Question:

"ci+" <c…@ciNukeSpam.com> wrote in news:Xns95583DE20A3D7ci@65.245.115.2: > not mentioning that some of hose were Carter ‘babies’. also ignoring > reasons why a repug or demcon might have rejected those weapons, such as > obsolescence  

Hey, the B1 was great in Afghanistan, we can pound the hell out people–as long as they have no fighter or missle defenses!

Response:

"Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" <a…@at.org> in news:Xns955840562E99Ffkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6: >"ci+" <c…@ciNukeSpam.com> wrote in >news:Xns95583DE20A3D7ci@65.245.115.2: >> not mentioning that some of hose were Carter ‘babies’. also ignoring >> reasons why a repug or demcon might have rejected those weapons, such >> as obsolescence   > Hey, the B1 was great in Afghanistan, we can pound the hell out > people–as long as they have no fighter or missle defenses!

it must be cheaper to operate than a  b2. maybe the costs have been amortized or whatever. maybe it carries more tonnage than a b2? — If Tolkien didn’t want us to eat Hobbits, why did he make them of meat?

Response:

"ci+" <c…@ciNukeSpam.com> wrote in news:Xns95587B395BB97ci@65.245.115.2: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" <a…@at.org> in > news:Xns955840562E99Ffkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6: >>"ci+" <c…@ciNukeSpam.com> wrote in >>news:Xns95583DE20A3D7ci@65.245.115.2: >>> not mentioning that some of hose were Carter ‘babies’. also ignoring >>> reasons why a repug or demcon might have rejected those weapons, such >>> as obsolescence   >> Hey, the B1 was great in Afghanistan, we can pound the hell out >> people–as long as they have no fighter or missle defenses! > it must be cheaper to operate than a  b2. maybe the costs have been > amortized or whatever. maybe it carries more tonnage than a b2?

It was made in California…which has a large number of representatives in Congress.  Other than that I can’t think of a reason why the USAF wanted a high-altitude bomber.  Vested interests & entrenched beauracrats would be my guess. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

"Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" <a…@at.org> wrote in message <news:Xns95582DA24AE22fkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Cutups and Cutthroats > By MAUREEN DOWD > Published: September 2, 2004 > I always enjoy hearing about how a teenage Dick Cheney stood off to the > side with buckets of water to put out Lynne’s flaming batons. > But there was an even better moment during Claire Shipman’s two-part "Good > Morning America" interview at the Wyoming ranch this week. Trying to > humanize Dr. No, ABC was let into the inner sanctum to watch Mr. Cheney > take his 4-year-old granddaughter on her first solo horsie ride and hear > how he’s teaching his granddaughters fly-fishing. > Advertisement > Ms. Shipman asked the vice president "his greatest guilty pleasure." > His wife quickly interjected that it was fishing. But we all know, of > course, it’s global domination. > It’s always amusing to watch Republicans try to get down. At convention > time, they stop bilking Joe Lunchbox to act like Joe Lunchbox.

how do you make hitler funny? h

Response:

"Eerie Cabinets of Dr. Rodent" <a…@at.org> in news:Xns95582DA24AE22fkjdlkvjcxoiuarepoij@68.6.19.6: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Cutups and Cutthroats > By MAUREEN DOWD > Published: September 2, 2004 > I always enjoy hearing about how a teenage Dick Cheney stood off to > the side with buckets of water to put out Lynne’s flaming batons. > But there was an even better moment during Claire Shipman’s two-part > "Good Morning America" interview at the Wyoming ranch this week. > Trying to humanize Dr. No, ABC was let into the inner sanctum to watch > Mr. Cheney take his 4-year-old granddaughter on her first solo horsie > ride and hear how he’s teaching his granddaughters fly-fishing. > Advertisement > Ms. Shipman asked the vice president "his greatest guilty pleasure." > His wife quickly interjected that it was fishing. But we all know, of > course, it’s global domination. > It’s always amusing to watch Republicans try to get down. At > convention time, they stop bilking Joe Lunchbox to act like Joe > Lunchbox. > How awkward in Columbus, when W., hanging with Jack Nicklaus, noted > that his grandfather was born there, so they should "send a homeboy > back to Washington, D.C." Do they know a homeboy from a Lawn-Boy? > How you livin’, dawg? > And speaking of dawgs, whuddup with that video of Barney debating that > French poodle Fifi Kerry about taxes? By the time the twins finished > their White House Valley Girl routine, and Karl Rove and Karen Hughes > went all giddy in the sendup, the convention’s arc was clear. > Highly scripted screwball moments designed to soothe fears that the > Bushies are bullies alternate with high-octane, turbo moments designed > to stir up fears that we won’t be safe without the Bush bullies. > Unlike the arrogant Boston Kerry strategists, who focus-grouped and > dial-a- metered their convention to death, scrubbing most of the > direct attacks on President Bush, the arrogant Austin Bush strategists > have encouraged their non-girlie-men speakers to put the pedal to the > metal and flatten the poor Democrat who is windsurfing through his > free fall. > Despite the fact that the economy is cratering, Iraq is teetering,

those 2 seem exaggerated . > Afghanistan is reverting to warlords,

is it? i think it’s had setbacks, and their citizens suffer typical human inflexibilty… guaranteeing slow social progress…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Dick Cheney is glowering at the > world, the war on terror has created more acts of terror, Ahmad > Chalabi is an accused spy for Iran and the Pentagon has an accused spy > for Israel, Republicans felt so good about themselves that when Arnold > Schwarzenegger said he was inspired to become a Republican by Richard > Nixon, they exploded. When Tricky Dick is a hot applause line, they’re > feeling cocky. > Republicans are political killers. They are confident that Americans, > in a 9/11 world, are going to be more drawn to political killers who > have made some "miscalculations" on Iraq, as W. put it, than with a > shaggy-haired Vietnam War protester whom Bush 41 compares to Hanoi > Jane. >"I still have great difficulty with his coming back and making those > statements before the Congress and throwing medals away," the > president’s father told Don Imus yesterday. > Republicans know that plunging ahead with a course of action, even if > it becomes obvious it’s wrong, is an easier political sell than > flip-flopping, even if it’s right.

funny how foxnews dittohead hotheads don’t even realize that the repugs are sinking in their own quicksand… all on their own. no one is really opposing them. > When the president slipped, admitting that the war on terror is > unwinnable – perhaps recognizing that terror’s a tactic, not an enemy > – he had to be saved later by Laura Bush, who fixed his stumble into > nuance. Then Mr. Kerry made the mistake of responding in Bush > black-and-white, calling the war on terror winnable.

ha! kerry says almost nothing. bush out-bloopers kerry. which is worse? … >: > While Democrats whined about the meanies and their Swift boat attacks, > the G.O.P. juggernaut rolled on. > Zell Miller, playing Cotton Mather behind the cross-like lectern, made > Mr. Cheney seem rational, with a maniacal litany of weapons he said > Mr. Kerry had opposed that can destroy any mud hut in any third world > country: B-1 and B-2 bombers, F-14A Tomcats, F-15 Eagles, Patriot and > Trident missiles, and Aegis cruisers.

not mentioning that some of hose were Carter ‘babies’. also ignoring reasons why a repug or demcon might have rejected those weapons, such as obsolescence   > Just as the "third party" ad effort has been ferocious and misleading, > so have some of the attack speeches here. Dick Cheney stomped on John > Kerry the way he’s stomped on the world. In fact, he stomped on Mr. > Kerry for trying to get along with the world: "He talks about leading > ‘a more sensitive war on terror’ as though Al Qaeda will be impressed > with our softer side." It’s nice to know Mr. Cheney remembers Al > Qaeda.

 ’a more sensitive war on terror’ i’ve hearda bout this only via insulting reactoins. just now googled, http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg200408061120.asp whihc is amazingly polite ciriticism, rare among wrought-wingers. if this column is accurate regarding kerry’s intended meaning behind his phrase ‘more sensitive war on terror’, then kerry’s missing out on what his phrase *should* have meant. becoming frineds with citizens of countries whrer terrorirsts "breed" is probably the most effective "war   on terror"…. ’sensitive’ or ‘nonsensitive’. > As others raged, Mr. Bush flew to New York and went to an Italian > community center to eat pizza with Queens firemen. The homeboy was > having a ruthless, but effective, week.

did they have an orgies? why do repugs have all the fun! i must be too sensitive. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8 &q=firemen+sex+Scandal++Fordham+%7C+Brooklyn%7C+york — A nude Gollum on your doorstep is burn baby, burn

Response:

Cutups and Cutthroats By MAUREEN DOWD Published: September 2, 2004 I always enjoy hearing about how a teenage Dick Cheney stood off to the side with buckets of water to put out Lynne’s flaming batons. But there was an even better moment during Claire Shipman’s two-part "Good Morning America" interview at the Wyoming ranch this week. Trying to humanize Dr. No, ABC was let into the inner sanctum to watch Mr. Cheney take his 4-year-old granddaughter on her first solo horsie ride and hear how he’s teaching his granddaughters fly-fishing. Advertisement Ms. Shipman asked the vice president "his greatest guilty pleasure." His wife quickly interjected that it was fishing. But we all know, of course, it’s global domination. It’s always amusing to watch Republicans try to get down. At convention time, they stop bilking Joe Lunchbox to act like Joe Lunchbox. How awkward in Columbus, when W., hanging with Jack Nicklaus, noted that his grandfather was born there, so they should "send a homeboy back to Washington, D.C." Do they know a homeboy from a Lawn-Boy? How you livin’, dawg? And speaking of dawgs, whuddup with that video of Barney debating that French poodle Fifi Kerry about taxes? By the time the twins finished their White House Valley Girl routine, and Karl Rove and Karen Hughes went all giddy in the sendup, the convention’s arc was clear. Highly scripted screwball moments designed to soothe fears that the Bushies are bullies alternate with high-octane, turbo moments designed to stir up fears that we won’t be safe without the Bush bullies. Unlike the arrogant Boston Kerry strategists, who focus-grouped and dial-a- metered their convention to death, scrubbing most of the direct attacks on President Bush, the arrogant Austin Bush strategists have encouraged their non-girlie-men speakers to put the pedal to the metal and flatten the poor Democrat who is windsurfing through his free fall. Despite the fact that the economy is cratering, Iraq is teetering, Afghanistan is reverting to warlords, Dick Cheney is glowering at the world, the war on terror has created more acts of terror, Ahmad Chalabi is an accused spy for Iran and the Pentagon has an accused spy for Israel, Republicans felt so good about themselves that when Arnold Schwarzenegger said he was inspired to become a Republican by Richard Nixon, they exploded. When Tricky Dick is a hot applause line, they’re feeling cocky. Republicans are political killers. They are confident that Americans, in a 9/11 world, are going to be more drawn to political killers who have made some "miscalculations" on Iraq, as W. put it, than with a shaggy-haired Vietnam War protester whom Bush 41 compares to Hanoi Jane. "I still have great difficulty with his coming back and making those statements before the Congress and throwing medals away," the president’s father told Don Imus yesterday. Republicans know that plunging ahead with a course of action, even if it becomes obvious it’s wrong, is an easier political sell than flip-flopping, even if it’s right. When the president slipped, admitting that the war on terror is unwinnable – perhaps recognizing that terror’s a tactic, not an enemy – he had to be saved later by Laura Bush, who fixed his stumble into nuance. Then Mr. Kerry made the mistake of responding in Bush black-and-white, calling the war on terror winnable. While Democrats whined about the meanies and their Swift boat attacks, the G.O.P. juggernaut rolled on. Zell Miller, playing Cotton Mather behind the cross-like lectern, made Mr. Cheney seem rational, with a maniacal litany of weapons he said Mr. Kerry had opposed that can destroy any mud hut in any third world country: B-1 and B-2 bombers, F-14A Tomcats, F-15 Eagles, Patriot and Trident missiles, and Aegis cruisers. Just as the "third party" ad effort has been ferocious and misleading, so have some of the attack speeches here. Dick Cheney stomped on John Kerry the way he’s stomped on the world. In fact, he stomped on Mr. Kerry for trying to get along with the world: "He talks about leading ‘a more sensitive war on terror’ as though Al Qaeda will be impressed with our softer side." It’s nice to know Mr. Cheney remembers Al Qaeda. As others raged, Mr. Bush flew to New York and went to an Italian community center to eat pizza with Queens firemen. The homeboy was having a ruthless, but effective, week.

Response:

Question:

I have several week-long gigs coming up in February in Colorado Springs, CO.  It’s a 5 or 6 hour drive from ABQ.  I could also cram my fat butt into a RJ and it is a 1 hour flight (Mesa), or I could take a more comfortable (for me) 737 from ABQ-DEN-COS (United), or ABQ-PHX-COS (America West) and it would take 5 or 6 hours. Of course, that does not include the time spent driving to the airport, parking, checking in, going through security, and then waiting on my half-moons for departing flights / connections. You know what?  I’m driving a rental car.  No revenue for the airlines.  You can blame the TSA – final straw.  If the time spent is more-or-less equal, I’ll drive from now on.  Far less hassle. Of course, I’ll still be flying a lot – some places are just too far away to drive to reasonably.  But when I can, I’ll drive.  Screw the TSA. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

fat butt into a RJ and it is a 1 hour flight (Mesa), or I could take a more comfortable (for me) 737 from ABQ-DEN-COS (United), or ABQ-PHX-COS (America West) and it would take 5 or 6 hours.

Or you could make an even bigger statement and take Amtrak Depart Albuquerque at 13:00, arrive Raton at 17.53, leave Raton by bus at 18:00 arrive Colorado Springs at 21:00 Yeah, longer than by car, but on the train ride, you get to travel in a long-haul train with all its services (dining car etc), and I believe that the coach to Cos is a garanteed connection. And your added business to amtrak will be noticed by the government much more than just riding your car which won’t show up in any real statistic. Greyhound  code-shares on T.N.N & O Coaches on a direct Albuquerque -Colorado Springs service with a few departures per day. But they take about the same time as the train. (about 8 hours). I am curious, when you say 5 or 6 hours, does that involve seriously going over the speed limit without any stops ? I am curious as to why a bus would take so much longer (it doesn’t have many stops, check www.greyhound.com) Another option you may consider is to drive around the ABQ airport to get a list of private charter operators (the small planes/airlines nobody knows about). perhaps they run some taxi services or low cost charters which might be feasable for you.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have several week-long gigs coming up in February in Colorado Springs, CO.  It’s a 5 or 6 hour drive from ABQ.  I could also cram my fat butt into a RJ and it is a 1 hour flight (Mesa), or I could take a more comfortable (for me) 737 from ABQ-DEN-COS (United), or ABQ-PHX-COS (America West) and it would take 5 or 6 hours. Of course, that does not include the time spent driving to the airport, parking, checking in, going through security, and then waiting on my half-moons for departing flights / connections. You know what?  I’m driving a rental car.  No revenue for the airlines.  You can blame the TSA – final straw.  If the time spent is more-or-less equal, I’ll drive from now on.  Far less hassle. Of course, I’ll still be flying a lot – some places are just too far away to drive to reasonably.  But when I can, I’ll drive.  Screw the TSA.

   Yup.  Went to Savannah in Dec.  Someone asked why we weren’t flying. It’s a 5 hour trip tops.  To fly means a half hour drive to the airport.  Getting there 1.5 hours prior to departure.  An hour gate to gate.  half hour to collect baggage.  Ya gotta arrange transport to your hotel.  Tops you save maybe an hour flying, and you have to travel on their schedule.  Ya drive, you leave when you want to leave.  You have a car when you get there.  No air traffic delays or weather holds.  No one groping you up and down unless you want them too.  You can carry your swiss army knife with you.  The only really down side is the drive is dull as hell.       For me break even is somewhere around 5 hours.  7 hours is a tad long but in certian situations, preferable.

Response:

I have several week-long gigs coming up in February in Colorado Springs, CO.  It’s a 5 or 6 hour drive from ABQ.  I could also cram my fat butt into a RJ and it is a 1 hour flight (Mesa), or I could take a more comfortable (for me) 737 from ABQ-DEN-COS (United), or ABQ-PHX-COS (America West) and it would take 5 or 6 hours.

No big deal… Twice in the last 15 months, we’ve driven from Central Texas to the castle Rock area North of COS.  850 miles, a really long day’s run, but split between two drivers, not bad, and both times stimulated by the amount "stuff" (and two dogs) we were taking. In late August/early September, Central Texas-Ocala-Orlando- Cocoa-Jax and back, after fuguring projected rental car and air travel costs and considering two weeks worth of luggage including both beach and some rerquiried "dress-up", a decent tradeout. To the coast fishing once a month, a five hundred mile RT, to a destination unserved by air, and why would anybody fly on a business trip that required more than two flights each way yet was less than 4-500 miles away, easy and comfortable one day drives. I suspect that I’m not alone and that a number of business travelers have increased their driving.  Certainly, pleasure travel seems to have to some extent returned to the "car".  The cruise line folks certainly admit to it when they begin to berth cruise ships around the Gulf instead of all in Florida. …and cars are not unlike airlines.  Give me AA economy seat pitch and a larger more comnfortable vehicle. Reductions in service and potential delays now make it very difficult and often very costly for me to get to Chicago, a 4 times a year jaunt, in time to do any business or make an afternoon meeting (except by getting up long pre-dawn and driving 100+ miles to DAL or DFW, not worth the effort), so like Bill, I’ve "slowed" my trips, adding an extra day, leaving late AM and not arriving until the cocktail hour, a less stressful approach. TMO

Response:

You know what?  I’m driving a rental car.

Why a rental car instead of your own car? — Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Response:

You know what?  I’m driving a rental car. Why a rental car instead of your own car?

I am on an expense account.  I get reimbursed for money spent to rent a car, not for driving my own.  And yes, I know I could declare my milage on my income tax return, but my itemized deductions come out WAY less than the standard deduction.  So, best deal for me is to rent.  Plus, I don’t want to wind the miles onto my old beater. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

I am curious, when you say 5 or 6 hours, does that involve seriously going over the speed limit without any stops ? I am curious as to why a bus would take so much longer (it doesn’t have many stops, check www.greyhound.com)

Speed limit out here in the Wild West is 75 mph.  For cars.  Trucks and busses have a 65 mph limit.  I set the cruise control at 80 and away I go. Bus?  Um, no.  Train I could do, and have in the distant past.  But no to the bus. I tend to stop in Raton for lunch, get to the Springs by dinner. Works great! Plus, in New Mexico one can carry loaded guns concealed in the car legally.  Considered an extension of hearth and home.  I have to unload and lock it away at the Colorado border, or alternatively keep it in plain sight. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

I have several week-long gigs coming up in February in Colorado Springs, CO.  It’s a 5 or 6 hour drive from ABQ.  I could also cram my fat butt into a RJ and it is a 1 hour flight (Mesa),

you sure ’bout that, Bill?  I’d assume that if you flew Mesa ABQ-COS, which would NOT be an HP code-share, but under Mesa’s own code (YV), your fat butt would get to experience the aerial joys of a lovely 19-passenger Beech 1900D rather than a CRJ. On the upside, you’d get to leave ABQ from one of the ground-level commuter gates, which upon my last trip to your home airport seemed to have much less of the TSA, er, ‘presence’.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am curious, when you say 5 or 6 hours, does that involve seriously going over the speed limit without any stops ? I am curious as to why a bus would take so much longer (it doesn’t have many stops, check www.greyhound.com) Speed limit out here in the Wild West is 75 mph.  For cars.  Trucks and busses have a 65 mph limit.  I set the cruise control at 80 and away I go. Bus?  Um, no.  Train I could do, and have in the distant past.  But no to the bus. I tend to stop in Raton for lunch, get to the Springs by dinner. Works great! Plus, in New Mexico one can carry loaded guns concealed in the car legally.  Considered an extension of hearth and home.  I have to unload and lock it away at the Colorado border, or alternatively keep it in plain sight. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

That’s real good about being able to conceal the gun in New Mexico. You never know when someone may be fucking with you and then you can blast them away to oblivion. John

Response:

What time "going through security"? I haven’t had a security wait of longer than 5 minutes in months. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have several week-long gigs coming up in February in Colorado Springs, CO.  It’s a 5 or 6 hour drive from ABQ.  I could also cram my fat butt into a RJ and it is a 1 hour flight (Mesa), or I could take a more comfortable (for me) 737 from ABQ-DEN-COS (United), or ABQ-PHX-COS (America West) and it would take 5 or 6 hours. Of course, that does not include the time spent driving to the airport, parking, checking in, going through security, and then waiting on my half-moons for departing flights / connections. You know what?  I’m driving a rental car.  No revenue for the airlines.  You can blame the TSA – final straw.  If the time spent is more-or-less equal, I’ll drive from now on.  Far less hassle. Of course, I’ll still be flying a lot – some places are just too far away to drive to reasonably.  But when I can, I’ll drive.  Screw the TSA. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

That’s real good about being able to conceal the gun in New Mexico. You never know when someone may be fucking with you and then you can blast them away to oblivion. John

Mr. Novicki, People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

That’s real good about being able to conceal the gun in New Mexico. You never know when someone may be fucking with you and then you can blast them away to oblivion. John Mr. Novicki, People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Geez, Bill. That sounds ominous. Does that mean you are coming after me? John

Response:

Traveled in the area a couple months ago; traffic gets heavy around Pueblo, stop and go, with long stop stretches, from south of Colorado Springs to Fort Collins.  According to the local folks, I-25 clears a bit between Fort Collins and Cheyenne, and below Pueblo, the rest is very heavy to stop and go. Bus?  Um, no.  Train I could do, and have in the distant past.  But no to the bus. I tend to stop in Raton for lunch, get to the Springs by dinner. Works great!

– wf. Wayne Flowers Randee Greenwald

Response:

Geez, Bill. That sounds ominous. Does that mean you are coming after me? John

Of course not.  Go on being the angry, vulgar old man you’ve always been, and I’ll go on ignoring you as I did in the past. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

Question:

Done that for bass.  Clear lake in norther California has vast fields of tulies and that is about the only way to fish them. We would use the same tackle we used for  Poke Poling – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff This technique is known as "Doodel Socking",  or simply "Doodeling". For more info have a look at http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/oldflies/part11.html TL MC

Response:

abcpicts wrote I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.  …..

Funny you should mention this.  Our club speaker this month was an interesting ol’ character named Harry Smith who uses a very similar technique to illicit frenzied response from bass. His fly is a hookless bird pattern about the size of a baby bird.  He simply ties the birdfly to a short (3-4") spring loaded leader that is tied directly to the rod tip….No reel!.  Harry gets into the weeds and begins dabbling the little birdie here and there until he gets the attention of one or more bass and then the fun begins. The video footage he presented is absolutely amazing!  The fish grab the fly, take it down, eventually let it go….then come back for more.  Harry claims several hundred strikes in an hour.  It’s amazing that the fish keep after the pattern in spite of their lack of success in acquiring any protein from the effort. —                                                       -dnc-

Response:

I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff

Response:

There is a version of fly fishing practised in the UK called "dapping". It involves the use of a long rod, a light line and a fine leader. The rod is fished down wind from a boat and the wind bounces the fly from wave to wave. This sounds  like the word you need. Although, your description does not sound like fly fishing in the traditional sense.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff

Response:

bug-dunkin — Don Thompson Another Thompson Scion

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff

Response:

I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff

This technique is known as "Doodel Socking",  or simply "Doodeling". For more info have a look at http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/oldflies/part11.html TL MC

Response:

There is a version of fly fishing practised in the UK called "dapping". It involves the use of a long rod, a light line and a fine leader.

My understanding is that dapping isn’t usually done with a fine tippet. After all, the tippet isn’t supposed to get into the water. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

<SNIP My understanding is that dapping isn’t usually done with a fine tippet. After all, the tippet isn’t supposed to get into the water.

Your understanding is correct. Using too fine a leader is a serious mistake when dapping. I have never used anything less than eight pound mono. Dapping tends to attract large fish. http://www.fishandfly.co.uk/jbedit0699.html http://www.fishandfly.co.uk/jbedit0900.html http://www.amazingoutdoors.com/0,2010,S74-P166-A7436-TA,00.html http://www.masterflyfishing.com/tactics/nymphs/page4.htm http://www.actravel.co.uk/shannon.html http://www.irishfieldsports.com/newpage64.htm You might find these interesting as well; http://www.flymail.com/graphcat/dapping.html TL MC

Response:

Doodling is indeed the word. Large crank baits are used for bass and flies for bream and warmouth. Fish are not lifted from the water but retrieved hand over hand. a cane pole works well. — John Popp in Sanford Fl.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for the name of a form of warm water fly fishing that I saw described in some magazine several years ago.   A short line was tied directly to the tip of a long cane pole which was armed with a popping bug which was then dabbled about on the water around lily pads and brush piles.   I believe that this was used in places where brush prevented traditional fly casting. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Buff This technique is known as "Doodel Socking",  or simply "Doodeling". For more info have a look at http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/oldflies/part11.html TL MC

Response:

After checking one of my old American books, I found another name for the technique you describe.  It is called "Jiggerpoling".  Much the same as "Doodling" but a plug, bacon rind, frog, etc or similar is used.  A search on "jiggerpoling" turned up these; http://www.gcomag.com/052k/jiggerpole.htm http://www.edersfishing.com/fresh/publication/2000/june/Jiggerploes/d…. cfm Very interesting. TL MC

Response:

Question:

Yeah. The best thing to do is ignore ‘em. I sometimes rise to the bait, but I feel chagrined every time I do. Problem is, it stops being a sport when the participants become polarized over anything, whether it’s bamboo or race relations.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <<1. Is there anything we can do about the political/hate messages I see posted here other than ignoring them and hoping they’ll go away? 1. It’s a little like fishing. You don’t have to try to catch everyone you see. You don’t have to keep all you catch. You can just ignore the little guys. <<2. Gehrke has obviously changed his address since I last added him to my kill file. Would someone please send me an email with any aliases he may currently be using so I can prevent his correspondence from reaching me? 2. Now we also have Muskie to deal with.

Response:

Lennie, if you’re at all related to the Richardson Fly Box, you might want to consider moving to another state. Let us know where you’re planning to fish and your general locale–there are for better or worse quite a few other ROFF regulars who live in NC.

I’m not familiar with the Richardson Fly Box, but we could be related. My father’s family is centered in Marion, SC and I’m told I have relatives near Charlotte. I’m a reasonably fair fly dresser, but I can scarcely meet my own demand let alone do it commercially. Besides, I tie flies to catch fish, not to look purty. –Steve (typing this from Cary, NC; headed to Watauga county tomorrow morning) P.S. and no I won’t be doing any fishing this time

Maybe if you don’t get to fish you can get in some skiing.

Response:

Hi All, It’s been a while since I hung out here, like since late June. I have a couple of questions: 1. Is there anything we can do about the political/hate messages I see posted here other than ignoring them and hoping they’ll go away?

Yeah, just post more trips reports like you did for your Montana trip. I enjoyed the pix. Willi

Response:

Lennie, were you speaking of the Upper Creek off of Mt. Mitchell or the Upper Creek off 181 Hwy in Burke County?  I fish the Burke County Upper. Don’t recall the 10" ice.  This is a great stream. — Opie  –Psychotic Psychic to the recently deceased–

Response:

The one in Burke County. It was OK coming in from the Johns River side, but we went out the road that takes you to Wilson Creek and that’s the one that was iced over. It was slick. Drove out in 4 wheel low  the whole way. It was beautiful, but slicker than fresh snot on a doorknob.

Response:

I’m in Charlotte. I was thinking about heading over toward the delayed harvest area of the Tuckaseegee, but I love all the areas you’ve mentioned above. It’s starting to look like the weather could keep us home. I love to fish in the snow and I don’t mind driving in it if I’m the only car on I-40 between Statesville and the Tennessee line. I drove up to Upper Creek January of this year and it was 10" deep in hard ice, not snow. Looked like a mini-glacier. What part of Wilson Creek do you like to fish this time of year? LR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where are you located Lennie?  I’m in Lenoir and plan to fish this weekend on Upper Creek, or Lost Cove, or Wilson Creek or somewhere. — Opie  –Planning for the Past– I live in North Carolina and am going to try to go fishing in the snow this weekend. I’ll post a report when I get back. Merry Christmas and a Happy Chanuka/Ramadan/Kwanzaa/New Year to all, Lennie Richardson (Not "Mr. R.", not ashamed of my name)

Response:

I live in North Carolina and am going to try to go fishing in the snow this weekend. I’ll post a report when I get back.

Lennie, if you’re at all related to the Richardson Fly Box, you might want to consider moving to another state. Let us know where you’re planning to fish and your general locale–there are for better or worse quite a few other ROFF regulars who live in NC. –Steve (typing this from Cary, NC; headed to Watauga county tomorrow morning) P.S. and no I won’t be doing any fishing this time

Response:

<<1. Is there anything we can do about the political/hate messages I see posted here other than ignoring them and hoping they’ll go away? 1. It’s a little like fishing. You don’t have to try to catch everyone you see. You don’t have to keep all you catch. You can just ignore the little guys. <<2. Gehrke has obviously changed his address since I last added him to my kill file. Would someone please send me an email with any aliases he may currently be using so I can prevent his correspondence from reaching me? 2. Now we also have Muskie to deal with.

Response:

Where are you located Lennie?  I’m in Lenoir and plan to fish this weekend on Upper Creek, or Lost Cove, or Wilson Creek or somewhere. — Opie  –Planning for the Past–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I live in North Carolina and am going to try to go fishing in the snow this weekend. I’ll post a report when I get back. Merry Christmas and a Happy Chanuka/Ramadan/Kwanzaa/New Year to all, Lennie Richardson (Not "Mr. R.", not ashamed of my name)

Response:

Hi All, It’s been a while since I hung out here, like since late June. I have a couple of questions: 1. Is there anything we can do about the political/hate messages I see posted here other than ignoring them and hoping they’ll go away? 2. Gehrke has obviously changed his address since I last added him to my kill file. Would someone please send me an email with any aliases he may currently be using so I can prevent his correspondence from reaching me? I use his product and it works just fine for me. As a matter of fact, I’ve got a bottle I bought in 1990 which I’ve only half used up. It’s his biased blather that I don’t care for. I still find many stimulating and useful posts in this group, so I have no plans to give up on it just yet. Thanks to all of you (you know who you are) that make this a worthwhile NG. BTW, I’ve been to Montana since the last time I visited this group, so if anybody would like to see a few pretty fish pictures, please take a look at http://home.carolina.rr.com/ellarrandfamily/photo.htm. I had the good fortune to meet some super fishermen, guides, and flyshop folk while I was there, but I’m not going to turn my post into a commercial for them. I live in North Carolina and am going to try to go fishing in the snow this weekend. I’ll post a report when I get back. Merry Christmas and a Happy Chanuka/Ramadan/Kwanzaa/New Year to all, Lennie Richardson (Not "Mr. R.", not ashamed of my name)

Response:

Question:

There is plenty of ice out there.  Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring.  Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate.  The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions".  The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick.  Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out.  But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.

Some would say that’s overly conservative.  They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it.  And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.

As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.

Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron

No, you don’t.  I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael

Response:

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.

Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??

Something like that.  See, here’s the scenario.  MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000.  Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA.  Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing.  The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering.  So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options?  If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it.  Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing?  That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either.  If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron.  Electrical failure?  Same deal.  Both in one day?  Pretty damn remote.  Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day.  See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form.  If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself.  You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice.  Or you can take your chances.  Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.

Well, how far do your abilities stretch?  This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm.  Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm.  Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble.  The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once.  A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever.

If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice.  But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael

Response:

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.

Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180".  You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet.  I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions.   I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.

Response:

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,

Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

Actual ice is not rare.  You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast.  There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though.  If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it

So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??  I remember my first solo IMC.  I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds.  (not in winter of course)  What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe.  It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise?  They can, you know.  I got caught that way once myself.

I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice.  Precip can.

I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself.  1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron

Response:

I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?

For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read.  It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe

Response:

I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning.  I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.

The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions.  Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly.  My girlfriend wanted to eat.  I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport.  The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation.  When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds.  I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds.  He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur.  The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing.  This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue.  (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine.  The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly.  The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel.  I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using.  That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good.  The trip back started out just fine.  Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it.  Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away.  No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC.  There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield.  I made an immediate turn out of the shower.  I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute.  But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min.  I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice.  Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head.  I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks.  Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!

You’re welcome.  I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge.  The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal.  Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael

Response:

There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms.  Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.  And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds.  I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck.  Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window.  … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

Response:

1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?

There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)

It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.

Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.

Response:

2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area)

Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely.  If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice.  As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts.  Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels.  That’s freezing rain.  In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective.  In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe

Response:

Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur.  However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment.  But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly.   If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over  much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.

In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.

It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen.  Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR.  What it takes is an inversion.  You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice.  Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right?

Wrong.  Very, very wrong.  The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing.  Period.  If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not.  We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s

ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be.  You won’t know until you fly through them.  You certainly won’t know days in advance.  Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited.  Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up.  Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood.  Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive

NO THEY ARE NOT.  Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael

Response:

I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating?  Icing conditions are fairly predictable.  Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy.  Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip.  Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions.  They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw!  It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t.  There’s snow.  There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions.  All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint.  You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not?  If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180

Response:

I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182.  I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be.  With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider!  I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?  Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps?  (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice.  (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff.  … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z.  Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR.  But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)

Response:

Question:

How many of you use a whipped loop on your fly line to which you connect your looped leaders? Seems like this makes a lot of sense … yet the books don’t really discuss it … at least the books I have read … tried it for shooting head system … works well there …. John

Response:

How many of you use a whipped loop on your fly line to which you connect your looped leaders?

<SNIP You are describing the NAIL KNOT!

<SNIP I didn’t think he was describing a nail knot.  I thought he was talking about creating some sort of ‘loop’ in the end of his fly line, not tying a loop onto the end of the line with a nail knot. Could just be my misinterpretation though (certainly wouldn’t be the first time). Dave If we didn’t have some bad days, they would call it ‘catching’, not ‘fishing’.

Response:

You are describing the NAIL KNOT! It has always bothered me that the same knot gets different names depending upon how it is used. Nail knot Whip finish Snell They all are the same knot, even if made differently.

"Whipping" is NOT a nail knot.   It involves using a smaller diameter line or thread to secure a doubled-back portion of the main line. [Large lines (what non-sailors call "ropes") are whipped with heavy twine.]   In the case of whipping a loop in the end of a flyline, it involves stripping off a section of the coating, then folding it back and "whipping" the overlap with rod-wrapping or fly-tying thread. The "whip finish" refers to the way you end "whipping,"   It is not the same as a nail knot, either!   (See page 102, "Practical Fishing Knots II," Sosin and Kreh, 1991, Lyons and Burford, New York, NY) Bob Scott Ex-Navy

Response:

How many of you use a whipped loop on your fly line to which you connect your looped leaders?

Me. Then loop to a surgeons loop in the bimini of 6′ of 20# flourocarbon. It isn’t a nail not, by the way. Capt. Gary S. Colecchio West Palm Beach "Lie ? Me ? Never!  No, no, no, the truth is far too much fun !" – Captain Hook

Response:

To others as well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are describing the NAIL KNOT! It has always bothered me that the same knot gets different names depending upon how it is used. Nail knot Whip finish Snell They all are the same knot, even if made differently. "Whipping" is NOT a nail knot.   It involves using a smaller diameter line or thread to secure a doubled-back portion of the main line. [Large lines (what non-sailors call "ropes") are whipped with heavy twine.]   In the case of whipping a loop in the end of a flyline, it involves stripping off a section of the coating, then folding it back and "whipping" the overlap with rod-wrapping or fly-tying thread. The "whip finish" refers to the way you end "whipping,"   It is not the same as a nail knot, either!   (See page 102, "Practical Fishing Knots II," Sosin and Kreh, 1991, Lyons and Burford, New York, NY)

These do describe the same mathematical topological entity as a nail knot. When you ignore such properties as the size of the various lines or ropes, the fundamental structure of all these knots is the same even though they may superficially look different. Bill

Response:

Hi John, Give it a try and see if it works out for you. I have seen it on many anglers lines that have come though the stores that I have worked. 1) You can turn back the flyline and wip a loop with the core. 2) You can use some dacron line for the lopop too. 3) You can use a factory braided mono loop or make your own braided mono loop. I try to test all the different knots, connections and systems to see how they work. What you or I choose to use ourselves is meaningless as there are so many ways to do all of this. PS: I prefer to ‘needle nail knot’ the mono butt of my leader to the fly line and I do see it is very popular for fresh water fishing in the California.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How many of you use a whipped loop on your fly line to which you connect your looped leaders? Seems like this makes a lot of sense … yet the books don’t really discuss it … at least the books I have read … tried it for shooting head system … works well there …. John

Response:

How many of you use a whipped loop on your fly line to which you connect your looped leaders? Seems like this makes a lot of sense … yet the books don’t really discuss it … at least the books I have read … tried it for shooting head system … works well there …. John

You are describing the NAIL KNOT! It has always bothered me that the same knot gets different names depending upon how it is used. Nail knot Whip finish Snell They all are the same knot, even if made differently. Bill

Response:

Question:

A friend/client, has fished in many parts of the world, without booking through outfitters. Is there any way this can be done in Alaska. He is prepared to hire a guide, at least for a while, possibly the whole trip, and we would appreciate any advice on an alternative to being based at a lodge. Private responses are welcome. Many thanks Del

Response:

A friend/client, has fished in many parts of the world, without booking through outfitters. Is there any way this can be done in Alaska. He is prepared to hire a guide, at least for a while, possibly the whole trip, and we would appreciate any advice on an alternative to being based at a lodge. Private responses are welcome. Many thanks Del

Sure, it’s easy.  Long as you’re not scared of bears and are comfortable with backwoods camping and rafting.  Lot’s of people arrange their own float trips, and there is a thriving business in Alaska around doing that.  You have to be an independent sort, but it is NOT hard.   Try contacting Alaska Bush Carriers in Anchorage, or Fresh Water Adventures in Dillingham.  ABC flies to the Talachulitna, Mulchatna, Chilikadrotna, Deshka, and Lake Creek.  FWA does the Togiak, Goodnews, Kanektok, and others.  Both can help you with rafts, or you can get rafts from Wild Alaska Rivers in Anchorage, and air frieght them to point of need. You can do the Tal for about $500/man, and the Goodnews for about $800/man, not counting airfare.  ABC can rent you a tent and camping gear package as well as the rafts.   Camp Bendeleben, out of Nome, is an interesting trek outside of rainbow trout country, and is on the edge of the known planet.  GREAT silver salmon and char fishing in late august.   I’ve used both of these outfits, and like them.  Using a different outfit to go to the Alagnak this summer, will see how they do.   I recommend that you get the book, ALaska Fly Fishing, by Tony Route, to get you grounded in what kind of tackle you need.  All the gear you need can be gotten in Anchorage if you have a couple of hours between flights.  Try Mountain View Sports, or McAfee’s Fly Shop. Feel free to write if this isn’t enough to get you going.   — Andrew Brunette

Response:

Have you considered Arctic char fishing in Canada’s High Arctic?  The Cdn $ (the loonie) is way down so prices are currently a bargin in US $. There are three options out of Pond Inlet on northern Baffin Island:  1. An Inuit guide/outfitter can drop you off at a fishing spot for a few days and pick you up later.  2. The guide can stay with you and you can try different fishing spots, and enjoy the specatular scenery, mountains, fiords, glaciers, caribou, whales, etc.  3. Or try the lodge in Kuluktoo Bay (most expensive). Up to 6 fishers can share a boat so a small group is most economical. Tununiq Travel and Adventure can put it together for you.  As a tour operator, they can access the lowest published airfares for you out of Montreal or Ottawa. Pond Inlet is well north of the Arctic Circle so you have lots of day light to work with in August.  The ice usually goes out in late July/early August, and after that you can travel by boat. The char are along the shores of the fiords and near the mouths of river until late August. Last year some lucky fishers were throwing back the 15 lbers and keeping the 19 lbers. For more information visit the web site:  www.tununiq.com General descriptions of Fishing adventures are on the Tununiq Adventures page, but check out the other pages for background information (e.g., the Wildlife and Climate pages via the Our Natural World page). Is you want some booking information send and email to Mike Ferguson – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend/client, has fished in many parts of the world, without booking through outfitters. Is there any way this can be done in Alaska. He is prepared to hire a guide, at least for a while, possibly the whole trip, and we would appreciate any advice on an alternative to being based at a lodge. Private responses are welcome. Many thanks Del Sure, it’s easy.  Long as you’re not scared of bears and are comfortable with backwoods camping and rafting.  Lot’s of people arrange their own float trips, and there is a thriving business in Alaska around doing that.  You have to be an independent sort, but it is NOT hard. Try contacting Alaska Bush Carriers in Anchorage, or Fresh Water Adventures in Dillingham.  ABC flies to the Talachulitna, Mulchatna, Chilikadrotna, Deshka, and Lake Creek.  FWA does the Togiak, Goodnews, Kanektok, and others.  Both can help you with rafts, or you can get rafts from Wild Alaska Rivers in Anchorage, and air frieght them to point of need. You can do the Tal for about $500/man, and the Goodnews for about $800/man, not counting airfare.  ABC can rent you a tent and camping gear package as well as the rafts. Camp Bendeleben, out of Nome, is an interesting trek outside of rainbow trout country, and is on the edge of the known planet.  GREAT silver salmon and char fishing in late august. I’ve used both of these outfits, and like them.  Using a different outfit to go to the Alagnak this summer, will see how they do. I recommend that you get the book, ALaska Fly Fishing, by Tony Route, to get you grounded in what kind of tackle you need.  All the gear you need can be gotten in Anchorage if you have a couple of hours between flights.  Try Mountain View Sports, or McAfee’s Fly Shop. Feel free to write if this isn’t enough to get you going. — Andrew Brunette

Response:

Question:

If you have fished Lee Vining, then tell me about it. I plan on fishing it a couple days 1st week June. steve k — stev_ix_netcom_com

Response:

If you have fished Lee Vining, then tell me about it. I plan on fishing it a couple days 1st week June. steve k — stev_ix_netcom_com

I haven’t fished it for a while but it used to be good. There is a nice Forestry camp ground after you turn off of 395 toward Yosemite, about a half mile up make a left, it is a good starting point for fishing all of the local streams. If you are going all the way to Lee Vining you mine as well go up toward the Walker River and fish some of the tributary streams like the South Fork of the West Walker past Bridgeport. It is full of hungry Brook Trout. Stay away from the main rivers they are full of ya hoo’s and planted bland tasting bow’s. I fished the Lower Owens last month below Bishop and knocked the Brown Trout dead (not dead I let them go) laregest was 4 pounds, not bad for a heavily fished area. The good fish in Lee Vining used to hang in the bends under the bank, fish them slow. I don’t know if you fly fish or not but stop in a "local" supplt store and check their chalk board for stream updates and fly preference or use a very small worm with a small split shot. Big Wave Dave

Response:

Question:

I want to get a book that contains fly fishing knots for both fresh and salt water use. I know that lefty kreh and mark sosin have a book out called practical fishing knots and practical fishing knots II. What is the difference between these books. which one is better for fly fishing knots? any response would be appreciated.                                 Dave

Response:

Practical Fishing Knots II is the 2nd edition of Practical Fishing Knots. It’s an excellent book. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to get a book that contains fly fishing knots for both fresh and salt water use. I know that lefty kreh and mark sosin have a book out called practical fishing knots and practical fishing knots II. What is the difference between these books. which one is better for fly fishing knots? any response would be appreciated. Dave

Response:

No offense to Lefty and Mark, they are tops. However, their books on knots, while best sellers are sort of twisted. Just try tying a Bimini twist for the first time with one knee as stated in their instructions. You can get better basic info for the majority of knots for free by writing Ande Monofilament, 1310 53rd St. West Palm Beach, FL 33407…. Much better instructions. Bob Elliott, Rochester, NY (no connection to Ande) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to get a book that contains fly fishing knots for both fresh and salt water use. I know that lefty kreh and mark sosin have a book out called practical fishing knots and practical fishing knots II. What is the difference between these books. which one is better for fly fishing knots? any response would be appreciated.                                 Dave

Response:

 Knots on the Web (Peter Suber) is a great site with eveything you could ever want to know about all kinds of knots.  It’s one of those pages that makes you say "WOW, I had no idea THIS many people were fascinated by KNOTS!"   From there, you can find specific pages that meet your needs and interests.  Try using your browser to search the page for the word "fish" if you don’t feel like scan the page manually for fishing-related knot pages.  There are several that are fly fishing-specific. In case your news reader doesn’t support html, the URL is: http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/knotlink.htm Hope it helps, Joe Bollinger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I want to get a book that contains fly fishing knots for both fresh and salt water use. I know that lefty kreh and mark sosin have a book out called practical fishing knots and practical fishing knots II. What is the difference between these books. which one is better for fly fishing knots? any response would be appreciated.                                 Dave

Response:

Question:

Where, *exactly*, should I add split-shot on a WF-5-F line, or leader.

Response:

I like to put it right next to the fly so that it looks like a head. I, of course, have no idea if that is correct or not.

Response:

Where, *exactly*, should I add split-shot on a WF-5-F line, or leader.

The closer to the fly usually causes less tangling problems. Another method I use is to add a short section of lead core line between my leader butt section and the tipppet section. Some people find that easier to cast. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

: I like to put it right next to the fly so that it looks like a head. I, of : course, have no idea if that is correct or not. If it catches fish, it _is_ correct! ;-   Anywhere from about 18 inches up on the tippet to down close to the fly will do the trick. Another suggestion would be to use a section of lead core line. What you do is form a loop in each end and overwrap it with thread. Use a loop to loop connection to attach it to the flyline or the tippet end of the leader. There are premade ones out there also. The advantage to this is that it removes that "clunkiness" from the casting that is associated with the use split shot. Jon Porter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Where, *exactly*, should I add split-shot on a WF-5-F line, or leader. The closer to the fly usually causes less tangling problems. Another method I use is to add a short section of lead core line between my leader butt section and the tipppet section. Some people find that easier to cast. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Too close to the fly can ruin the swimming action.  Leave at least a couple of feet for most flies. — Richard Nelson Spokane, Wa. "Its not that life is so short, its that death is sooo long."