Question:

Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Thanks in advance!

Response:

Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away??

Do a web search on "lateral epicondylitis".  It’s not fun, that’s for sure.

Response:

Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away??

A couple of years ago I got tennis elbow in my right (racquet) arm by digging up trees in my yard.  I stupidly didn’t take much time off of tennis, and also didn’t get any treatment.  It took a long time to go away, but I eventually recovered completely.  I think I helped the healing by careful weightlifting that didn’t aggravate it.  One guy I used to play tennis with got it pretty bad.  He’s had physical therapy and cortisone shots, and is still trying to recover. I’ve had pain in my left arm for the last couple of months that I can only attribute to golf.  It sounds like what you have.  During the summer I was hitting a lot of balls each week, and also doing some cross-training to maintain strength and flexibility and ward off injury.  I may have overdone the practice regimen a bit.  I have one more tournament to play on 10/20, then I’m planning on rest and rehab over the winter to get rid of the pain.   – cja

Response:

Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Do a web search on "lateral epicondylitis".  It’s not fun, that’s for sure.

And if that happens to be your problem, ask your pharmacist for the type of "armband" (some look like a U-shaped clamp) that redirects vibration away from your elbow. It won’t cure you (only rest will do that) but at least will alleviate further pain.

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I am currently suffering from a (left) tennis elbow as a result of a too strong grip while playing in the rain. I am getting physiotherapy but have been told that it may take anywhere between 3 months and 2 years to heal. Rest seems to do the trick. Certainly no more golf for the foreseeable future… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Thanks in advance!

Response:

This is bad news.  I’ve worked through this in both elbows. Definitely take measures now, or it can get a lot worse.  The things I have done, that are finally getting me fixed, after a year, are: 1) Ice the elbow thoroughly after golf or other activities which make it sore. 2) Stretch the tendons before.  There are web sites out there which can give you the stretches. 3) Weight training of the forearm.  I use 12 lb dumbells now, had to start with 2 lb. You want to lay your arm across your knee, palm down, and flex the hand backwards towards your elbow.  Do 15 reps with what ever weight you can.  Then turn the hand over, palm up, and curl your wrist with the same weight.  Do three or four times a week. 4) I had to give up golf and fly fishing for two months.  I gave it up for three weeks and then went back, and really made things worse. 5) Ibuprofen 6) Get a tennis elbow support strap.  Your local drug store should have one. Wear this while golfing or when doing other things that subject the elbow to impact.  You wear it just below the elbow, on the fat part of your forearm. It distributes stress to the muscle lower in your arm. Hope that helps.  Don’t ignore this, or it can become chronic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Thanks in advance!

Response:

In addition to the excellent list of options below, I would taking Glucoseamaine Sulphate, which cured a very bad case of Tennis Elbow I had several years ago. would seem to take 60 days for benefits to appear. Cortisone shots help, but are not recommended until other treatments fail. — Bill Cochrane 416-284-8462

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is bad news.  I’ve worked through this in both elbows. Definitely take measures now, or it can get a lot worse.  The things I have done, that are finally getting me fixed, after a year, are: 1) Ice the elbow thoroughly after golf or other activities which make it sore. 2) Stretch the tendons before.  There are web sites out there which can give you the stretches. 3) Weight training of the forearm.  I use 12 lb dumbells now, had to start with 2 lb. You want to lay your arm across your knee, palm down, and flex the hand backwards towards your elbow.  Do 15 reps with what ever weight you can.  Then turn the hand over, palm up, and curl your wrist with the same weight.  Do three or four times a week. 4) I had to give up golf and fly fishing for two months.  I gave it up for three weeks and then went back, and really made things worse. 5) Ibuprofen 6) Get a tennis elbow support strap.  Your local drug store should have one. Wear this while golfing or when doing other things that subject the elbow to impact.  You wear it just below the elbow, on the fat part of your forearm. It distributes stress to the muscle lower in your arm. Hope that helps.  Don’t ignore this, or it can become chronic. Lately, the outside of my left elbow is sore to the core. (I’m right handed)  I was told by some golfers that I may have ‘tennis elbow’.  Has anyone experienced this and what did you do for it?  I’m sure I’ll have to see the Doc, if it doesn’t go away.  Will it go away?? Thanks in advance!

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Question:

Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies.

More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

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More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived.

Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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My father brought home a 23 pound Pike from Minnesota years ago that had a huge scar on both sides of it’s body that was the result of a considerably larger Pike getting a death grip on her.  The wound was mostly healed, and the fish put up a great fight, so it clearly wasn’t weakened.   Some have said that the bleeding won’t stop.  That is simply wrong.   Some have said that if the gills are cut, then the bleeding won’t stop.  That may be true in some circumstances, but certainly not in all circumstances. Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table? My experience matches Peter’s with juveniles being more delicate, and with larger fish surviving tremendous injuries. Last year at Great Slave Lake my son Andy caught a blind pike.  The fishes eyes were entirely gone, but it managed to find his fly and put up a presentable fight.  It was only 6 or 7 pounds, and uninjured by the fly so we released it.  We couldn’t guess how it lost it’s sight. Frank Ammoto(sp?) wrote an article about steelhead fishing in BC long ago where he caught a steelhead that didn’t put up the usual fight.   When he landed it he discovered that literally half of it’s head had been bitten off by a seal.  This fish was 100 miles upstream from the nearest seal. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence either.

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Is it possible that these stories about certain death are created by "bleeding heart" folks who need justification for bringing a fish home to the table?

I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.  There was no mistaking it.  No big deal really.  I am sure some other critter was able to enjoy a nice fish. Unlike "some" people, I am not tormented by this. I wonder if water temps, time of year, etc make much of a difference. Perhaps in colder waters, their metabolism is moving slower and the bleeding eventually stops compared to warm water, faster metabolism, etc. I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?  I don’t draw blood when I lop off the fins of some perch and don’t strike blood until I lop off their heads or when I open them up to gut.  Just a few thoughts and not scientific answers. . . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

That’s supposed to be a joke?? You remain one sick fuckin’ puppy.

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Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it.

Tim, This came up recently either on ROFF or ROFS. If ROFF sorry for the repeat of the site. http://www.leadertec.com/Catch_release.html Kiyu

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Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott?

Well, as an erstwhile medical practitioner, I usually call it icky goo. When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter?

Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why so many people would rather consort with fish slime than with you? Still not Pete

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Sure, they do die, I’ve seen that often too. I bet the water temperature has a lot to do with it.  Dry Falls Lake is a selective fishery in Eastern Washington that has a nice collection of 14 to 24 inch rainbows and a few nice browns.  One year it was warmer than usual around opening day, and I could see twenty or thirty dead fish on the second day of the season while the morning of the first day there were none.  I was sure these were fish that had been injured when they were hooked and released.  Other years there were no dead fish on the second or third day.  I’m sure it wasn’t any difference in the anglers or the education or the fish.  It had to be environmental. Today I was fishing for Silvers on the Cascade river and snagged a hard fighting 7 pounder.  All the skin and flesh was gone from the top of his head, right down to the bone.  That’s an area of about four square inches.  He put up quite a fight, and I released him unharmed.  The wound was red around the edges, and the rest was clean white bone.  The only likely perpetrator was a seal, and that had to have happened thirty miles down stream at the mouth of the Skagit.   All this is cold clean water, I’m sure that helped. As for that horible feeling that the fish has died, I don’t get that either.  It is wonderful to see all these dead pink salmon providing the nutrients our rivers have been starving for over the last several years. Chas Still thinking about carpooling to the Pike clave… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I watched a fish bleed to death in Yellowstone this summer.  I was kind of mad that I couldn’t keep it because it was a cutthroat, but wrote it off as bug food and essential nutrients going back into the river.  It did die though.   … snip . . — Warren Findley www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible. Why do I care about the slime on a fish I’m keeping?  (That’s an honest question, not a sarcastic comment)  I’ve noticed that fish I’ve gutted in the field and packed on ice seem to build up a heave slime layer by the time I get them home.  I wonder if the "slime glands" are like our hair folicles and keep functioning after the body has died. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

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I’m not sure I understand humane in this context, so I’ll just leave that part alone.  My understanding is that the fish taste better if you keep them on a stringer for a while so they can work out the built up lactic acid, and then bleed them as completely as possible.

just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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I do know that fish don’t have much of an circulatory system compared to other animals and so deep wounds may not even bleed at all.  Think about it.  When you clean a fish, how much blood do you get and where are you getting it?

Not much.  Maybe that’s the answer.  Fish just don’t have that much blood. Other than a major artery or the gills, they just don’t bleed much.  When you do cut the gills, they can lose such a high percentage of their blood so quickly (relatively speaking) that it’s sometimes fatal.  Maybe it’s not a blood clot issue at all.

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More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens?

Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period.

Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you see? George Gehrke

  george.vcf

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The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t

necessary, don’t you see? I see the beauty of releasing bleeders in to an 11 inch cold handle cauterizer… — TBone

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Because people have written here in the past, in absolutely certain terms, that fish’s blood won’t clot, and once it starts bleeding, it won’t stop, and the fish will die, period. Water, itself makes clotting difficult due to dilution.  The hot-match-heat procedure catercizes the wound and clotting isn’t necessary, don’t you

see? Catercizes.  Yes, I think I see now.

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I suspect you’re right.  I think the main reason I keep them on a stringer is that I like to get them on ice as soon after they die as possible.  If I’m going to keep fishing, I’d rather keep the fish fresh by keeping it alive.  I know that’s not what I said before, but in that context I thought the delay might have some value. Thanks Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just bleed them… it’s all one needs to do.  and you can thwack them on the head and then bleed them (and they’ll bleed fully dead) chris

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The best way to preserve ‘the slime layer’ is to never touch a fish with dry hands nor do you let it flop on dry ground. Frankly, I don’t know the scientific name for fish slime but I would like to know it.  You don’t suppose there is someone here that can find the term here in ROFF Scott? When you cut the gills of salmon to bleed them, do you use a box cutter? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

  george.vcf

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health.

Along this line, it is now advocated by some that C&R bass fishermen brink along a hypodermic needle to "fizz" the air bladder of bass caught in deeper whater. Bass can not readily adjust their swim bladders so when they are released, they float on top. This has resulted in extreme mortality in some tournaments. There is a very specific location for the placement of the needle through the skin, so you need to familiarize yourself with the anatomy thoroughly before doing it. — TBone

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Good point.  Another example is Great Lakes trout or salmon that have the scars from lamprey attachments.  Those cuts were obviously bleeding enough to feed an eel, yet they also survived.  I’ve always doubted the idea that a bleeding fish will necessarily die (this just does not make much sense in terms of their survival.)  But I don’t have anything other than anecdotal evidence eithe

I’ve seen many trout that have had huge scars and chunks of flesh missing that have survived quite well, but *every* trout or salmon that I’ve seen bleeding from the gills has died within minutes, often within seconds. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

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I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding.

IMHO, when you are going to keep a fish, humanely kill it and be done with it.  There may be some blood later, but my understanding is that this is the best way to preserve the slime layer. Scott

Response:

Peter Charles: (snip) It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. More anecdotal stuff:  Go fishing in Labrador and you are bound to catch a big brookie with portions of it missing, having been the intended meal of some hungry pike or laketrout.  I’ve caught several big brookies that had their dorsal fins missing, along with a nice chunk of their back, and others with scars on their head and belly.  But they all survived. Dave

More anecdotal stuff: Some people survive shotgun blasts, and others are killed instantly by mishandled .22s loaded with .22 shorts. Sometimes game animals are killed with one (particular) shot, other times, they aren’t.  Of course some fish survive mauling, etc., while others die from seemingly minor wounds.  Why is anyone surprised, or doubt it happens? TC, R

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In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke

  george.vcf

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I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a multi-part message in MIME format. In the world of CATCH & RELEASE, some get a bleeder which often is no more then a small hook hole or pin prick into a gill.  There is a way to stop the bleeding. Arm yourselves with a film can of kitchen matches.  Glue onto the sides a sheet of very fine grained sandpaper.  Use the hot match head, with flame still going but put it out by applying the charcoal heated (sulfur based) head against the wound.  Catercizing a little wound like this often stops the bleeding immediately and the fish may be released in good health. Sometimes it doesn’t work, but practice makes perfect This IS a choice which is better then nothing at all. George Gehrke [ george.vcf ] (Attachment)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m trying to imagine handling the fish’s gills carefully enough to find the wound, then striking the match, blowing it out, and getting it inside the fish to cauterize the wound.  All this needs to be within 30 seconds so the air on the gills doesn’t do the dastardly deed. Interesting idea, but a bit far-fetched. I don’t have any proof in the case of trout, but I’ve seen that bleeding pills in Pike aren’t always lethal.  On a couple 30 fish days up at Great Slave Lake, we had 3 or 4 fish that we released despite the bleeding.   The bay we were fishing had a bare mud bottom only about 3 feet deep, so we could see the fish on the bottom.  They developed a red spot on the bottom from the bleeding.  As we came over those areas later, we noticed the spots, but the fish were gone. I’ve also cut the gills of salmon intentionally to bleed them when I was keeping them.  With the fish on a stringer in the shallows I did this half an hour before leaving.  There was a lot of blood in the water initially, but it stopped.  Some of the fish were still holding themselves upright and finning, and needed to be cut again to finish the bleeding. I’m sure these cuts aren’t good, but I think at least some fish survive them. Chas

Chas, I don’t have the range of encounters that you have mentioned but I can talk about a few instances.  We are taught that fish have no platelets and all bleeding inevitably leads to death.  I have hooked deeply small trout on C&R or slot limit streams that I was required by law to release and I have watched these bleeding fish die.  Yet I have also hooked a landlock salmon under the jaw, caused a very nasty, distinctive wound, had it bleed, released it (as required by law) and caught it the very next day on the same fly.   I have also caught smallmouth with fresh, bleeding mouth wounds opposite to the site of the hook puncture, that I had obviously caused having hooked and lost the same fish some time earlier (I was the only fisherman there.) These experiences have suggested to me that fish with major bleeding will die but a minor bleed is not necessarily fatal.  I also agree that pike with minor bleeding wounds will usually survive.  In my experience, most pike that are brought into a boat are returned to the water with at least some bleeding.  They thrash so much that even with experienced handling, it’s hard to keep them from banging into something that will cut them.  If mortality from these casual bleeds was 100%, C&R mortality for pike would be probably in excess of 50%. Nobody talks about pike as being endangered. So obviously, C&R mortality has to be running a lot lower (as suggested by virtually all studies – however flawed.)   Therefore, bleeding is not necessarily fatal – hardly scientific but definitely within the experience of this fisherman.  I have also caught steelhead with a fungus growth covering wounds inflicted during the migration, from nest building, and from fighting.  If steelhead died from the first bleeding wound, there wouldn’t be very many steelhead around. It is this kind of anecdotal experience that causes me to question some of the absolutism found in some scientific studies. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Question:

I’ll be in Richand-Pasco, WA next week and would like to get some time on the river in between job assignments. What can anyone tell me about this area?  All I read is that the rivers are big; I would need a boat to fish them; and the fish on the Columbia around the Hanford area will glow! I’d appreciate any tips on flies and conditions. Regino —

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<< I’ll be in Richand-Pasco, WA next week and would like to get some time on the river in between job assignments. What can anyone tell me about this area?  All I read is that the rivers are big; I would need a boat to fish them; and the fish on the Columbia around the Hanford area will glow! I’d appreciate any tips on flies and conditions. Regino   Regino, You will be about an hour to hour and a half from the famous Yakima River.  I highly recommend fishing it for wild Rainbow trout.  A local store in the area keeps a good web page about conditions.  I believe it is www.worleybugger.com In case that isn’t the right URL search under Worly Bugger Fly Shop. Fishing on the Columbia is very limited this time of year.  You can head over towards the Idaho border and get into some Spring Chinooks.  The Clearwater would be a decent bet there.  Unfortunately, I don’t fish that run so can’t be much help. Mike Spokane, WA

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I’ll be in Richand-Pasco, WA next week and would like to get some time on the river in between job assignments. What can anyone tell me about this area?  All I read is that the rivers are big; I would need a boat to fish them; and the fish on the Columbia around the Hanford area will glow! I’d appreciate any tips on flies and conditions. Regino

The Yakima River between Yakima and Ellensburg is pretty good.  It takes a bit over an hour to get there from Richland.   Unfortunately, this time of year usually means considerable flow in the river to support irrigation, but you may be able to find decent fish along the banks using hoppers. About an hour north of Richland is a spring creek called Rocky Ford.  It is between Moses Lake and Ephrata off of SR 17.  When I lived there, it was great in the early morning and in the evening, but quite slow during the day.  Fish (Columbia Redsides) averaged ~20-24 inches and 3-8 lbs.  If you go there, take small flies (no bigger than 18s). You also might try the Jon Day and the Deschutes in Oregon.  They are not that far from the Tri Cities.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be in Richand-Pasco, WA next week and would like to get some time on the river in between job assignments. What can anyone tell me about this area?  All I read is that the rivers are big; I would need a boat to fish them; and the fish on the Columbia around the Hanford area will glow! I’d appreciate any tips on flies and conditions. Regino The Yakima River between Yakima and Ellensburg is pretty good.  It takes a bit over an hour to get there from Richland.   Unfortunately, this time of year usually means considerable flow in the river to support irrigation, but you may be able to find decent fish along the banks using hoppers. About an hour north of Richland is a spring creek called Rocky Ford.  It is between Moses Lake and Ephrata off of SR 17.  When I lived there, it was great in the early morning and in the evening, but quite slow during the day.  Fish (Columbia Redsides) averaged ~20-24 inches and 3-8 lbs.  If you go there, take small flies (no bigger than 18s). You also might try the Jon Day and the Deschutes in Oregon.  They are not that far from the Tri Cities.

I also recommend Rocky Ford.  Very small flies work great, but we also did well for very large bows using San Juan Worms, so take those along too.  At times the lunkers would hit those like a freight train. Good Luck, Pat Kirkpatrick * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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I also recommend Rocky Ford.  Very small flies work great, but we also did well for very large bows using San Juan Worms, so take those along too.  At times the lunkers would hit those like a freight train. Good Luck, Pat Kirkpatrick

Oops….I also forgot one:  try wooly buggers around dusk. Pat:  Is the stretch below the lower hatchery still closed?  It used to be a great place to go to avoid other fishers….

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place to go to avoid other fishers….

Better check the reg’s.  We were there 2 years ago and it was open right below the hatchery.  Btw, we ran out of San Juan Worms and couldn’t find any locally.  Finally found a tackle/hardware shop in Soap Lake, and the owner/tyer tied some up while we ate dinner across the street–kind of a flys made to order while-you-wait deal! Cheers, PatK * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Btw, we ran out of San Juan Worms and couldn’t find any locally.  Finally found a tackle/hardware shop in Soap Lake, and the owner/tyer tied some up while we ate dinner across the street–kind of a flys made to order while-you-wait deal! Cheers,

Ah….I remember the Soap Lake shop well…..I always thought that opening a shop in Ephrata would be a good thing to do.  You know…..go to RF in the morning, figure out what is hatching, tie a bunch up and sell them for an exorbitant price to all the folks getting skunked on the stream. When I left WA (about 4 years ago or so) RF had just been closed to public access right above the discharge stream from the lower hatchery.   The first year it was closed I managed to obtain access from the owner, but he subsequently ceased granting such access.  Oh, well.

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There certainly is a dearth of flyfishing gear in that area, despite the ffing opportunities.  To insure a successful shop opening in that impoverished area, however, you may need to combine the flyshop with a Greasy Spoon diner, and maybe a gas station/general mercantile.  You know–a shopping mall not to exceed 1000sq.ft.! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Btw, we ran out of San Juan Worms and couldn’t find any locally.  Finally found a tackle/hardware shop in Soap Lake, and the owner/tyer tied some up while we ate dinner across the street–kind of a flys made to order while-you-wait deal! Cheers, Ah….I remember the Soap Lake shop well…..I always thought that opening a shop in Ephrata would be a good thing to do.  You know…..go to RF in the morning, figure out what is hatching, tie a bunch up and sell them for an exorbitant price to all the folks getting skunked on the stream. When I left WA (about 4 years ago or so) RF had just been closed to public access right above the discharge stream from the lower hatchery. The first year it was closed I managed to obtain access from the owner, but he subsequently ceased granting such access.  Oh, well.

Before you buy.

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Question:

InTheBite.Com has now added a full feature message board.  You can tell your fish stories, communicate with other fisherman, find fishing partners or post classifieds.  Just one more way we keep you "In the bite!" They even have a protected forum just for professional captains and crews. Check it out at:  http://www.inthebite.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.inthebite.com We are currently covering the 17th Annual Treasure Cay International Billfish Tournament and Our very own Robert "The Fly" Navorro is covering the 1st Annual June Moon Tournament in St.Thomas. Check in daily to see updates and results. Next week we round out the Bahamas Billfish Championships in Boat Harbour. This should be exciting to see who will win the 2000 title. Tournament updates will continue and in the near future we will have a system where you will be able to choose the tournaments updates of your choice. InTheBite.com http://www.inthebite.com The Crews Source

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http://www.inthebite.com We are currently covering the 17th Annual Treasure Cay International Billfish Tournament and Our very own Robert "The Fly" Navorro is covering the 1st Annual June Moon Tournament in St.Thomas. Check in daily to see updates and results. Next week we round out the Bahamas Billfish Championships in Boat Harbour. This should be exciting to see who will win the 2000 title. Tournament updates will continue and in the near future we will have a system where you will be able to choose the tournaments updates of your choice. InTheBite.com http://www.inthebite.com The Crews Source

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Question:

For great Fly Fishing in Wyoming, contact Paul at Jack Creek Outfitters.

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Is the Matthew Shepard case an isolated one, or most people at Laramie, Wyoming are violent and hatred-charged?  How safe is it for me, an Asian American to visit Wyoming?

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The folks in WY, in general, are about the same as people anywhere.  If anything, most go out of their way to be open and friendly.  There are psychopaths, misfits and criminals in WY just as there are in NY, LA, Iowa, Japan and elsewhere in the world.  Go and enjoy yourself.  You might consider NOT going into a cowboy bar, standing up on a stool and informing the patrons that Wyoming cowboys  are weenies. J. Rice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is the Matthew Shepard case an isolated one, or most people at Laramie, Wyoming are violent and hatred-charged?  How safe is it for me, an Asian American to visit Wyoming?

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Is the Matthew Shepard case an isolated one, or most people at Laramie, Wyoming are violent and hatred-charged?  How safe is it for me, an Asian American to visit Wyoming?

I’m sad to report that it is not safe at all. Neither is Colorado. I’d go to Montana or Idaho if I were you. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "Guilt replaced the creel…"

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It depends on where you have Colorado plates on your car. If you come and rent a car don’t get it in Denver with Colorado plates. I get yeld at and get "flipped off" by passing Wyoming folks on my way to fishing in the great windy state. Don’t want a border war over this post but they are a little thin skinned about us "greenees" (Colorado has green license plates) coming up and fishing their waters. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is the Matthew Shepard case an isolated one, or most people at Laramie, Wyoming are violent and hatred-charged?  How safe is it for me, an Asian American to visit Wyoming? Own

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Is the Matthew Shepard case an isolated one,

I live in Wyoming; few people here condone the terrible fate of Matt Shepard. There are many rednecks, but the vast majority aren’t violent. or most people at Laramie, Wyoming are violent and hatred-charged?

Once again, this is (as far as I can see) an isolated event. People here for the most part don’t hate minorities, or want to do vilence to any group, but quite a few have plenty of bias based on sexual preference. How safe is it for me, an Asian American to visit Wyoming?

In my opinion, you’ll be very safe. The criminals who murdered Matt were not representatives of the state. Frank Longtine                           The Second Amendment protects your liberties,   1984 Ford                                 not your hunting rights.       1997 Rokon Trail Breaker                       1993 Specialized Stumjumper Two Good Feet

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Don’t want a border war over this post but they are a little thin skinned about us "greenees" (Colorado has green license plates) coming up and fishing their waters.

Thin skinned?? Hey, I don’t mind you greenies fishing in my home water, so long as you don’t mind the caltrops. Just kidding, friend. Fish here all you like- I’ll welcome you anytime. But I won’t share my honey holes with you. You’ll have to earn them the same way I did- by working for them. Frank Longtine                           The Second Amendment protects your liberties,   1984 Ford                                 not your hunting rights.       1997 Rokon Trail Breaker                       1993 Specialized Stumjumper Two Good Feet

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How safe is it for me, an Asian American to visit Wyoming?

BTW, feel free to e-mail me if you need more info as to where to fish, stay, etc. Frank Frank Longtine                           The Second Amendment protects your liberties,   1984 Ford                                 not your hunting rights.       1997 Rokon Trail Breaker                       1993 Specialized Stumjumper Two Good Feet

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That’s fair. Good spots are to be guarded from slash and burn fishermen and those who can’t keep a secret. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Don’t want a border war over this post but they are a little thin skinned about us "greenees" (Colorado has green license plates) coming up and fishing their waters. Thin skinned?? Hey, I don’t mind you greenies fishing in my home water, so long as you don’t mind the caltrops. Just kidding, friend. Fish here all you like- I’ll welcome you anytime. But I won’t share my honey holes with you. You’ll have to earn them the same way I did- by working for them. Frank Longtine                           The Second Amendment protects your liberties, 1984 Ford                                 not your hunting rights. 1997 Rokon Trail Breaker 1993 Specialized Stumjumper Two Good Feet

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Question:

: I hear there’s a good stream in Vail…. Hey, that’s my bit. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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It’s rare indeed, but if you can find that section of clear bank, slightly inclined, it is possible to ski down while trolling a wooley bugger… TimW

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Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of skiers who flyfish or flyfishers who ski. I was wondering what kind of turnout might be expected for a flyfishing show held at a ski resort or in a ski resort town where the flyfishing show would be scheduled for the evenings (3 to 10PM).  Please respond directly. thanks, Bill Althoff

The ski industry does a lot of market research including reseach on other sports of interest to skiers.  I have seen those reports in the past but don’t recall the fly fishing is very the list of other sports of interest to skiers.  Ski Area Management magazine could probably give you the data, or put you in touch with the people that have the data. For what it’s worth, my personal observation (28 years teaching skiing, 32 years fly fishing) is that there is not very much natural attraction between skiers and flyfishing (at least alpine, downhill skiers). In contrast, there is a very high cross-over between skiing and sailing or windsurfing.  I suspect you will find a higher correlation between nordic skiers and flyfishing.  I do think however that as interest in fly fishing has increased in recent years, that skiers as a group are a likely target for "recruiting".

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<<<<< clipity clip clip I suspect you will find a higher correlation between nordic skiers and flyfishing.<<<<<< rest clipped

Using backcountry ski’s to get up to fish some pretty areas in the winter sounds great to me. You might want to find some Rivers or Lakes that don’t freeze over tho. It’d be pretty boring to be casting to that little hole in the ice! Ted…. (I x-country ski, but have never tried this)

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Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of skiers who flyfish or flyfishers who ski. I was wondering what kind of turnout might be expected for a flyfishing show held at a ski resort or in a ski resort town where the flyfishing show would be scheduled for the evenings (3 to 10PM).  Please respond directly. thanks, Bill Althoff

In general, these would be the people I’d avoid like the plague.   Strictly the Jeep Grand Cherokee-driving, capuccino-sipping, Cuban cigar-smoking, "Friends"-watching, cellular phone-carrying, lunch-doing, narcissistic, over-paid, post-Yuppie (have I covered it all?) crowd. I’ll stay home and re-read Haig-Brown. –Rich

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I don’t know about statistics, but I love fly fishing and my family loves skiing (I have problems skiing due to arthritis). So, we usually go out west skiing for my kids spring break (first week of April) and I look for ski areas near good fishing opportunities. A lot of ski areas are right near great fishing areas because mountain streams are great for fishing. My sense is that the FF business picks up in the summer after the snow is gone. A good time to do a show, would be first week of April. Spring skiing is good then and so is pre run-off fishing. Steve Rosenblum

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Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of skiers who flyfish or flyfishers who ski.

Here’s the sad tale of why these don’t mix. In 1967 a nice friend of the family gave me a gift. He knew I loved fishing so he gave me a bamboo flyrod. Took me a long time to figure out how to use it, couldn’t get that fat line through the hook eye, bait kept flying off when I cast, etc. Finally saw a story in a mag at the rec center, butchered my sister’s Barbie doll, raided the Xmas stuff and tied me a fly. Caught some tinker mackerel and pollock on it. All this was well and good until skiing ruined it. In 1968 I used to ski on a hill behind my house. At the base of that hill lived a – high school girl (I was 12 at the time) and she was cuuute. After the Olympics she had a crush on Jean Claude Killy. I had a pair of skiis, but didn’t have any gates to fly through and win her heart. I cut up all my fishing poles (I had a lot of them) and set me one hell of a course. Learned to ski through it too. She ran away with a basketball player. I had no fishing poles. It was many years later when I was poking around my Dad’s basement, that I found the cork grip with a little stubb of bamboo sticking out of it. A little stub that said "Orvis" on it. This is all true, I only hope that wasn’t a Wes Jordan I ran GS through. So you see skiing and flyfishing just plain don’t mix. The woman part is arguable.                                                                 jc

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Does anyone have any statistics on the percentage of skiers who flyfish or flyfishers who ski. I was wondering what kind of turnout might be expected for a flyfishing show held at a ski resort or in a ski resort town where the flyfishing show would be scheduled for the evenings (3 to 10PM).  Please respond directly.

No statistics, just a few ideas. The same can be said for fly-fishing and skiing regarding portions of the sport.    

Question:

Any suggestions for a line for Pike.  I am tempted to go for a floating shooting head, but noticed SA Mastery have a purpose built Pike line – Has anyone used this? Thanks

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Any suggestions for a line for Pike.  I am tempted to go for a floating shooting head, but noticed SA Mastery have a purpose built Pike line – Has anyone used this? ThanksYes.  I’ve used it for Muskie (and Largemouths).  It does everything I

need from such a line.  I can even roll-cast, after a fashion. Bob Lundy IWFFC Mississauga, ON http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rlundy — Bob Lundy IWFFC Mississauga, ON, Canada http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rlundy

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Any suggestions for a line for Pike.  I am tempted to go for a floating shooting head, but noticed SA Mastery have a purpose built Pike line – Has anyone used this? Thanks

Simon, I had great success for pike using a shooting head system with intermediate thru xtra-fast sink heads. I bought a couple of floating shooting heads, but never used them because they’re incredibly thick and bulky on the reel when compared with the sinking heads. Also, since you’ll probably be fishing big streamers and stripping them most of the time, it really doesn’t matter if the head sinks. (Often it’s even more desirable to use xtra-fast sink to get the streamers down to submerged weed beds. As to the special-purpose pike lines, I havn’t tried them because I just can’t justify a line which was built for just one specific purpose like that. A good shooting-head system is infinitely more versatile. (Plus allows you to cast heavier flies further and with less effort than a full-length line.) Regards, Fred

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Any suggestions for a line for Pike.  I am tempted to go for a floating shooting head, but noticed SA Mastery have a purpose built Pike line – Has anyone used this? Thanks

Simon,    I don’t think shooting heads will give you any advantages.  In fact, I think they’ll cause more problems than fix.  A long cast is not needed, and the pike often hit it close to the boat leaving you with a bunch of line to clear.  Sight fishing is also a definite possibility with pike, so you need a line that can deliver the fly accurately.  Also, in the spring and fall they are in shallow water, so a sinking line is not needed (maybe for summer).  I use a cortland pike taper, and it works fine, but I’ve thrown the same flies (2/0 bunny flies and mega-divers) with an inexpensive cortland 444 WF 8wt and a bass bug taper lazer line.  They work well enough.  In my opinion, a shooting taper is not the correct line.  A pike or bass bug floating weight forward is what I’d reccomend. Rob Gregoire

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Question:

A brief followup to my previous Paint Branch query: A friend and I fished there today (in the snow!) downstream of Briggs Cheney Road, upstream of Fairland Road. It looked like good trout habitat, relatively clear water, good riffles and drops, nice pools, good forest buffer for a hundred yards or more on either side… …but no fish in sight.  (The only sign of life was one little sculpin wriggling across the bottom.)  Are the trout extinct there, or just hibernating still? Scott in DC

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A brief followup to my previous Paint Branch query: A friend and I fished there today (in the snow!) downstream of Briggs Cheney Road, upstream of Fairland Road. It looked like good trout habitat, relatively clear water, good riffles and drops, nice pools, good forest buffer for a hundred yards or more on either side… …but no fish in sight.  (The only sign of life was one little sculpin wriggling across the bottom.)  Are the trout extinct there, or just hibernating still? Scott in DC

Scott, Although I never tried fishing Paint Branch, I scouted it once during the early Summer with a pair of polarized glasses and observed two or three small trout.  By the way, there’s lots of great flyfishing for Smallmouth available in your local area. Regards, Eric Higgins

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Question:

I have the opportunity to buy a used 2-man fiberglass drift boat, equiped w/oars, anchor, trailer, etc., but I’m really not sure what’s the going price? Any ideas?  Please let me know what to what out for in buying a used fiberglass drift.

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Please let me know what to what out for in buying a used fiberglass drift.

Leaks? — -Wayne Trzyna

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i looked at boat that could handle two persons only (not sure of the size) and the guy was asking $1400.  Because of the small size and ability to carry such a light load, many people don’t want them.  Bottom line is that the guy took $800 for it. Having had a few drift boat, don’t get sucked into the price and compromise on the size.  A two man boat offers limited carry capacity.  You will always have more gear then you anticipate plus at least two other friends who want to fish.   I just built a 17′ flyfishing model that can carry 3 fisherman and one oarsman confortability, first one I ever owned that really is close to what I need.   — Gene Dobrzynski, Eagle River, Alaska

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Question:

Jensen) writes: Looking for foul weather gear

I would not look too hard for a bargin when looking for raingear, you will regret it later.  Get yourself some Grundens, Guy Cottons, or as a last resort some Helly Hansons(although Hellys have really gone down hill lately).  I work in the seafood industry in Alaska, and I have found that Grundens makes the best raingear out there.  And you can get it in day glow colors if you want to.  Look at comercial fishing outlets for them.

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: I would not look too hard for a bargin when looking for raingear, you will : regret it later.  Get yourself some Grundens, Guy Cottons, or as a last : resort some Helly Hansons(although Hellys have really gone down hill : lately).  I work in the seafood industry in Alaska, and I have found that : Grundens makes the best raingear out there.  And you can get it in day : glow colors if you want to.  Look at comercial fishing outlets for them. faulies, not me. But I would like to check out a commercial supplier in LA or OC, just to see what’s there.  Anyone know where to find one?

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-    I’m looking for foul weather gear but don’t want to pay the high prices – that the local stores charge.  Is there a good mail order place for this – stuff? I recently found a Helly Hansen mfg’s outlet store near Kenosha, Wisconsin.  I think they were just trying to sell yuppie sweaters and similar trendy stuff and they had their real foul weather gear on the shelf just to impress people. Never the less, they did have everything from their low end, $120 suits, to their high end, $900 suits.  They also had a hand written tag that explained in detail why each item was a mfg defect.  If I didn’t already have a suit I would have been very tempted to buy a $270 suit for $180 because they got their name embrodered on the wrong corner of the pocket. G. Jackson

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        I postedthis elsewhere so I’ll post it here.  Don’t get sucked in by all that expensive sailing oriented shit.  Read on.      On my first ocean cruise in 1981, I bought some "Offshore" foul weather gear at R.E.I. in Seattle.  Total piece of shit. After some pretty rough usage (we lost a rudder) and 31 days at sea, the seams leaked.  I took them back to R.E.I.  They said that they wern’t meant for the kind of sailing I do, but for the "weekend" sailor." I said "Well why the fuck! do you call it "Offshore"? To make a long story short, they wouldn’t refund my money and it just confirmed my opinion of R.E.I. as a fashion house for frustrated yuuppies. Growing up in Seattle, I have resisted the R.E.I Clone look mightily although I have to admit, Pile Jackets are great for me as I’m allergic to wool.      Where is this leading to?      Buy Helly Hansen fisherman foul weather gear. No seams, no fly, no pockets, NO LEAK!!!!  I’ve worn mine for 10 years fishing in Alaska and California and on many trans ocean sails.  Still wearing them.  My mother is borrowing them for a river rafting trip this month.  About $80 last time I bought (I have two pair) — — Turn off ascii capture on the personal computer 4;1H Press the <Return Key to return to mail … —

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     On my first ocean cruise in 1981, I bought some "Offshore" foul weather gear at R.E.I. in Seattle.  Total piece of shit. After some pretty rough usage (we lost a rudder) and 31 days at sea, the seams leaked.  I took them back to R.E.I.  They said that they wern’t meant for the kind of sailing I do, but for the "weekend" sailor."I said "Well why the fuck! do you call it "Offshore"? To make a long story short, they wouldn’t refund my money and it just confirmed my opinion of R.E.I. as a fashion house for frustrated yuuppies. Growing up in Seattle, I have resisted the R.E.I Clone look mightily although I have to admit, Pile Jackets are great for me as I’m allergic to wool.      Where is this leading to?      Buy HELLY HANSEN fisherman foul weather gear. No seams, no fly, no pockets, NO LEAK!!!! And they are tough as steel and easy to patch. I’ve worn mine for 10 years fishing in Alaska and California and on many trans ocean sails.  Still  wearing them.  My mother is borrowing them for a river rafting  trip this month.  About $80 last time I bought (I have two pair) —

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     I’m looking for foul weather gear but don’t want to pay the high prices that the local stores charge.  Is there a good mail order place for this stuff?                                      we suck!"

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:      I’m looking for foul weather gear but don’t want to pay the high prices : that the local stores charge.  Is there a good mail order place for this : stuff? I wouldn’t do it.  I would rather have something that fits.  I ended up with a "Grotto" jacket from Boat/US and Explorer trousers from West Marine because each fit properly.  (I can hear them fighting in the closet.) It’s kind of hit and miss because everything is S/M/L/XL. My biggest disapointment was the lack of rad colors. And my BIG IDEA, now placed in the public domain, is glow-in-the-dark zippers – so you can get them on at 3 am.

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