hard, how long, or how fast you pull. The energy is transferred directly to the line. The rod is barely affected. The angle of the rod changes the vector, and the rod loads a little, due to friction mainly, but the majority of the energy involved goes into moving the line. If it were so that hauling dramatically increased rod loading, then hauling on an already optimally loaded rod would cause it to fold up. This is not the case. The result of hauling is dramatically increased linespeed, because of the direct application of force to the line.  You dont have to believe me, just try it. This is also incidentally why striking a fish with a pull on the line is better than doing it with the rod. The force applied is transferred more or less directly, with very little loss, to the hook point. The rod does not move much,  and  is not loaded appreciably. Only the line moves. If you strike with the rod, you must first load it, before you can apply any force at all, and because of the mechanical disadvantage involved, the force you transfer will be minimal, and indirect. The principles are the same in both cases. In one case you are transferring energy to accelerate a mass using the short end of a flexible lever, and in the other case you are doing it by giving a direct pull.  The lever is in the second case quite immaterial, and may be ignored. TL MC Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de

Response:

This is not a matter of taking sides I hope. Otherwise I will simply retire from the discussion. This is a technical discussion and nothing more. Apart from that, you are perfectly correct. Although the rod loading generated by hauling is inconsequential, irrespective of the current loading state of the rod.  When the rod is already optimally loaded, and as you say at its stiffest, the added loading generated by hauling is so small as to be insignificant. This is just as well, as if hauling did in fact appreciably increase rod loading, then an already optimally loaded rod would simply fold up under the added strain. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

Response:

This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored.

I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force generated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip.

Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull.

Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip.

I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity

I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity I have to doubt that additional rod loading is minimal, Mike. The only way the caster can increase the speed of the line is by accelerating it. The only way he can accelerate it is by exerting a force on the line at the rod tip. (F=ma). An equal and opposite force is exerted on the rod at the tip, which results in loading the rod. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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One other point.  Inertia is the direct measurement of a mass.  The only way to change inertia is to change the mass. One may not "break" inertia.  One may overcome it, ( move the mass) by applying force. Newtons laws explain this relatively simply. The first law states that:  " A body will remain at rest, or continue to move steadily in a straight line without acceleration unless it is acted on by an unopposed force. The second law states: "The acceleration of a body depends directly on the force acting on it but inversely upon its mass" The third law states: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" Force is a measure of the rate at which momentum is changed. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically.

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I sure hope you’re not breaking your wrist with this arm cast, which would be very bad form, you know. JR – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm

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So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance?

Well, it’s not a limp wrist I’ll tell you that much And while it *is* acting as the rod tip, it’s not loading in the same sense as a fly rod is it? Isn’t most of the line action due to acceleration because I’m pulling on it (and not wrist flip caused by the pulling)? –Steve

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RW,     I have to side with Mike here, for a couple reasons.  If the haul is done right, it happens when the rod is fully loaded.  At that point it’s at it’s stiffest, and the flex isn’t increased much by the added force.  The reaction force is actually the force you apply with your line hand when you haul the line in.      A second reason that the loading is not the key is that you could achieve the same additional loading if you just applied a bit more casting force.  We know that a man of modest strength and a good haul can outcast a muscle man who doesn’t haul.      Also, there is direct pull on the line, the guides are like pulleys.  If you consider an 18 inch haul, and watch the effect on the rod tip, I bet it’s drawn back less than 4 inches.  The other 14 inches were directly applied to the line. Chas

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This would be correct if the line was fixed at the rod tip. When hauling it is not. It moves more or less freely through the guides. The force applied is applied directly to the line, independent of the rod loading.  The "equal and opposite reaction" in this case, is immediate line acceleration due to a direct pull, and is independent of the rod. Some of this force( a relatively small amount actually ) does indeed go towards the total rod loading, but compared to the force which is transferred to the line, this may be more or less ignored. I’m afraid you’re missing the point, Mike. It’s really irrelevant whether the line is fixed or free to move through the guides. There is a force exerted on the line, by the rod tip, that accelerates the line. There is a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the rod tip. That force has the effect of bending the rod. The greater the force, the more the line is accelerated, and the more the rod is bent (i.e., loaded). None of this force can be "ignored". The force gener ated by "hauling" is not "applied directly" to the line. It’s applied though the loaded, and increasingly loaded, rod. The acceleration is induced by a direct pull on the line, and is only possible because the line is indeed able to move independent of the rod tip. Again, there’s no "direct" pull on the line. ALL the force affecting the airborne line is generated at the rod tip. If you lay  a piece of string along a table top, and pull one end, depending on the force and speed with which you pull, you can accelerate the string quite easily, giving it very considerable momentum. The string accelerates immediately, simply as a result of the pull. No rods etc are involved. The only force involved is the direct pull. Sure, but that’s not what’s happening when the line is strung though a rod. You (the caster) can exert a force on the line in your left (hauling) hand, but the only force that can be exerted on the airborne line *outside* the rod is exerted at the rod tip. Before hauling was discovered, the line momentum was indeed totally dependent on the acceleration of the rod tip. With hauling, this is no longer the case.  When hauling, the extra line velocity is independent of the rod tip. I’m not saying *anything* about the acceleration of the rod tip. I’m only saying that the force on the line (outside the rod) is generated ONLY at the rod tip. Where else? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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So, In your estimation, does your wrist have a fast action or slow action and how does it affect your distance? Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

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Additional rod loading when hauling is  minimal.  Most of the force used is transmitted directly to the line, increasing its speed immediately and drastically. Momentum = Mass * Velocity A very short haul of a couple of inches is sufficient to increase line speed drastically, and thus increase its momentum, allowing the mass to be thrown a greater distance. The harder(force), longer ( distance) and faster( time) the haul, the greater the resulting line momentum, independent of the rod.  The same effect may be observed without using a rod at all. Shortening line decreases the mass, and therefore reduces momentum.  As far as hauling is concerned this is more or less negligible. Shortening the line by even a couple of feet, does not reduce its mass by much. If you overload the rod, the haul will still be effective, but due to the rod already being overloaded, additional strain, even slight, due to shock loading might damage it. Otherwise the length of line ( total mass ) is irrelevant when hauling. The effect is the same with or without a rod, and with any length of line. TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

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When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out.

I agree with what you’re saying, but I can "cast" nearly thirty feet by using only my right arm as the rod (with fingers in O shape to act as the tiptop) and a lefthand haul. So there’s more to it than just the rod tip. In fact, in a blindfold test I can’t tell the difference between a Cabelas rod and my own arm –Steve

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From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line? I suppose the way to test it out would be to overline a rod and cast a sufficient length of line to overload the rod.  Would hauling be effective? According to the simple haul/loading spring idea,  the haul would (perhaps) be ineffective, though the shortening of the line (derived from the haul) would still prevail?

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From what I’ve always been told,  the reason that hauling improves the line speed is that additional loading is put into the rod by the action of hauling. Obviously the hauling is done during the power phases fore and aft.  An immediate reaction of the hauling action is a shortening of the line,  and therefore an increase in velocity:  Is it at all significant compared to the additional loading of the rod?  Is the inertia of the line broken by the haul and therefore allows the spring of the rod to work on an already moving line?

When you haul you’re loading the rod by making it work harder against the inertia of the line. I don’t really think "shortening the line" is a good way to look at it. A haul takes in maybe two or three feet of line, and you have maybe 30 feet or more out. Imagine what would happen if the end of the line were attached to a springy tree branch when you hauled. (An all too frequent occurence in my case.) The rod would bend even if you didn’t move it forward. By hauling, you cause an increase in the force exerted by the rod tip on the line. When you haul in the normal, more felicitous case, more or less the same thing happens, but the resistance of the tree branch is replaced by the inertia of the line. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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Question:

Took my son Tom, up NW of Jackman, Me. for a couple of nights of camping and fishing. We drove up Friday, the weather threatening some rain so I nipped into WallyWorld and got him a cheapie rainsuit, hopefully guaranteeing that it wouldn’t rain. On the way in we went down to the boat launch on Holeb pond, one of two spots where people put in for the "bow trip". The campsite was mobbed, a full troop of scouts from Connecticut were preparing to launch the bow trip the next day and there was a full load of other campers. We then drove up to Turner pond, a small pond with special regs (arts only, 2 fish with a slot limit) and found that campsite deserted so we made camp. After a tasty steak we took the canoe out on the pond and to my surprise there were some hex’s hatching so I rigged up and moved down the left shore where I spotted some fish rising. I managed to miss a half dozen hits and the hatch died off so we made for the tent. The next morning after breakfast we went out and I hit the sinking line hard, fishing streamers and missed a couple of feeble hits. After lunch I let Tom take the canoe out by himself, a first for him, and he went out to a big rock and managed to get on the rock without dumping himself in the pond. He found a plaque that was somewhat sobering, commerating two fishermen who drowned in 1976 while fishing their "favorite pond". Later in the day a local came by and shared what he knew about it, the two gentlemen, one in his 70’s and one in his 50’s, a father and son, got caught on the pond in a storm and their canoe capsized, they didn’t make it to shore. Tom wanted to try flyfishing so I spent an hour or so with him in the road working on his cast. After dinner we went back out and he managed a couple of brookies, one about 6" and one about 10" on the dry fly. He was very happy. I managed one about 12" and again the hatch died off so we made to bed. This morning the wind was high, it was drizzling and nasty hot and humid, the mosquitoes were well fed, so we decided to cut the trip short by a day and come home. He was ready and to be fair so was I. Turner pond, for the record, is a pretty little pond about 18 miles out of Jackman. The main concentration of fish seemed to be on the north shore, where I could hear a fast running brook, but never managed to see where it was dumping into the pond. I suspect the fish population isn’t what it should be, or it was just a poor weekend for fishing as there were not that many fish showing, despite the hex hatch. I did manage to foul hook a 4" rainbow smelt on my #6 dry fly, a new accomplishment in setting records for the smallest fish on a trip The kick for me in this trip was Tom’s first trout/fish on a flyrod.  Tom had tried flyfishing once before but refused to practice casting, so the results were predictable, he got skunked and discouraged. The kick for Tom this time was outfishing his dad, and on a fly rod to boot ( he was so smug). In another 10-15 years I expect he’ll be in here sharing his (hopefully improved) puns and sharply developing sense of humor. Another flyfisherman has been introduced to the ranks. Flyfish — dave’s homepage madness http://www.ctel.net/~brooktrout flyfishing in Maine and more

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Great report, Dave.  I’ve been thinking about making an overnighter up that direction sometime in the next week or so.  May even stop by the Rapid.  How are water levels in the rivers?  Water temps? Dave L.

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appreciated.  Indian Joe

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appreciated. Indian Joe

You should be able to forward the message, is a list isn’t it? Just forward the roff message to the address you use to post to the list. — Charlie…

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The Kennebec north of Madison is running very low, except the streach near the forks where the levels are dictated by the rafting companies. I stopped in a small fly shop near Solon on the way back and he said that the river is fishing well, but the hatches are poor, nymphs seem to be the ticket. He also said the water temp is running 65-68 in the Kennebec. I’m told the kennebec in Waterville is so low that you have to carry your boat across the sand bar, I’ve never seen it that low. Also Waterville is "off" as far as fishing, the trout must be sulking and the stripers went back down the river. Fly

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Dave.  I’ve been thinking about making an overnighter up that direction sometime in the next week or so.  May even stop by the Rapid. How are water levels in the rivers?  Water temps? Dave L.

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Question:

<cruel gastronomic description filleted Hell of a thing to do to a guy at three in the afternoon with nothing edible is sight! But this is the kind of story we like to read.  While mostly a C&R fisherman (Egad, here it comes again!!) I do nevertheless keep enough to treat myself once in a while.  Your description of smoked ducks brings to mind my favorite preparation for trout.  We set them on the Weber, as far from a small pile of glowing coals as possible and leave them for about an hour and a half, all the while adding small amounts of soaked hickory chips to the fire; just enough to keep the smoke going strong.  Sinfully good!  But to top it off (and healthy be damned!) I like to slather on a bit of brie. As for the elk, or any of it’s relatives for that matter, my favorite is still soaking in olive oil for a few hours, wrapping in bacon and grilling over a hot bed of coals until medium rare, at most.  Personally I prefer rare, but most of the people with whom I enjoy this treat like it cooked a bit more.  For those who like to live close to the edge in these diet conscious days, the aforementioned soft cheese can also be applied to red meat. Also……but no, it’ll have to wait for another time….I gotta go get something to eat!

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Actually, last April we dined on a brace of Elk Steaks marinated for

(delicious feast snipped) Omigosh, Larry! If you can’t figure out anything worthwhile to do with your elk, let me know what Wolfgang can’t use and I’ll send you my UPS address! Hate to see it go to waist (sp intentional!). Drooling out loud, Rick

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As for the elk, or any of it’s relatives for that matter, my favorite is still soaking in olive oil for a few hours, wrapping in bacon and grilling over a hot bed of coals until medium rare, at most.  Personally I prefer rare, but most of the people with whom I enjoy this treat like it cooked a bit more.  For those who like to live close to the edge in these diet conscious days, the aforementioned soft cheese can also be applied to red meat.

While simultaneously drooling on my keyboard, I gotta ask: Not that it’s stopped me from slurping down raw oysters or eating my steaks rare, but we’ve all seen the "news magazine" horror stories about contamination of domestic meats; and we’ve all been cautioned about the wisdom of thoroughly cooking our food.   So this "wild meat" thread has me wondering.   Nutritional values aside, is there a similar risk of e-coli or parasitic infection from eating game cooked rare?   Just wondering. Joe F.

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Joe- I’m sure the same concerns exist, especially because this meat isn’t irradiated to kill any potential diseases and like most hunters, the animals are field dressed, packaged well enough to pack out against the heat of one’s body on a frame and kept from thorough refrigeration for a day or more……then brought home in the bed of a truck or some such device. Same’s true for ducks, geese, pheasant, quail, etc….most hunters will bring em home and hang em for a couple of days prior to guttin’ and pluckin’ em…. helps to age the meat some and also makes em easier to dress out…. But with that said, I gotta ALSO say this….I’ve eaten wild game for some 35 years now, on at least 6 occassions a year (not counting the jerky and salame!!) and have NEVER gotten a case of gastrointestinal distention, much less any more disastrous effect from it, aside from gettin’ stuffed like a pig and not knowing when to say ENOUGH!!!  (BTW, Wild Pig is great too!!!) Now to the rest of you…sorry to set y’all to droolin’ in the middle of the day…..just wasn’t a prudent thing to do, I mean someday I KNOW all a y’all will return the favor =)   Especially those of you who have access to CRAWFISH!!!!   Oh yeah….neighbor has a pair of bucks down at the butcher shop as we speak……hee hee hee…. Larry #:)#

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[pared] Now to the rest of you…sorry to set y’all to droolin’ in the middle of the day…..just wasn’t a prudent thing to do, I mean someday I KNOW all a y’all will return the favor =)   Especially those of you who have access to CRAWFISH!!!!   Oh yeah….neighbor has a pair of bucks down at the butcher shop as we speak……hee hee hee….

Geezus Christmas! Between you and Wolfie (and even "Oyster Joe" ;^) I’m dying here! Show some mercy for someone who had to deal with airline food today! /daytripper (rummaging through the ‘fridge…)

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rare, but we’ve all seen the "news magazine" horror stories about

(contamination, etc) wondering.   Nutritional values aside, is there a similar risk of e-coli or parasitic infection from eating game cooked rare?   Just wondering.

Joe, Don’t know how accurate this info is (wouldn’t want anyone getting sick) but during one of the recent e. coli outbreaks, I was reading some "warning" info in the paper. Author seemed to think the problem with rare meat (red meat, not poultry, which has its own caveats) occurs primarily with ground meat as opposed to "cut" meat like steaks, roasts, etc. The advice was based on the idea that bacteria grow on the surface of the meat and are killed by heat, so the "cut" meat can be cooked rare as long as the outside was cooked well. Ground meat becomes a problem as you shape it into patties or whatever because what was once on the surface could be mixed into the interior and therefore you should cook to much greater degree of "doneness" to ensure you got the bugs. Your local ag extension office probably has a nutritionist that can put this to rest. If not, let me know and I’ll check–my brother-in-law is an extension agent and I’m sure has some info available. Anyway, the newspaper article makes sense on the surface, but I’d like to hear other opinions… Cheers, Rick

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If it makes you all feel better, I caught a 12 inch smallmouth bass today. First cast too! Man are they tasty! ……Well, time for supper!

: [pared] : : Now to the rest of you…sorry to set y’all to droolin’ in the middle of : the day…..just wasn’t a prudent thing to do, I mean someday I KNOW all : a y’all will return the favor =)   Especially those of you who have : access to CRAWFISH!!!!   Oh yeah….neighbor has a pair of bucks down at : the butcher shop as we speak……hee hee hee…. : Geezus Christmas! Between you and Wolfie (and even "Oyster Joe" ;^) : I’m dying here! : Show some mercy for someone who had to deal with airline food today! : /daytripper (rummaging through the ‘fridge…) — I’m a Canadian eh!                                              Steve. The FAQ for rec.crafts.metalworking is at: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal The metalworking drop box  is at           http://www.metalworking.com                                     or     http://208.213.200.132 Visit my website at: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~ud233/homepage.htm

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From a river or lake……? do you think it was big enough to have spawned it’s first time….?john

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<good analysis snipped I have thought about this issue long and hard for a long time.  Like Larry, I’ve eaten a lot of game over the years and have never suffered any ill effects from lightly cooked meat.  In fact, I eat venison or some sort of game bird about once a week. Ground meat is obviously more dangerous for the reasons mentioned, i.e. any surface contamination is thoroughly mixed into the center of the mass where the bacteria cannot be killed except by thorough cooking.  But I believe that the problem is exacerbated by the way commercially packaged meat is handled.  The game I eat is processed at home in very small masses.  A couple of birds at a time or a single deer.  Compare this with the beef you just bought at the grocery store.  This package of meat just went down the same line as some hundreds or thousands of pounds of meat processed in the same day.  Any bacterial contamination has all day to grow and multiply.  Add to this the fact that sanitation between days may be less than perfect and you have a situation in which the proliferation of E. choli, Salmonella or other bacteria is virtually assured.  Obviously, contamination can be minimized by scrupulously cleaning all work surfaces but we all know how easy it is for someone to get a little bit careless, especially some underpaid meat cutter bored to distraction by a mindless routine job. In short, it seems to me that, counterintuitively, game processed and packaged at home is likely to be safer than commercially packed meat because it isn’t dragged through the same slime as tons of other meat. Bon Apetit!

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From a lake. There are no smallmouth bass in rivers around here. At 12 inches they have spawned many times!

: From a river or lake……? : do you think it was big enough to have spawned it’s first time….?john — I’m a Canadian eh!                                              Steve. The FAQ for rec.crafts.metalworking is at: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal The metalworking drop box  is at           http://www.metalworking.com                                     or     http://208.213.200.132 Visit my website at: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~ud233/homepage.htm

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snip< Bon Apetit!

Thanks Rick, Larry, Dave, & Wolfgang.   My curiosity, if not my appetite, is satisfied. I think I’ll have some sushi tonight. Joe F. "I always eat my oysters fried. That way I know my oyster’s died."     ….Roy Blount, Jr.

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Hello: My second posting ever…but I could use some suggestions. Am trying to tie the Henry’s Fork hopper……bundled elk or deer hair, extended body, etc. I have a little tourble with purportions but that’ll take time I guess.  But most especially, when reversing the elk hair for the body it seems to break and make a rough tail on the body…which is not what I bought…and don’t want to, anymore! I’ve got the books but need some experience…..’hints & kinks’, etc. Thanks for everything you folks post….I appreciate you! Buff

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I would give it up.  The best hopper imitation I have used, is the old trusty Letort Hopper.  I’ve caught lots of big, streamwise brown trout on that fly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello: My second posting ever…but I could use some suggestions. Am trying to tie the Henry’s Fork hopper……bundled elk or deer hair, extended body, etc. I have a little tourble with purportions but that’ll take time I guess. But most especially, when reversing the elk hair for the body it seems to break and make a rough tail on the body…which is not what I bought…and don’t want to, anymore! I’ve got the books but need some experience…..’hints & kinks’, etc. Thanks for everything you folks post….I appreciate you! Buff

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My first two guesses are: 1) You’re using TOO MUCH hair     try using less first 2) You’re using the wrong hair or old hair     if it’s from the wrong part of the elk or it’s old, it’ll break when you bend/fold it Larry #:)#

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My first two guesses are: 1) You’re using TOO MUCH hair    try using less first 2) You’re using the wrong hair or old hair    if it’s from the wrong part of the elk or it’s old, it’ll break when you bend/fold it Larry #:)#

I agree with Larry on #2.  Also might be the wrong thread.  If the thread is too small it will cut through the hair as well. Warren

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My first two guesses are: 1) You’re using TOO MUCH hair    try using less first 2) You’re using the wrong hair or old hair    if it’s from the wrong part of the elk or it’s old, it’ll break when you bend/fold it Larry #:)# I agree with Larry on #2.  Also might be the wrong thread.  If the thread is too small it will cut through the hair as well. Warren

_______  Warren?  Good point.  Larry Madina also has the perfect suggestion but he didn’t say what area on an Elk is best.  Let’s look at the Wapiti or deer family of different animals. 1) There are many different ways to tie Deer Hair style Caddis patterns.  Many. 2) The hair on herbivores (from the ground, up) on the legs or shins, it is thinnest and smallest in diameter.  Also around the face and/or mask area. 3) The largest diameter hair is around the belly.  The belly is the boiler room and contains a lot of blood and needs to be kept warm because it also is the area that has the largest surface area on herbivores that must survive in freezing outdoor temperatures.  This hair is also the thickest and has large, hollow hairs.  Air inside these belly hairs is a dramatic insulator against cold.  The hair also contains a lot of underdubbing/fur/matting/etc. that is a ‘blanket’ against wind.  It is what keeps wind from getting THRU the hair and against the skin/hide.  It is an interesting study in nature’s engineering. The hollowness of Elk hair, when you spin certain patterns such as muddler heads, when you bear down with the tying thread is what makes it explode or open up.  This ‘kinking’ is nothing more then a way to make the hair do what you want it to do.  Shin hairs do not flair out like the hollower hairs around the belly of elk and/or deer. The hair on the back of herbivores is also thin in diameter and not as thick.  Why?  I cannot but venture a guess.  Its not necessary because the body heat inside happens to keep the roof dry, sort of speaking. This is also a good area or source for selecting Elk hair. 4)  When one is in a fly shop, you have to know what you’re looking at with each package which has but a small piece of and entire Elk inside it.  You need to know what is leg hair, what is belly hair, what is neck hair, what is facial hair, what is back hair, what is flank hair, etc. And so it goes. Elk Hair patterns seldom use large diameter Elk Hair.  I usually use the back and most often leg hair.  The Caddis wing only needs to flair just a little.  It is not necessary to fold it back after tying it in at the head/forward.  These are not hollow hairs and when Ginked, its enough to float a caddis that has no hollow Elk or Deer Hair.  I tie a great many of my Caddis Patterns with Mule Deer because I happen to like the black and coloration of Mule Deer above all things regarding ‘Caddis’. However; Elk Hair comes in colors and shadings other then blonde.   So when fly tiers are talking HOW TO tie any pattern, the industry at large should start stating WHAT part of an Elk/Deer they are using. This is vital information but somehow, everyone seems to not think its important.  I, on the other hand think it is vital, if anyone is to tie a fly that has ‘the proper signature’ of that offered by its author. To Larry Madina, who I think is an above average fly tier, I hope you can agree that this information is proper regarding flies tied with the hairs from herbivores.  That being more specific is indeed, rather important. Hope this helps Warren the cause of tying really great Caddis Patterns. Lets face it. Throughout most trout rivers and streams, its really "The Caddis" that is king. We can discuss it more over at the camp site some evening.  Hours between 1700 PDT and 2000 EST.   Gink Keeps It Up — Mr. G.   http://www.gink.com/chat   "Flyfisherman’s Camp Fires Burning" Fly Fishing’s Talking Camp Site  

Question:

[rip...] Boulder: A prime reason to resume above-ground nuclear weapons testing.

What do you think Rocky Flats is there for ? — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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I have a good friend who is going to the Boulder, CO, area around Labor Day and would like to know what’s available for fly fishing.  Do you have any information on rivers/streams and guide services?  Any information would be appreciated.  Thanks.

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I have a good friend who is going to the Boulder, CO, area around Labor Day and would like to know what’s available for fly fishing.  Do you have any information on rivers/streams and guide services?  Any information would be appreciated.  Thanks.

if you read john gierach, you would get a pretty good idea of what the area is like…it is his haunt and he does talk about it a lot… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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I have a good friend who is going to the Boulder, CO, area around Labor Day and would like to know what’s available for fly fishing.  Do you have any information on rivers/streams and guide services?  Any information would be appreciated.  Thanks. Saw Hill Ponds, off 75th st. in Boulder.  Big bluegill and lots of bass, some very large.  I know it ain’t trout, but the panfish action will be great this time of year.  Tell him to walk to the back ponds. JE

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: I have a good friend who is going to the Boulder, CO, area around Labor : Day and would like to know what’s available for fly fishing.  Do you have : any information on rivers/streams and guide services?  Any information : would be appreciated.  Thanks. Right under the library downtown.  I believe I’ve seen that big fish from Vail there… I guess it makes road trips.  (Will I ever stop flogging this horse?) — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: I have a good friend who is going to the Boulder, CO, area around Labor : Day and would like to know what’s available for fly fishing.  Do you have : any information on rivers/streams and guide services?  Any information : would be appreciated.  Thanks. Right under the library downtown.  I believe I’ve seen that big fish from Vail there… I guess it makes road trips.  (Will I ever stop flogging this horse?)

If you go under the library, or downstream at the observatory, make sure it is well after midnight…those literary types get all bent out of shape when you creel a couple for dinner in front of them… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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: I have a good friend who is going to the Boulder, CO, area around Labor : Day and would like to know what’s available for fly fishing.  Do you have : any information on rivers/streams and guide services?  Any information : would be appreciated.  Thanks. Right under the library downtown.  I believe I’ve seen that big fish from Vail there… I guess it makes road trips.  (Will I ever stop flogging this horse?) If you go under the library, or downstream at the observatory, make sure it is well after midnight…those literary types get all bent out of shape when you creel a couple for dinner in front of them…

I would not try to smoke any tobacco products either.  They get pretty testy about that shit.  Noone will bug you if you decide to spark up a Fat One:-) though, in fact they may want to join you. I would also avoid taking dumpsters, lighting them on fire, and then rolling them down The Hill at policemen. You can, however, get away with murder in that town.  If you do kill someone, the police will posture for months and then bust some poor homeless guy on drugs instead. Boulder: A prime reason to resume above-ground nuclear weapons testing. </chaz

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Question:

I am going to visit my daughter in Lansdale, PA over March 8 for a few days. I have fished the Little LeHigh a couple of times but would like the names of other streams which are open this time of the year and fairly close to Lansdale since I have use of her car between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. while she is working. What patterns might be useful at this time of year.  Thanks in advance.   Jim

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I am going to visit my daughter in Lansdale, PA over March 8 for a few days. I have fished the Little LeHigh a couple of times but would like the names of other streams which are open this time of the year and fairly close to Lansdale since I have use of her car between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. while she is working. What patterns might be useful at this time of year.  Thanks in advance.   Jim

Jim, the trout season will not be open here at that time of year.  Your only bet for flyfishing at that time of year is to try some of the many special regulation areas that are open year-round.  These will be listed in your fishing regulation summary that you get when you buy your license.  I’d try to stick to the spring creeks that time of year, (Little Lehigh, Valley, and Monocacy), as the freestoners are not at their best yet.

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Question:

I am going to be in the Dominican Republic in the next month.  Has anyone heard of any fly fishing there, either fresh or salt water?  Any information would be appreciated.

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I am going to be in the Dominican Republic in the next month.  Has anyone heard of any fly fishing there, either fresh or salt water?  Any information would be appreciated.

Chris, I lived in the DR for a couple of years back in the 60s. Can’t say there would be much freshwater flyfishing; it’d be dangerous in any case. The fresh water streams are infected with Bilharzia. The eastern end of the island has a nice relatively shallow bay, Samana, bordered on the north and south by the eastern ends of the Cordillera Septentrional and the Cordillera Central. It is (or was) a great area for scuba diving, and probably is for fishing, too. Good luck. I envy you, especially at this time of year. Luther

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Thanks for the information.  By the way, what is Bilharzia?   It sounds like some kind of unpleasant parasite and doesn’t seem encouraging for any backcountry exploration.     – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going to be in the Dominican Republic in the next month.  Has anyone heard of any fly fishing there, either fresh or salt water?  Any information would be appreciated. Chris, I lived in the DR for a couple of years back in the 60s. Can’t say there would be much freshwater flyfishing; it’d be dangerous in any case. The fresh water streams are infected with Bilharzia. The eastern end of the island has a nice relatively shallow bay, Samana, bordered on the north and south by the eastern ends of the Cordillera Septentrional and the Cordillera Central. It is (or was) a great area for scuba diving, and probably is for fishing, too. Good luck. I envy you, especially at this time of year. Luther

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Question:

I have the opportunity to take a "Flyfishing Seminar" in southern Mississippi with Mel Kreiger.  Since ther is little or no freshwater fishing nearby (at least this time of year), I’m assuming the seminar will be concerned mostly with casting.  As a novice who has taken some casting classes i could probably use the help. The problem is the $$$.  They want $175 for each one day session.  The money is donated to a very good cause (the Crosby Arboretum), but it’s still half the cost of a new rod… Anybody out there had any experinece with Mel’s casting classes?  Is it likely to be worth the money? Please let me know ASAP as the price goes up to $225 on the first (yikes, that’s tomorrow…) Many thanks, Bob McAnulty

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have the opportunity to take a "Flyfishing Seminar" in southern Mississippi with Mel Kreiger.  Since ther is little or no freshwater fishing nearby (at least this time of year), I’m assuming the seminar will be concerned mostly with casting.  As a novice who has taken some casting classes i could probably use the help. The problem is the $$$.  They want $175 for each one day session. The money is donated to a very good cause (the Crosby Arboretum), but it’s still half the cost of a new rod… Anybody out there had any experinece with Mel’s casting classes?  Is it likely to be worth the money?

I had the opportunity to take a Mel Krieger seminar for free (through Golden  West Women Flyfishers in S.F.), where Mel’s wife, Fanny, is a member.   Although there were a lot of people, and little personalized attention from Mel, it was still very useful (and I am a pretty good caster already).  If you can spend the money, I think Mel Krieger is a great casting instructor.  If you can’t afford the class, at least buy the  "Essence of Flycasting Video."  I like to just review it every  once in a while to keep my casting sharp.   If you are a novice, with some casting experience, I think Mel will  have you throwing a tight loop and double-hauling by the end of the day. John

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For my money Mel is the best casting instructor anywhere.  I have known him for 20 years and have seen him teach many times.  He even taught me.  I still try to find time to spend with him to break the bad habits I pick up along the way.  He has written several books and has at least two videos.

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I honestly cannot attest to Mel’s "live" presentation, but I will say that I learned a lot from his videotapes on casting. The problem, as I see it, with live seminars and to a certain extent, videos, is that each "master" has his own style of casting. There is no one way to cast, and learning other casting styles after a basic motion is mastered is much easier than trying to learn from a "Master." I do like Mel’s casting style. My recommendation is to buy his video on ADVANCED Fly Casting: this will save you $150 over the cost of the seminar; and you can make a worthwhile contribution to the Crosby Arberitum as an added – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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I do like Mel’s casting style. My recommendation is to buy his video on ADVANCED Fly Casting: this will save you $150 over the cost of the

seminar. I disagree.  Buy the Essence of Flycasting tape, rather than Essence II.   Essence has the basics, plus some advanced material.  Essence II has some things that may not be useful to the mainstream (spey casting, etc.). This advice only applies if you’re going to buy one tape.  Best bet is to buy them both.

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I’m assuming the seminar will be concerned mostly with casting.  As a novice who has taken some casting classes i could probably use the help.

Yes it is and he is superb.                           Dan

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The problem, as I see it, with live seminars and to a certain extent, videos, is that each "master" has his own style of casting. There is no one way to cast, and learning other casting styles after a basic motion is mastered is much easier than trying to learn from a "Master." I do like Mel’s casting style. My recommendation is to buy his video on ADVANCED Fly Casting: this will save you $150 over the cost of the seminar; and you can make a worthwhile contribution to the Crosby Arberitum as an added

Regardless how you do it, if you move the rod correctly you will get a good cast.   However, the "style" that Mel teaches is efficient, accurate and repeatable all day long without causing soreness or injury.  I espouse this style of casting as I have found it the best for the reasons just stated.  His tapes are superb, however I would recommend "Essence Of FlyCasting" as the best for a novice, and Essence 2 for tournament style casting and 2 handed rod casting. NEITHER of the tapes is a substitute for instruction from the man!!  A competent instructor is far superior to any tape out there because his instruction is personalized to your needs. Price is the difference here.                                                           Dan

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: Suggest you try just below the "Glory Hole," where Putah Creek exits Lake Berryessa, (that is to say, below the damn dam), fishing nymphs down and across the broken water, merrily, merrily.  Some years (10?) ago, I was fishing here in the rain on a cold day in midwinter, got skunked, but did see a lure-slinger  walking out with fish the size of my leg.  Wondered why he would kill such a fine trout, ‘less he was skared of it!  But I would be wary of anybody who tells you Putah Creek is a "Trophy Trout Stream."  It’s just the only semblance of a moving-water trout-type flyfishing option close-in to the Bay Area, and for that, I guess we must be grateful. Sorry to disagree but there are lots of folks (none tyros) who would classify Putah Creek a trophy fishery. Its a tailwater stream that holds many fish, many large, few  pushovers. I don’t know if that qualifies as a "trophy" fishery but it ain’t a muddy, put-and-take slough.

Last I heard, Putah was officially classified as a "Trophy Trout Stream" by the state of California.  This qualifies it for special environmental protection, and special fishing regs.  They stock "put and take" rainbows down in the Solano Lake end, and there is a resident population of browns and land locked steelhead living from the head of lake Solano to the dam at lake Berryessa.  I’ve never gotten one of the giants, but I’ve seen several trout over 25" there in the water.         Putah is an interesting creek.  From Berryessa to Solano it is a great peice of water.  Cold water, good oxygenation, nice holes large bouldered bottom providing plenty of pocket water.  Lake Solano is a big evaporation pond.  There is a dam at the lower end of the lake, and during the summer, in dry years, there is no flow from it.  I’ve found the stream below Solano bone dry in some summers.  In a wet year, the creek flows on and eventually spreads out and sinks into the ground in the middle of the Sacramento cosway.  When you drive from Davis to Sac across the cosway, look to your right across the rice fields.  There is a peculiar patch of trees and scrub.  That is the termination point of Putah creek!         It’s been a while since I lived in Cali, but Putah was my training ground.  Don’t badmouth it just because your not competent enough to catch any of the multitude of giant (but extremely selective) trout that live there. Enjoy this gift of nature and preserve it for future generations. . Lenny Bloksberg . .

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writes: Suggest you try just below the "Glory Hole," where Putah Creek exits Lake Berryessa, (that is to say, below the damn dam), fishing nymphs down and across the broken water, merrily, merrily.  Some years (10?) ago, I was fishing here in the rain on a cold day in midwinter, got skunked, but did see a lure-slinger  walking out with fish the size of my leg.  Wondered why he would kill such a fine trout, ‘less he was skared of it!  But I would be wary of anybody who tells you Putah Creek is a "Trophy Trout Stream."  It’s just the only semblance of a moving-water trout-type flyfishing option close-in to the Bay Area, and for that, I guess we must be grateful.

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writes: Suggest you try just below the "Glory Hole," where Putah Creek exits Lake Berryessa, (that is to say, below the damn dam), fishing nymphs down and across the broken water, merrily, merrily.  Some years (10?) ago, I was fishing here in the rain on a cold day in midwinter, got skunked, but did see a lure-slinger  walking out with fish the size of my leg.  Wondered why he would kill such a fine trout, ‘less he was skared of it!  But I would be wary of anybody who tells you Putah Creek is a "Trophy Trout Stream."  It’s just the only semblance of a moving-water trout-type flyfishing option close-in to the Bay Area, and for that, I guess we must be grateful.

Sorry to disagree but there are lots of folks (none tyros) who would classify Putah Creek a trophy fishery. Its a tailwater stream that holds many fish, many large, few  pushovers. I don’t know if that qualifies as a "trophy" fishery but it ain’t a muddy, put-and-take slough.

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I hear Putah creek is a trophy trout stream.  I fished it about 1 month ago with some success on 18-20 prince nymphs.  I saw no fish over 8". Steam side brush made casting near impossible.  There were few pockets from which to cast from.  Wading was difficult due to the changing deapth of water and varying stream flows throughout the length of the creek starting just outside of Winters.  Does anyone know how and where to fish this water?

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