Question:

.. how hard is it to get a hook up in the national forest  ( my cousines father is 80 and in poor health) i dont want to run a generator and make a lot of noise

  None of the NF campgrounds have power, period. — Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read RV and Camping FAQ can be found at http://kendaco.telebyte.com/rlindber/RV

Response:

Im going to go fly fishing in gallatin nat forest can anyone help with any first hand knowledge will be takeing a 30 foot class A   is a dingy necessary ? how hard is it to get a hook up ( my cousines father is 80 and in poor health) i dont want to run a generator and make a lot of noise thank you glenn   please send email to

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Im going to go fly fishing in gallatin nat forest (july3 to 16 aprox) can anyone help with any first hand knowledge will be takeing a 30 foot class A   is a dingy necessary ? how hard is it to get a hook up in the national forest  ( my cousines father is 80 and in poor health) i dont want to run a generator and make a lot of noise thank you glenn   please send email to

Response:

Im going to go fly fishing in gallatin nat forest can anyone help with any first hand knowledge will be takeing a 30 foot class A   is a dingy necessary ? how hard is it to get a hook up ( my cousines father is 80 and in poor health) i dont want to run a generator and make a lot of noise

there who is familiar with the area. Just click on the URL above, it’ll take you there directly without having to "subscribe" to the newsgroup.

Response:

Im going to go fly fishing in gallatin nat forest

  When? (I’d ask why, since I wouldn’t bother any more) can anyone help with any first hand knowledge

  Yes will be takeing a 30 foot class A   is a dingy necessary ?

  Where are you planning to stay? how hard is it to get a hook up ( my cousines father is 80 and in poor health) i dont want to run a generator and make a lot of noise

  The only place I am recalling with power is the KOA at Bozeman Hotsprings (which also gives you access to the springs pools) —

Response:

Question:

"Bass Boss"  wrote…  Stop for a few seconds to light a cigarette or something, with my fly or a lure just dangling in the water right beside me and the fish (smallmouth bass) will swim right up and take the fly or lure.

Shhh!  That’s a fishn’ secret! I’ve noticed that all kinds of crap goes floating down the stream, some of it, such as puffy seeds, looks a lot like my fly.  Some insects, like water striders, get totally ignored.  Your fly has to stand out as something the fish really does want to eat.  When your fly is hanging motionless in a moving stream, it is already standing out as something different.  Impart a little twitch and that could do it. I’ve caught many fish after making a really bad cast, and just pulling the line in to give it another shot.  Whack!  It’s a somewhat guilty pleasure, as at that point I was only trying to get some line in to make a better cast. Timothy Juvenal

Response:

Heh…I remember the first smally I caught right here by my home in the Kishwaukee river…I had my first fly rod and was trying to cast..with no instruction, what a mess. I had this big clump of line all tangled about me with the end of the line like 20 feet away; I was doing my best to untangle myself..I finally got the mess figured out and low and behold there was a little smally at the end. By no means the biggest..heck..coulde of been the smallest, but no matter what; he was the most memorable. My first fish on a fly rod. Hell, a few months later I finally even figured out how to cast! Tim Apple

Response:

This is what Ragnar up at Great Slave Lake refers to as a "Big Fish Maneuver".  Lighting a cigarette, digging out a sandwich, but the real killer is setting the rod down and pissing over the side of the boat.  A sure fire technique for getting a strike on a slow day. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is something that never ceases to amaze me. I could cast to fish all day long and not get a bite. Stop for a few seconds to light a cigarette or something, with my fly or a lure just dangling in the water right beside me and the fish (smallmouth bass) will swim right up and take the fly or lure.And I mean I’ve actually had fish swim right up between my legs to take a fly. Trying to imitate that out where one would cast to is pretty hard. With the current flowing, how can one stop a fly in the river, just pause it for a few seconds, so the fish will take it? To be able to put a fly in their face and keep it there just long enough to make them eat it. If it goes on by, they won’t touch it. But to hang for a few seconds…       Iv’e actually had fish take a fly that got snagged on a rock. They’ll just swim right up and pick it off the rock. But to cast to these fish and let the fly drift… They don’t want it. Amazing sometimes…

Response:

Hi Jamie and Group I often fish Shad on the same pool as Jamie. The Lahave is a Salmon River so you must use unweighted flies and get them down. Makes for interesting fishing. One evening in June I was standing in the river, water to my knees fishing shad when a dragon fly light on my waders. About 12 – 15 in above water level. I was admiring its colors when the water brobe and a nice Bass jumped up and grabby it riight there. Talk about needing to go ashore to tie on flies. It hit me quite hard but susprise was the biggest thing. See you all in June at the Shad Hole Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is something that never ceases to amaze me. I could cast to fish all day long and not get a bite. Stop for a few seconds to light a cigarette or something, with my fly or a lure just dangling in the water right beside me and the fish (smallmouth bass) will swim right up and take the fly or lure.And I mean I’ve actually had fish swim right up between my legs to take a fly. Trying to imitate that out where one would cast to is pretty hard. With the current flowing, how can one stop a fly in the river, just pause it for a few seconds, so the fish will take it? To be able to put a fly in their face and keep it there just long enough to make them eat it. If it goes on by, they won’t touch it. But to hang for a few seconds…       Iv’e actually had fish take a fly that got snagged on a rock. They’ll just swim right up and pick it off the rock. But to cast to these fish and let the fly drift… They don’t want it. Amazing sometimes… <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    < <    <    <    <    <    < Joe, Thanks for the info on the flies. If you could please take a picture of the fly you described I would be very grateful. I fish my flies on a floating line. I cast directly across the current and let it swing down, watching closely for any "slow downs". Once the line is fully extended downstream I raise the road about 3 feet then slowly drop it in a continuous rhythm. Very similar to jigging with spinning gear and a heavy spoon. I stop pulsing the rod to take up line about every 6 feet. Actually, I’ve caught many just holding my leader and dangling the flies to fish holding in front of me. They have no fear of a man standing relatively still in the river. This is a great way to see what they prefer. Thanks Joe. Get me that picture! — Regards, Jamie  8^) http://users.andara.com/~jbheim I’m trying to put together a gallery of these flies. If any of you have any flies that you have used successfully let me know please. I’m looking for originals as well as standards. I have a few at my site now if any one would like to have a look. Here (MD) there’s been one "magic bullet" fly for hickory shad year after year, & I’ll try to remember to take a pic for you.  (Simple tie:  #8 hook, tinsel body, red & yellow marabou wing, red thread head) Oddly enough, last spring during the run, I couldn’t catch shit on it. The guy upstream from me was killin’ ‘em on a little green number, about size 10, similar to the bead head dart on your page. Interestingly, the Eel River flies look ver similar, if not identical, to the Lazer Egg (http://www.angelfire.com/wa/salmonid/fly48.html) steelhead fly. Out of curiosity, how do you fish yours?  Sinking line? Sink tip?   Dead drift?   Swing? Joe F. already thinking ahead to April

Response:

See you there Paul. Your story reminds me of a few times I’ve seen smallies jump on shore after dragonflies. The smaller ones are so aggressive they are almost suicidal. — Regards, Jamie  8^) http://users.andara.com/~jbheim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Jamie and Group I often fish Shad on the same pool as Jamie. The Lahave is a Salmon River so you must use unweighted flies and get them down. Makes for interesting fishing. One evening in June I was standing in the river, water to my knees fishing shad when a dragon fly light on my waders. About 12 – 15 in above water level. I was admiring its colors when the water brobe and a nice Bass jumped up and grabby it riight there. Talk about needing to go ashore to tie on flies. It hit me quite hard but susprise was the biggest thing. See you all in June at the Shad Hole Paul That is something that never ceases to amaze me. I could cast to fish all day long and not get a bite. Stop for a few seconds to light a cigarette or something, with my fly or a lure just dangling in the water right beside me and the fish (smallmouth bass) will swim right up and take the fly or lure.And I mean I’ve actually had fish swim right up between my legs to take a fly. Trying to imitate that out where one would cast to is pretty hard. With the current flowing, how can one stop a fly in the river, just pause it for a few seconds, so the fish will take it? To be able to put a fly in their face and keep it there just long enough to make them eat it. If it goes on by, they won’t touch it. But to hang for a few seconds… Iv’e actually had fish take a fly that got snagged on a rock. They’ll just swim right up and pick it off the rock. But to cast to these fish and let the fly drift… They don’t want it. Amazing sometimes… <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    < < <    <    <    <    <    < Joe, Thanks for the info on the flies. If you could please take a picture of the fly you described I would be very grateful. I fish my flies on a floating line. I cast directly across the current and let it swing down, watching closely for any "slow downs". Once the line is fully extended downstream I raise the road about 3 feet then slowly drop it in a continuous rhythm. Very similar to jigging with spinning gear and a heavy spoon. I stop pulsing the rod to take up line about every 6 feet. Actually, I’ve caught many just holding my leader and dangling the flies to fish holding in front of me. They have no fear of a man standing relatively still in the river. This is a great way to see what they prefer. Thanks Joe. Get me that picture! — Regards, Jamie  8^) http://users.andara.com/~jbheim I’m trying to put together a gallery of these flies. If any of you have any flies that you have used successfully let me know please. I’m looking for originals as well as standards. I have a few at my site now if any one would like to have a look. Here (MD) there’s been one "magic bullet" fly for hickory shad year after year, & I’ll try to remember to take a pic for you.  (Simple tie: #8 hook, tinsel body, red & yellow marabou wing, red thread head) Oddly enough, last spring during the run, I couldn’t catch shit on it. The guy upstream from me was killin’ ‘em on a little green number, about size 10, similar to the bead head dart on your page. Interestingly, the Eel River flies look ver similar, if not identical, to the Lazer Egg (http://www.angelfire.com/wa/salmonid/fly48.html) steelhead fly. Out of curiosity, how do you fish yours?  Sinking line? Sink tip? Dead drift?   Swing? Joe F. already thinking ahead to April

Response:

That is something that never ceases to amaze me. I could cast to fish all day long and not get a bite. Stop for a few seconds to light a cigarette or something, with my fly or a lure just dangling in the water right beside me and the fish (smallmouth bass) will swim right up and take the fly or lure.And I mean I’ve actually had fish swim right up between my legs to take a fly. Trying to imitate that out where one would cast to is pretty hard. With the current flowing, how can one stop a fly in the river, just pause it for a few seconds, so the fish will take it? To be able to put a fly in their face and keep it there just long enough to make them eat it. If it goes on by, they won’t touch it. But to hang for a few seconds…       Iv’e actually had fish take a fly that got snagged on a rock. They’ll just swim right up and pick it off the rock. But to cast to these fish and let the fly drift… They don’t want it. Amazing sometimes… <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    <    < <    <    <    <    <    <

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe, Thanks for the info on the flies. If you could please take a picture of the fly you described I would be very grateful. I fish my flies on a floating line. I cast directly across the current and let it swing down, watching closely for any "slow downs". Once the line is fully extended downstream I raise the road about 3 feet then slowly drop it in a continuous rhythm. Very similar to jigging with spinning gear and a heavy spoon. I stop pulsing the rod to take up line about every 6 feet. Actually, I’ve caught many just holding my leader and dangling the flies to fish holding in front of me. They have no fear of a man standing relatively still in the river. This is a great way to see what they prefer. Thanks Joe. Get me that picture! — Regards, Jamie  8^) http://users.andara.com/~jbheim I’m trying to put together a gallery of these flies. If any of you have any flies that you have used successfully let me know please. I’m looking for originals as well as standards. I have a few at my site now if any one would like to have a look. Here (MD) there’s been one "magic bullet" fly for hickory shad year after year, & I’ll try to remember to take a pic for you.  (Simple tie:  #8 hook, tinsel body, red & yellow marabou wing, red thread head) Oddly enough, last spring during the run, I couldn’t catch shit on it. The guy upstream from me was killin’ ‘em on a little green number, about size 10, similar to the bead head dart on your page. Interestingly, the Eel River flies look ver similar, if not identical, to the Lazer Egg (http://www.angelfire.com/wa/salmonid/fly48.html) steelhead fly. Out of curiosity, how do you fish yours?  Sinking line? Sink tip?   Dead drift?   Swing? Joe F. already thinking ahead to April

Response:

I’m trying to put together a gallery of these flies. If any of you have any

flies that you have used successfully let me know please. I’m looking for originals as well as standards. I have a few at my site now if any one would like to have a look. Here (MD) there’s been one "magic bullet" fly for hickory shad year after year, & I’ll try to remember to take a pic for you.  (Simple tie:  #8 hook, tinsel body, red & yellow marabou wing, red thread head) Oddly enough, last spring during the run, I couldn’t catch shit on it.   The guy upstream from me was killin’ ‘em on a little green number, about size 10, similar to the bead head dart on your page. Interestingly, the Eel River flies look ver similar, if not identical, to the Lazer Egg (http://www.angelfire.com/wa/salmonid/fly48.html) steelhead fly. Out of curiosity, how do you fish yours?  Sinking line? Sink tip?   Dead drift?   Swing? Joe F. already thinking ahead to April

Response:

Joe, Thanks for the info on the flies. If you could please take a picture of the fly you described I would be very grateful. I fish my flies on a floating line. I cast directly across the current and let it swing down, watching closely for any "slow downs". Once the line is fully extended downstream I raise the road about 3 feet then slowly drop it in a continuous rhythm. Very similar to jigging with spinning gear and a heavy spoon. I stop pulsing the rod to take up line about every 6 feet. Actually, I’ve caught many just holding my leader and dangling the flies to fish holding in front of me. They have no fear of a man standing relatively still in the river. This is a great way to see what they prefer. Thanks Joe. Get me that picture! — Regards, Jamie  8^) http://users.andara.com/~jbheim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m trying to put together a gallery of these flies. If any of you have any flies that you have used successfully let me know please. I’m looking for originals as well as standards. I have a few at my site now if any one would like to have a look. Here (MD) there’s been one "magic bullet" fly for hickory shad year after year, & I’ll try to remember to take a pic for you.  (Simple tie:  #8 hook, tinsel body, red & yellow marabou wing, red thread head) Oddly enough, last spring during the run, I couldn’t catch shit on it. The guy upstream from me was killin’ ‘em on a little green number, about size 10, similar to the bead head dart on your page. Interestingly, the Eel River flies look ver similar, if not identical, to the Lazer Egg (http://www.angelfire.com/wa/salmonid/fly48.html) steelhead fly. Out of curiosity, how do you fish yours?  Sinking line? Sink tip?   Dead drift?   Swing? Joe F. already thinking ahead to April

Response:

Jamie, Just gotta say, thats a pretty smally on your page, you take the photo yourself? The color is great. Tim Apple

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Joe,

Response:

Thanks Tim,     I can’t claim that pic however. I got that off the web a couple of years ago. It was on a site that just had pictures of differen’t fish. No caption or anything. I fell in love with it right away. — Regards, Jamie  8^) http://users.andara.com/~jbheim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jamie, Just gotta say, thats a pretty smally on your page, you take the photo yourself? The color is great. Tim Apple Joe,

Response:

Question:

am thinking about purchasing either Pamlico Excel (adding the fishing opption)

I purchased a Pungo for fishing last spring, and spent quite a few summer evenings on small lakes in my area.  I am more than pleased with it.  It’s quite stable and easy to paddle.  It’s hull has hard chines, so you won’t be turning on a dime, but it tracks well. You have to be a bit careful where you position the rod holder.  That’s the one piece of equipment that could get in the way of your paddling.  E-mail me if you’d like more info. Chuck

Response:

Thanks for the reply, did you buy the your boat with the fishing package installed? I have never used a kayak and need to be able to also paddle upstream on slow flowing river, so you think this boat is still a good choice? thanks pjb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – am thinking about purchasing either Pamlico Excel (adding the fishing opption) I purchased a Pungo for fishing last spring, and spent quite a few summer evenings on small lakes in my area.  I am more than pleased with it. It’s quite stable and easy to paddle.  It’s hull has hard chines, so you won’t be turning on a dime, but it tracks well. You have to be a bit careful where you position the rod holder. That’s the one piece of equipment that could get in the way of your paddling.  E- mail me if you’d like more info. Chuck

Response:

Thanks for the reply, did you buy the your boat with the fishing package installed? I have never used a kayak and need to be able to also paddle upstream on slow flowing river, so you think this boat is still a good choice? thanks pjb

Paul: I installed the the package myself.  Nothing to it.  As far as paddling upstream on a slow flowing river, that should be no problem.   What kind of fishing do you have in mind?  Also, do you live anywhere near Wisconsin by any chance.  There’ll be some good deals on Pungos at a kayak show there in the near future (no I’m not selling). Chuck

Response:

I HAVE THE PUNGO  WITH OUT THE FISHING OPTION I LOVE IT ITS STABLE AND IT HAS PLENTY OF ROOM FOR MY FLY FISHIG GEAR ITS A GOOD BOAT  EASY TO HANDLE AND CONTROLL AND YA GOTA LOVE THE LARGE OPENING IN IT I PERSONALY WOULD PICK THE COLOR YOU WANT AND ADD THE EXTRAS AS YOU SEE YOU NEED THEM BOU IF YOU WANT TO STAND UP TO CAST YOU MIGHT WANT TO CHECK OUT WWW.TRIBALANCE.COM BUT I CAST A 8 FT FLY ROD SITTING DOW OUT OF MY PUNGO GOOD UCK SIK

Response:

I am thinking about purchasing either Pamlico Excel (adding the fishing opption) or the Pungo Angler.  First does anyone have a used one they would like to sell? Second, what do you think of either of these boats? Third, how stable are they and are they good to fish out of? Fourth, does the added fishing hardware get in they way of paddling? Last, How difficult is the Pamlico Excel to paddle solo? Any Help? Thanks

Response:

I am thinking about purchasing either Pamlico Excel (adding the fishing opption) or the Pungo Angler.  First does anyone have a used one they would like to sell?

I have used them both before.  I used to sell these for a living. Second, what do you think of either of these boats?

I think you have made excellent choices in both boats.  The Pungo seems to have been the most popular with fisherman in my past seeling days. Third, how stable are they and are they good to fish out of?

Very stable and very good to fish out of.  They both have excellent initial and secondary stability. Fourth, does the added fishing hardware get in they way of paddling?

No.  Just don’t add it where you think it may get in the way.  You can add as much hardwear as you want to make the boat’s use exactly for what you want to use it for. Last, How difficult is the Pamlico Excel to paddle solo?

It’s not hard at all but turning it is a bit harder on your own just because of it’s length.  On top of that you can take another person or even a dog with you at anytime you want.  That’s the negative of the Pungo.  The positive is that it will turn easier than the Pamlico. Courtney

Response:

Question:

A couple of young ladies from the college are taking Mac Browns fly fishing class  and they want to come over an talk about the size of rods.

The instructor probably told them "There’s nothing like holding a nice, stiff rod in your hands."  (Direct quote by the way from an instructor I heard several years ago.) Regards, Jeff

Response:

They will probably want to put article in school newspaper  after Big Dale and I meat with them  and offer sage adventure suggestions.

        after you and big dale "meat" with them, their next stop will undoubtedly be the district attorney’s office.  you know about your miranda rights and my phone number, don’t you?       Was going to kill Old Bob { the burro] today but he must of pooped out during the night. I chased the buzzards away this morning and my  squaw is  hanging parts on trees outside to cure. Chili will be ready for everyone Tuesday night. Indian Joe  Wilmington NC

        my god.  my first meal at the clave is likely to be the last meal of my life.         wayno, serious as a cerebral hemmorrage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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out during the night. I chased the buzzards away this morning and my squaw is  hanging parts on trees outside to cure. Chili will be ready for everyone Tuesday night.  Indian Joe  Wilmington NC

IJ, looking forward to the chili!  If I see anything along the road on the way down which might compliment the fixin’s I’ll be sure and scrape it up and throw it in the trunk.  Now, no more of those "my rod is bigger’n your rod"  "is not" "is too" "is not" "is too" discussions. After all, size doesn’t matter, its the technique! — Wayne To fish is human….To release Divine! Before you buy.

Response:

It was touch and go for quite a while with my plans changing daily, but now all has come to a final resolution and I will be able to attend the "MAY CLAVE". I will miss the BBQ but will be there for the CHILI. Plan to leave Monday morning and arrive in Foscoe early afternoon. I have also finally fully recovered from a bout with the Chernobyl computer virus that wiped out my HD. Really looking forward to meeting, fishing and learning. jim

Response:

 Really looking forward to meeting, fishing and learning. jim

        so, obviously, you have post-clave plans.  but we’re happy to have you, anyway. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

so, obviously, you have post-clave plans.   wayno

Who could pass up a chance to meet "The rain man" (Ken) or fish with local "Legends" (Walt and Jeff) and learn to "Tie a flat turkey" (Dave La) My other option was hemorrhoid surgery…..it was a tough decision. jim

Response:

Taking ‘em out or putting ‘em in?                 Frank Reid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My other option was hemorrhoid surgery…..it was a tough decision. jim

Response:

Really looking forward to meeting, fishing and learning. jim    so, obviously, you have post-clave plans.  but we’re happy to have you, anyway.

You beat me to the punchline – it was begging for it, wasn’t it? Regards, Jeff

Response:

So Jim, you’re saying you have to choose between assholes? <bseg Frank Church – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so, obviously, you have post-clave plans.   wayno Who could pass up a chance to meet "The rain man" (Ken) or fish with local "Legends" (Walt and Jeff) and learn to "Tie a flat turkey" (Dave La) My other option was hemorrhoid surgery…..it was a tough decision. jim

Response:

 Really looking forward to meeting, fishing and learning. jim         so, obviously, you have post-clave plans.  but we’re happy to have you, anyway. wayno

…the first bit of learnin will be trying to find clave central… i’m lookin forward to the stories of the misguided and lost, i.e., those who thought it’d be easy locating mill ridge because it’s across the road from the orvis shop… my bet is most will never even notice the orvis shop.  course, me and tom and waldo know right where to go, and we’ll keep the food warm and the beer chilled…HAHAHA… btw wayno…talked with jim last night…he didn’t sound like he was gonna come up. i told him he and JB could stay at my place for the weekend…you might need to nudge him some more. jeff

Response:

so, obviously, you have post-clave plans.   wayno Who could pass up a chance to meet "The rain man" (Ken) or fish with local "Legends" (Walt and Jeff) and learn to "Tie a flat turkey" (Dave La) My other option was hemorrhoid surgery…..it was a tough decision. jim

hell, jim…you can get that little problem taken care of at the clave, too. just listen for the banjo music… jeff

Response:

btw wayno…talked with jim last night…he didn’t sound like he was gonna come up. i told him he and JB could stay at my place for the weekend…you might need to nudge him some more.

Tell him Forty grew a ponytail and is calling himself "Fort Pamlico"<g. — Charlie…

Response:

btw wayno…talked with jim last night…he didn’t sound like he was gonna come up. i told him he and JB could stay at my place for the weekend…you might need to nudge him some more. Tell him Forty grew a ponytail and is calling himself "Fort Pamlico"<g. — Charlie…

…already told jim that forty claimed he could outfish him and beat him arm wrestling while chugging wild turkey…but your suggestion just might do it… jeff

Response:

btw wayno…talked with jim last night…he didn’t sound like he was gonna come up. i told him he and JB could stay at my place for the weekend…you might need to nudge him some more. Tell him Forty grew a ponytail and is calling himself "Fort Pamlico"<g. — Charlie…

        what a riot.  but, otoh, why don’t *you* tell him that.  i’ll just wait in the car. wayno

Response:

Rained out tennis last night so I read the 600 posts on roff.  Sounds  like we will be discussing microsoft spam  and doctors sticking fingers up your ass  during the evening clave sessions. A couple of young ladies from the college are taking Mac Browns fly fishing class  and they want to come over an talk about the size of rods.  They will probably want to put article in school newspaper  after Big Dale and I meat with them  and offer sage adventure suggestions.        Was going to kill Old Bob { the burro] today but he must of pooped out during the night. I chased the buzzards away this morning and my  squaw is  hanging parts on trees outside to cure. Chili will be ready for everyone Tuesday night.  Indian Joe  Wilmington NC

Response:

Question:

<<I’m about to start building my second rod, but I seem to have forgotten just about everything I learned last time.. The cork handle (complete set) is a bit loose, already got the squeaks. (Damn thing I used for expanding the hole in the cork, wasn’t 100% aligned with the tapering of the blank, so the butt section of the cork is too big) Is (a little bit of) masking tape under the cork handle ok? I think I applied some tape at the first rod, but that St.Criox piece of  #*!#/&^# broke before any side effects was given reasonable time to appear.. I do however remember that mask tape was not a great idea for assembling the parts of the pacific bay reel handle.. Mask tape did work well for mounting the reel handle on the blank, though. — Christian Figenschou – Christian, using masking tape really isn’t a great idea when you build rods. The reason is that over a short period of time, that tape compresses down flat and you still end up with a loose handle or reel seat.  This in turn can put stress on the blank and cause it to weaken eventually resulting in a broken blank.   I have only built a few rods but my mentor (who was featured on the cover of Fly Fishing Magazine for his rod work) taught me to never use masking tape.  If the handle gets botched then invest in another $16 for a new cork handle and redrill it. Mike

Response:

I’m about to start building my second rod, but I seem to have forgotten just about everything I learned last time.. The cork handle (complete set) is a bit loose, already got the squeaks. (Damn thing I used for expanding the hole in the cork, wasn’t 100% aligned with the tapering of the blank, so the butt section of the cork is too big) Is (a little bit of) masking tape under the cork handle ok?

Since this is only going to be a thin layer of masking tape I don’t think you’ll run into any problem. I would apply the tape really tightly if you have to use more than one winding or layer and I would saturate it really well with the glue you plan to use.I’ve said it before on this group: The company U 40 makes a superb 2 component glue for rod building (handle and grip) which forms a paste, that does not flow like your typical 2 component epoxy glue. If you used that you could apply a thick layer of this paste and wouldn’t even need to build up the difference with masking tape. Hope this helps, Tom.

Response:

using tape is fine as long as you are using a paste glue not a liquid glue like flex coat just make sure you find all the gaps dm

Response:

using tape is fine as long as you are using a paste glue not a liquid glue like flex coat just make sure you find all the gaps dm

I’ve used masking tape under the reel seats on about a half dozen rods, both fly and spinning, and also under a couple of the handles with no problem….yet. I use a 2-part epoxy that we use for setting fasteners etc in the construction industry. It’s the kind that’s in the 2-compartment dispesnsing tube and mixes in the tip. Very nice stuff. There’s many of you who have made many many more rods than me but, I’d tend to say the adhesive you use is a lot more important than if you put tape under the handle/seat. And, like dm says, make sure you fill all the gaps! pete

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to start building my second rod, but I seem to have forgotten just about everything I learned last time.. The cork handle (complete set) is a bit loose, already got the squeaks. (Damn thing I used for expanding the hole in the cork, wasn’t 100% aligned with the tapering of the blank, so the butt section of the cork is too big) Is (a little bit of) masking tape under the cork handle ok? I think I applied some tape at the first rod, but that St.Criox piece of  #*!#/&^# broke before any side effects was given reasonable time to appear.. I do however remember that mask tape was not a great idea for assembling the parts of the pacific bay reel handle.. Mask tape did work well for mounting the reel handle on the blank, though. — Christian Figenschou – http://home.sol.no/figen/

I’ve only built two rods, and I was tought to use masking tape to build up the blank under the handle. The 1/2 inch tape is applied in segments with about 1/2 inch spacing between segments. A liberal application of Rod Builders Epoxy results in a tight fitting handle that won’t loosen up. Regards, Chuck

Response:

I regularly use masking tape under cork handles when I am overly zealous about the filing. I don’t space the tape however, I just build the entire blank area up that is too narrow for the handle. I really saturate it with epoxy. I’ve found that if you use anything besides the five minute epoxy, that it penetrates the tape sufficiently to make it waterproof and the epoxy seems to actually bond to the rod shaft. I take no particular care when fishing with my rods and the handles get immersed frequently with no problems. — Hope you always have the time to go fishing! Jerry in Lodi Al & Jerry’s Excellent Adventures http://www.softcom.net/users/dorado Al & Jerry’s Fishing Forum http://pluto.beseen.com/boardroom/m/19629

Response:

I’ve built 6 rods using very thick masking tape under the reel seat. Like others say, keep the tape spaced and use an epoxy liberally. You will not have any problems other then keeping the epoxy on the inside. Have rubbing alcohle or mineral oil handy for immediate cleanup. Don’t want to leave any on the reel seat to screw up the threads of the lock down. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m about to start building my second rod, but I seem to have forgotten just about everything I learned last time.. The cork handle (complete set) is a bit loose, already got the squeaks. (Damn thing I used for expanding the hole in the cork, wasn’t 100% aligned with the tapering of the blank, so the butt section of the cork is too big) Is (a little bit of) masking tape under the cork handle ok? Since this is only going to be a thin layer of masking tape I don’t think you’ll run into any problem. I would apply the tape really tightly if you have to use more than one winding or layer and I would saturate it really well with the glue you plan to use.I’ve said it before on this group: The company U 40 makes a superb 2 component glue for rod building (handle and grip) which forms a paste, that does not flow like your typical 2 component epoxy glue. If you used that you could apply a thick layer of this paste and wouldn’t even need to build up the difference with masking tape. Hope this helps, Tom.

Response:

To keep that epoxy off the reel seat and out of the threads, just wrap masking tape around the outside of the reel seat too.  Then, before the epoxy dries, peel the masking tape off, along with any epoxy that squeezed out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve built 6 rods using very thick masking tape under the reel seat. Like others say, keep the tape spaced and use an epoxy liberally. You will not have any problems other then keeping the epoxy on the inside. Have rubbing alcohle or mineral oil handy for immediate cleanup. Don’t want to leave any on the reel seat to screw up the threads of the lock down. I’m about to start building my second rod, but I seem to have forgotten just about everything I learned last time.. The cork handle (complete set) is a bit loose, already got the squeaks. (Damn thing I used for expanding the hole in the cork, wasn’t 100% aligned with the tapering of the blank, so the butt section of the cork is too big) Is (a little bit of) masking tape under the cork handle ok? Since this is only going to be a thin layer of masking tape I don’t think you’ll run into any problem. I would apply the tape really tightly if you have to use more than one winding or layer and I would saturate it really well with the glue you plan to use.I’ve said it before on this group: The company U 40 makes a superb 2 component glue for rod building (handle and grip) which forms a paste, that does not flow like your typical 2 component epoxy glue. If you used that you could apply a thick layer of this paste and wouldn’t even need to build up the difference with masking tape. Hope this helps, Tom.

Response:

I’m about to start building my second rod, but I seem to have forgotten just about everything I learned last time.. The cork handle (complete set) is a bit loose, already got the squeaks. (Damn thing I used for expanding the hole in the cork, wasn’t 100% aligned with the tapering of the blank, so the butt section of the cork is too big) Is (a little bit of) masking tape under the cork handle ok? I think I applied some tape at the first rod, but that St.Criox piece of  #*!#/&^# broke before any side effects was given reasonable time to appear.. I do however remember that mask tape was not a great idea for assembling the parts of the pacific bay reel handle.. Mask tape did work well for mounting the reel handle on the blank, though. — Christian Figenschou – http://home.sol.no/figen/

Response:

Question:

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 03:27:25 GMT, jl…@knox.mindspring.com wrote: ~…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

~ Can I dig my foot out of my mouth now…..? I aplogize profusely…. I have been having a REALLY bad day and I VERY inappropriately took it out on you……. I will try to be less of an asshole next time. Please accept as my apology a more appropriate response: ~can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 ~children?  also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as ~children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with ~someone they are not married to)?  if  the divorce order is in one ~state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in ~effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state? I do not know the percentages in SC. It doubt VERY highly if there are any restrictions on visitation other than those outlined in any decree. Divorce decrees can not be moved as far as I know…. ~ ~please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these ~groups on a regular basis.   I am sending this to you in Email and also publicly apologizing to you in the newsgroup. I would like to ask that it be chalked up to a shitty day and let it slide. I will endeavor to never let my fingers hit the keyboard in here until my brain is in gear and my attitude is supportive no matter the question. Please, once again, accept my humble apologies. You were the victim of severe spillover. I’M SORRY! Lucas -DCS———————————————————– Any unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email, (SPAM), sent to any of my addresses will be charged $85 per hour, with a TWO hour minimum, for reading, replying, and time it takes to format messages to all of the uplinks to have the offenders internet service terminated. Sending of said unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email constitutes acceptance of these terms. —————————————————————

Response:

>can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 children?  

Sorry, I don’t know about that. In my state, it’s a formula combined with whatever expenses the custodial parent dreams up, which are never questioned.   >> also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with someone they are not married to)?<<

I truly can’t fathom this.  I would think that this would be something that has to be put in the decree at the request of a parent at the time of the final hearing, but this is my guess.  My husband and I lived with each other before getting married and his ex-wife is living with someone.  It’s probably the only thing we haven’t tried to hang each other over! >> if  the divorce order is in one state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state?<<

It hinges on which state the children are residents of in Colorado.  If we had custody and moved out of state, we could petition the courts to change the case to the new district we were in after we had established residency there.  However, if we move without the children (non-custodial), then the court with jurisdiction remains the same.   There is a group on the net called alt.support.child-support (I think that’s close).  Although they spend alot of time just griping, they can be of some help on occasion.  I’d post your question to them.   One other thing, my husband and I had to go back to court when Cheri (Jeff’s ex) was thinking about moving out of state with his kids.  Bottom line:  if it isn’t prohibited in the orginal orders (or subsequent orders), we can’t stop her.  We finally negotiated a truce which forbids her from taking them out permanently, but it wasn’t easy or cheap.   >please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these groups on a regular basis.  >

I’ll post and email. Good luck, Lynn

Response:

d…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

—>Can I dig my foot out of my mouth now…..? —>I aplogize profusely…. I have been having a REALLY bad day and I VERY —>inappropriately took it out on you……. —>I will try to be less of an asshole next time. —>Please accept as my apology a more appropriate response: thanks lucas.  apology accepted.  :)

Response:

I missed the original post (as sometimes happens with my list, too) because for some reason my reader ALSO refuses to let me in for several days at a time.  Believe me, I try to read at least once a day.  You can tell by how verbose I am. Anyway, you are welcome here.  The response you got was not typical. Lucas, what got up your butt?  I know you’re opinionated, but you usually aren’t nasty! Best wishes.  Hope you get over that bug, Lucas. Pam For the info of all newsgroup readers, a good site with discussion groups (including one for steps) as well as a legal database of state by state info is at: <http://www.divorcenet.com> (add /board6.html for the step discussions)

Response:

can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 children?  also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with someone they are not married to)?  if  the divorce order is in one state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state? please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these groups on a regular basis.   thanks! jl…@mindspring.com

Response:

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:01:14 GMT, jl…@knox.mindspring.com wrote:

~can someone tell me what the child support percentage is in SC for 3 ~children?  also, is there any restriction on visitation (such as ~children cannot stay overnight with a parent if they are living with ~someone they are not married to)?  if  the divorce order is in one ~state and the parent moves to another does the original order stay in ~effect or can the parent get the it changed to the new state? First, we are not lawyers…. It sounds alot like you are fishing for a way to slap an ex…. Second, since you deserve the advice you get, here goes: (two face mask on) for 3 children the percentage is 50% of your income for the life of the children. This means that the amount you have earned since they were born, you divide into a monthly income and 50% of that is child-support…. As for restrictions on visitation: it depends on whether the other party is also living with someone. The children automatically become wards of the person who has another adult in the house with them. Especially if the other person is of the same sex. If your ex now has a live-in lover, you will need to either find a lover of your own sex, or hand over the children immediately. If it is you that now has the lover, demand immediate custody. Oh, of course, the divorce decree can be moved to any jurisdiction you wish. Even if you do not live there. We had our decree moved to mexico, because we found a judge who could be bribed to increase the bastards child support from a measly $105 per month to $1050 per month. I would strongly suggest moving to Japan if you are the non custodial parent. They dont believe in child support. ~please respond by e-mail as i haven’t been able to pick up these ~groups on a regular basis.   If you are unable to pick up this newsgroup on a regular basis, it is because you are too busy to bother. This is an alt.support group, not an alt.free.legal.advice group. ~thanks! You are NOT welcome…. ~jl…@mindspring.com If you want some support as a step-parent, drop in and see us sometime. Ask your lawyer for the legal advice. ~ -DCS———————————————————– Any unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email, (SPAM), sent to any of my addresses will be charged $85 per hour, with a TWO hour minimum, for reading, replying, and time it takes to format messages to all of the uplinks to have the offenders internet service terminated. Sending of said unsolicited COMMERCIAL Email constitutes acceptance of these terms. —————————————————————

Response:

d…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

—>First, we are not lawyers…. It sounds alot like you are fishing for a way —>to slap an ex…. i never said anyone here was.   but i figured that step-parents might have some insight into cs and visitation.   —>Second, since you deserve the advice you get, here goes: (two face mask on) and i never asked for legal advice.  i asked for information.  i never take anything  i read in any newsgroups as carved in stone fact. and it’s obvious from the "advice" you offered you don’t have the information. —>If you are unable to pick up this newsgroup on a regular basis, it is —>because you are too busy to bother. This is an alt.support group, not an —>alt.free.legal.advice group. no…  it is because i seem to have a problem with my reader when it tries to pull in groups that have large message bases.  so i don’t always get all messages.  so e-mail seems to work a bit better when i am asking for information. and again, i did NOT ask for advice. —>~thanks! —>You are NOT welcome…. what is your problem?  i asked for simple information  and i get treated rudely.  is that the way you treat everyone here?  or is it strictly reserved for newcomers???   —>If you want some support as a step-parent, drop in and see us sometime. i will be becoming a step-parent soon.  but if you are any indication of the type of step-parent that is a frequenter of this news group i am GLAD that i have problems pulling the group! —>Ask your lawyer for the legal advice. exactly what we do! my apoligies to anyone out there i annoyed with my simple request.  i never dreamed that it would receive this type of reception.

Response:

d…@bi.org (Lucas Aarons) wrote:

—>First, we are not lawyers…. It sounds alot like you are fishing for a way —>to slap an ex…. I don’t know about the rest of you.  YOU are not only apparently not a lawyer, you are not deserving of participation in a group that includes the word support.  What kind of an idiot responds to a simple request for information as if it were a personal insult?  Or do you have nothing better to do than shoot off your mouth? As it happens, this woman you have taken upon yourself to police is about to become a step-parent.  Her step-children are about to be taken by my ex-wife to South Carolina.  She is asking for information that anyone in South Carolina could easily look up in a public library. Most any idiot could recognize the difference between this and legal advice, but you appear to not be just any idiot.  You must be an especially depraved idiot, too sucked up in some kind of bitterness to notice. We could look up the information ourselves, except that we’re not IN South Carolina.  One would think that a newsgroup with a name like alt.support.step-parents would be a place to get support from other step-parents. I think a reasonable person would assume that.  Oh, but I forget, you don’t act like a reasonable person, you act like a self-evidenced depraved idiot. I suppose YOU would not wonder how your own situation might change as a result of the decisions that other people make.  You would just pony up whatever demands were placed on you.  Or else you would fly across the country and look up the information yourself.  But then, you seem to be an idiot, so I wouldn’t be surprised.  Only an idiot would attempt to read an entire set of motivations out of one posting of less than 15 lines.  Or perhaps you are psychic!  Let’s see, from your post…. —>If you are unable to pick up this newsgroup on a regular basis, it is —>because you are too busy to bother. ….you are able to tell the reason she doesn’t get the newsgroup regularly.  How amazing!  Except, you blithering idiot, that her ISP tends to time out before she can download all the postings, and so she tends to lose a lot of them. And this one takes a little more reading between the lines, but there seems to be a pattern: —>They dont believe in child support. So, Mr. or Ms. or Mx. Psychic, you probably are assuming that this is someone trying to get out of paying child support.  Couldn’t POSSIBLY be, could it, that this is someone who is trying to help BUDGET for something that she is not forced into?  No, that would be too human, something that a depraved idiot is in no position to understand. It is assholes like you who give the Internet a bad name.  If the newsgroup is for support, then be supportive or go somewhere that welcomes people who have nothing better to do with their feeble lives than flame. My thanks to you who actually provided support. You would seem more representative of this group than this one waste of space on the planet. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could actually support each other? And I apologize for taking up bandwidth.  A public slander deserves a public reply, however.

Response:

Question:

I remember reading that at an FFF conclave in Alberta, the keynote speaker, Lefty, was nearly late because he had been out on the river giving casting lessons to some kid he had met.  I too have not been impressed with all the folks trying to make a buck on the sport I love, and would not give lefty a dime for his web site–however, the story I read leads me to believe that his heart may be in the right spot. Eric Oden Boise

I think that lots of people in the fly fishing world are very talented but only the good guys like Lefty get popular with the public. When they hire him to work at a sport show they are getting a bargain. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY

Response:

I remember reading that at an FFF conclave in Alberta, the keynote speaker, Lefty, was nearly late because he had been out on the river giving casting lessons to some kid he had met.  I too have not been impressed with all the folks trying to make a buck on the sport I love, and would not give lefty a dime for his web site–however, the story I read leads me to believe that his heart may be in the right spot. Eric Oden Boise

Response:

Question:

Hi guys-    Am going to Borneo on a cave mapping trip in October through December. Anybody know anything about the fisheries there or who to contact? -Ralph —

Response:

Hi guys-   Am going to Borneo on a cave mapping trip in October through December. Anybody know anything about the fisheries there or who to contact? -Ralph —

        oh, god, what a great post.  thanks, cutter.  haven’t had a laugh like this in months.                 a. wayne harrison

Response:

        oh, god, what a great post.  thanks, cutter.  haven’t had a laugh like this in months!                 a. wayne harrison

        No. Really.         I’d hate to show up with a box of PMD’s when the centipede hatch was going bonkers.         Seriously though, if anyone has any leads regarding fish or fishing in Borneo I’d appreciate a word. -Me

Response:

        oh, god, what a great post.  thanks, cutter.  haven’t had a laugh like this in months!                 a. wayne harrison         No. Really.         I’d hate to show up with a box of PMD’s when the centipede hatch was going bonkers.         Seriously though, if anyone has any leads regarding fish or fishing in Borneo I’d appreciate a word.

I do not. RE: Fish in Caves… Once I was in a cave in Colorado that had running water in it (on an extended backpacking rip)…it was FULL of brookies…wierd little huge jawed brookies…that would hit anything. We ate a lot of them… We kept ‘em alive on a stringer…bonk one…cut off the head…insert weenie stick along spine and cook like a marshmallow.  DELICIOUS ! TimW

Response:

Try contacting  Hock-Heng Pro Fishing in Singapore , they are pretty knowledgable from what I remember . Unfortunately I do not have their contact information anymore , but remember the name . G

Response:

Question:

Anyone know of a mail-order source for 8 millimeter diameter pom-poms to use in making egg pattern flies?  (I believe 5 are smaller and 10 larger than the real thing – a king salmon egg.) Also – what are favorite colors for these things?   Thanks.

Response:

I’ve bought white 8mm pom poms at a fabric store called Jo-Ann Fabrics. I’ve used RIT dyes to get colors such as chartreuse and Orgeon Cheese (be sure to use a vinegar bath after dying to make it colorfast).  These two colors have been the most effective for me on the Salmon River in NY.  I then insert the hook through the pom pom, making sure it enters perpendicular to the inner thread.  A small bit of thread wrap in front of and behind the pom pom holds it in place.  A hot glue gun will do the same, but it gets a bit messy.  Good luck.

Response:

Anyone know of a mail-order source for 8 millimeter diameter pom-poms to use in making egg pattern flies?  (I believe 5 are smaller and 10 larger than the real thing – a king salmon egg.) Also – what are favorite colors for these things?  

Hi- Ben Franklin’s craft stores carry pom poms and will mail order. Get the white ones and dye them to your specs. Purple, lime, flame and peach will round out your selection. Don’t ask why steelhead and trout like these colors . . . just remember they do not percieve colors as humans do (they see UV and IR as well as the colors we see). 3mm is perfect trout and kokanee size roe. I’d guess 8mm is king salmon size but honestly don’t know and I doubt if the fish care.    Tight lines, Ralph —

Response:

Just to let you know – those seemingly fancy eggs with protruding mylar tags are available in most of the craft stores way up here in Canada, but I have only seen them in 10mm. Being something of a beginner, I first purchased these lettle gems from a tackle shop, and could have bought an equivilant weight of gold for the same price. In the craft shop they are 5cents each and available in all sorts of colours – which means that if you are slow off the mark, purple will be the only colour remaining. Good Luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know of a mail-order source for 8 millimeter diameter pom-poms to use in making egg pattern flies?  (I believe 5 are smaller and 10 larger than the real thing – a king salmon egg.) Also – what are favorite colors for these things?   Orange and peach.  Those hand-tied from glow-bug yarn have a nicer, translucent look than those made from pom-poms. — -Wayne Trzyna I’d be <amazed if chinooks were selective enough to hesitate to take a 10mm pompom because it was 2 mm larger than the real thing.  Go with the 10’s if that’s what you can find.  Be sure you check the local craft and fabric stores.  If they have them, you’ll save a bundle.  At least you would here in Oregon, where you’re fishing egg flies strictly along the bottom, and catching rocks a lot.  What I haven’t seen, other than in fly shops, though, are the pompoms with the tiny bits of protruding mylar. If that’s what you really want, I’m afraid I have nothing to offer. Tight lines, Greg Metcalfe

– << Allan Hyggen   << <<          <<

Response:

Just to let you know – those seemingly fancy eggs with protruding mylar tags are available in most of the craft stores way up here in Canada, but

Note:  I conducted an off-the-cuff study one day, with some Alaskan Rainbows feeding behind spawning chum salmon.  The rainbows would approach the "fancy protruding mylar" egg patterns, scope ‘em out, then turn away. But they would readily take similar pom-poms without the protruding mylar. I think the protruding mylar catches more fishermen than fish. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Note:  I conducted an off-the-cuff study one day, with some Alaskan Rainbows feeding behind spawning chum salmon.  The rainbows would approach the "fancy protruding mylar" egg patterns, scope ‘em out, then turn away. But they would readily take similar pom-poms without the protruding mylar.

…and they would take eggs hand-tied from glow-bug yarn more readily than either type of pom-pom. — -Wayne Trzyna

Response:

Question:

There may be less people doing overnight backpack trips, but I bet there are more people in the backcountry overall and doing a much more diverse set of activities. Which is very good news for us that do like to backpack: less people in the backcountry.  There might be more people in the woods but they all leave at dark.  I was talking to a fellow the other day who said he did quite

Oops! Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply we’re not in the backcountry after dark.  Many times I’m bivouaced on a ledge while climbing or camping in sagebrush near a remote desrt cave in Wyoming. So what I meant to imply is that besides the diversity of day trips many of us pack gear into remote places during mountaineering, caving, and whitewater trips that backpackers normally don’t visit. I’ve never seen backpackers on the East Ridge of the Grand Teton, or in the desert near Bighorn caverns, or along some of the remote stretches of whitewater in central Idaho, so there ARE more people in the backcountry overnight far from trailheads and vehicles, but in different places than backpackers normally go. I think what I’m getting at is, we are using backpacking as a mode of trasportation for some other goal, and not an end in itself. I’m not a "backpacker", yet backpacking is a critical part of getting to a lot of remote activities where I do spend the night. I’ve probably spent 300 night camped in backcountry far from roads in the past 6 or 7 years and only 3 of those night were on what I would call a backpacking trip. Steve —

Response:

Eugene Miya: What worries me more are the borderline Wilcox’s out there reading the net (you can quote me on that).  I know a few in everyday life, and I lost one a couple of years back.  That is evolution in action. –eugene Steve Reiser:   Hi Eugene, I read your posting on "In the Hall of the Mountain King" and "White Winds", both of which I’ve read and have copies of.  Snyder indicated a lot of bad judgement by Wilcox.  Wilcox tries to be objective in his book, but one can’t help but notice his omissions. He seemed to cover up his errors not by arguing with Snyder’s account, but by ignoring them altogether. His book seemed somewhat defensive, especially at the end when he talks about all the grief he went through in the press afterword. I think Snyder probably gave an honest account, which arouses some wrath toward Wilcox, in most readers.  I didn’t like the way Wilcox covered his errors, but I was convinced that he suffered enough condemnation afterword to make me feel a bit sorry for him. I think his response was a bit overly defensive to the media, the Park Service, and the relatives of those who died. I would imagine that Wilcox’s attempt to gloss over his errors may have been part of the inspiration for Snyder to write his book in the first place. Hence, if Wilcox would have been more honest in the first place, it’s possible that neither book would have ever been written. It’s hard to read both books and not come up with mixed feelings toward Wilcox.  It’s tempting to feel some anger toward him for lack of good judgement, especially on their summit day for the second group, and at the same time feeling some sympathy for the weight of blame layed on him, since he was the expedition leader. (Snyder was better qualified to be the leader of the group.) Steve Reiser P.S – Seven friends of mine left yesterday for the Denali. I wish them well. (They’re more experienced than most in the books discussed above). If this appears twice, I first posted without a subject. —

Response:

I think what I’m getting at is, we are using backpacking as a mode of trasportation for some other goal, and not an end in itself. I’m not a "backpacker", yet backpacking is a critical part of getting to a lot of remote activities where I do spend the night. I’ve probably spent 300 night camped in backcountry far from roads in the past 6 or 7 years and only 3 of those night were on what I would call a backpacking trip.

Maybe we have a problem with semantics here.  I think if you hike off into the woods with a backpack, you’re backpacking, no matter what the end result is.  I pack in to climb mountains, do caves, search for minerals, etc. and consider that backpacking.  Cripes, those packs are heavy – I’m not doing it for fun. Well, maybe I am.  Either way, I’m still pleased that there are less people out there when sunset finishes and the stars come out.

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There may be less people doing overnight backpack trips, but I bet there are more people in the backcountry overall and doing a much more diverse set of activities.

Which is very good news for us that do like to backpack: less people in the backcountry.  There might be more people in the woods but they all leave at dark.  I was talking to a fellow the other day who said he did quite a bit of backpacking in the early 70’s.  He said that he would hike 10 miles into the backcountry and see several groups of people back there too and think nothing of it.  Other than my group of friends, I don’t know anyone at all that backpacks and I almost never see anyone else in the backcountry (outside of hunters, that is).  One would think that there would at least be trail bikers back there but they seem to be more into ‘day-biking’.  I’m not complaining, of course, I’m happy.

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I thought some might find this article interesting – DH [some deleted] ON THE DECLINE   Overnight and longer backpacking trips are a sport on the decline, said Christy Metz, public information specialist for Rocky Mountain National Park. In their place, the number of day hikers and campground campers are growing. Backpacking began increasing in the early ’70s, peaked in the late ’70s, and has been falling ever since.  In 1977, Rocky Mountain National Park issued 62,708 back-country permits; in 1989, 32,792.

However, if you look at statistics for many other backcountry activities, you’ll find a drastic increase. Mountaineering, technical rock climbing, kayaking, mountain biking, spelunking, and many other backcountry sports are experiencing nearly exponential growth.  I see more people specializing in specific sports in the backcountry and less who are out strictly backpacking. DIVERSIFY   Some salespeople at moutaineering shops, however, are a bit hesitant to see their lines diversify too much.  Many tempered their enthusiasm for expansion with a note of service to the true back country lover.

This hesitation to diversify has cost many local stores business in specialized gear, more of which is sold through mail order companies.  I probably buy 50% of my outdoor gear through mail order due to this hesitance in local store.  I’m into all of the sports I listed above and the diversity of gear required is far more than most outdoor shops are willing to carry. My point here in comparison to the original article is to note that even though outdoor gear is fashionable on the streets, day hikes, and campgrounds, and with backpacking on the decline, there is still an exploding market for specialized backcoutry sports. There may be less people doing overnight backpack trips, but I bet there are more people in the backcountry overall and doing a much more diverse set of activities. Steve —

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I thought some might find this article interesting – DH Backpacking Outlets Expand Bottom Line    by Susan Simmons Eustes Boulder Business Report – May 1990    Despite a dramatic drop in number of campers and tourists trekking into the back country, area mountaineering stores say their sales are growing every year.    The day when the Vasque hiking boots were the "casual" loafer for many Boulderites has long disappeared.  Today, lighter and brighter are in demand and traditional mountaineering stores are expanding product lines to include gear for every sport from kayaking to mountain biking.    Like it or not, the mountaineering "look" continues to be fashionable in Boulder.  "You always want the ‘in’ look, whether you are hiking the mall or hiking Flagstaff," said John Whitbeck, manager at the north face in Boulder. "People want to wear clothing that identifies them as outdoorsy." ON THE DECLINE    Overnight and longer backpacking trips are a sport on the decline, said Christy Metz, public information specialist for Rocky Mountain National Park. In their place, the number of day hikers and campground campers are growing. Backpacking began increasing in the early ’70s, peaked in the late ’70s, and has been falling ever since.  In 1977, Rocky Mountain National Park issued 62,708 back-country permits; in 1989, 32,792.    … In 1985, the first year permits were issued for Indian Peaks [Wilderness Area], 2,134 were requested.  In 1989, 1,550 permits were requested.    So what does this mean for the people who sell camp stoves, sleeping bags, and hiking shoes?    It means even more business, said Whitbeck.    "In our 15 retail stores, without exception, business has been up a mile." The selling point for The North Face, and other mountain stores, is the dramatic shift in outdoor gear lines from the products carried 15 years ago. The traditional business of boots, packs and tents has mushroomed to include equipment for outdoor sports as varied as cross-country skiing or fly fishing. DIVERSIFY    As baby boomers married and began to raise children, more chose day hikes or more convenient overnight stays in campgrounds, say Jim Wilson of the back- country office at Rocky Mountain National Park. …    … (examples of stores diversifying) …    Dan Hare, manager of The Boulder Mountaineer, said his sales of backpacks and sleeping bags continues to increase, but "lots of people buy backpacks that never go into the back country," he added.    Shannon Long, manager at the Boulder Army Store, has noticed more of his customers are car camping and buying more for convenience.  Such campers, however, often opt for the more expensive lines.    "Ten years ago, people weren’t buying high-tech stuff.  They weren’t into buying brand names.  They were more concerned about getting a good product for a low price."    Clothing is a big seller for most outdoor shops.  Color are big, as are brand names and high fashion, mountain store owners agree.    Everybody likes rugby shirts and cotton shorts, said Phil Hollman, salesman at The North Face.  "Colors and style – people are really taken with that as much as we like to think they weren’t," Hollman said.  "Everything is getting more specialized: new technologies, new fabrics, lighter weight and very colorful."    Wools and cottons are taking a back seat to newer, more durable and comfortable fabrics such as Goretex, Dudley said.  And with the newer fabrics come higher prices.    The "tech heads" want the best, Noel added.  People want the fiberglass tent poles, the lightweight backpacks and the warmer, more water repellant clothing even if it means higher prices.    Some salespeople at moutaineering shops, however, are a bit hesitant to see their lines diversify too much.  Many tempered their enthusiasm for expansion with a note of service to the true back country lover.    Image and brand names mean more to people than store managers care to admit, [Mountain Sports buyer Scott] Lee said.  "We’re not quite as trendy a store as some …  We don’t want to lose our image as a mountaineering shop."

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