Question:

    i think the problem lies with bad leader material.  leaders "age", and become absurdly brittle and weak, even in packaging.  the damn stuff has probably been on the shelf at wallyworld for five or six years.  go to a decent specialty shop and get new leader material.     otherwise, i think it’s your knots.  i have desperately tried to snap flies off on the back cast, and i just can’t do it.  hell, maybe you just have a special talent…

Excuse me, may I help you?  Oh, I see.  Well, you turned left into "Leader Minutia" by mistake.  Go back down the hallway you came up, make a left by the drinking fountain, head for the sign that says "Actually Fishing Outdoors", and then past the restrooms, and right into "Turning A Nice Phrase".  Don’t mention it, have a nice day.

Response:

 Check your leader often, especially if you see a messy cast.

hmmm….this will be bad news for anyone fishing with me… you boys’ll be doin a whole lot of leader checks… jeff (purely messy)

Response:

…from my experience, cloning ain’t required…damned things are everywhere already…and around water? well, you probably haven’t seen the movie and don’t know the reproductive methods of gremlins, but…let’s just say it doesn’t look good for fisherpeople… jeff (creator of "the gremlin defense" – royalties required, unauthorized use or duplication will be punishable by law, bycracky) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – … gremlins…….caught a glimpse of one once…looked sorta like a tiny waldo-wolfgang thing….. Nasty little buggers from all I’ve heard. Wolfgang and the BAD news is we got the technology to clone!      

Response:

It might be that the back cast is low enough to actually hit the water or the ground, then there’s no need for special talents to break off the fly. Most of the guys that I’ve helped with their casting technique had one common problem, their back cast was way too low. But for this problem to appear again and again, I would also guess that the leader is the problem. /Roger

I agree with both points. I have occasionally broken the hook off the fly by letting it hit the rocks behind me. What really makes that a great trick is to continue fishing with the hookless fly. Makes it a bit more of a sporting challenge! Bob — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

Response:

By the way, I live in McKinney about 30 miles or so north of Dallas. Thanks again, Nick Wright

Dale gave you an excellent tip re: the FWFF event in September, and what sounded suspiciously like an invite to Backwoods for the Roadkill Roundup.  You could gain quite a bit by attending either, and moreso by attending both.  If you’d like, drop me an email, and I’ll try to provide as much "local" info as I can. TC, R

Response:

Check your leader often, especially if you see a messy cast. Remove the overhand knots before they tighten.  Don’t delay cutting knots out of the leader and rebuilding it.

Great advice! I saved a lot of time and frustration once I started noticing my messy casts right away and dealing with it before it became an unmanageable mess.  You can untangle things (usually) fairly easily if you stop casting right away. A guide told me the minute rule (ok, maybe 30 seconds)…if you can’t fix it in under (a minute), then cut and redo… you’ll save time, be happier and get your fly on the water… which is the only way you can catch fish. — Rob (of course, fixing messy casting is another problem alltogether…)

Response:

Nick,     Ssounds to me like the whole outfit has been sitting around for a long time…I don’t know why floating line would sink rapidly unless it was old…..Also, there are several sites you can visit to learn to tie different types of knots, buy books, post messages, buy equipment, etc. http://www.flyanglersonline.com/   they have a beginners’ section http://www.thejump.net/fishing/fishing.html  fishin’ knots & other things And here are some links that may be helpful: http://flyfishing.miningco.com/ http://www.njflyfishing.com/ http://www.roundrocks.com/rocks/html/misc.html I’m sure all the others here can also help you a lot…keep at it, ask a lot of questions & PRACTICE!!! Graden

Response:

… gremlins…….caught a glimpse of one once…looked sorta like a tiny waldo-wolfgang thing…..

Nasty little buggers from all I’ve heard. Wolfgang and the BAD news is we got the technology to clone!      

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Could it be that you’re snapping the fly off on the backcast? If you put too much energy into it you can crack the line like a whip, and the fly goes hell knows where. Bob Just what I was thinking.  Put a little mark with a marker on the knot and tippet just above the fly to determine if this is happening if you can’t easily tell.  Does it appear, by looking at the tippet end, if the knot is untying, or is the end, once the fly is gone, a "clean" end? Where in N. Texas are you located?  If you’re near the DFW area, there are a number of instructors (Main Street Outfitters, in FW, for one), and a couple of FFing clubs that might provide some help.  IMO, instruction, particularly professional instruction, will provide dividends beyond the cost incurred (see a recent related thread on this very topic).  If you are comfortable with doing so, reply with a general location – there are several regulars in the general Fort Worth-Dallas <G area. TC, R

Thanks for all the advice. Thinking back on it, this may very well be what I was doing. I had not thought about it before. But that would explain why the leader looked as though it had been cut rather than the knot simply coming undone. I’m going to get all new line for my rod. The "floating fly line" that came with it sinks very rapidly, and it did not come with backing. So I’ll buy some new lines and leaders (hopefully this will help a little) and I’ll continue practicing my casting. Another question semi-related. I’m going to buy the leaders that come tapered instead of tying my own, in this case how necessary is it to have a tippet? By the way, I live in McKinney about 30 miles or so north of Dallas. Thanks again, Nick Wright

Response:

Another question semi-related. I’m going to buy the leaders that come tapered instead of tying my own, in this case how necessary is it to have a tippet?

Knotless tapered leaders are good, but you will definitely need to get some tippet.  Every time you tie on a fly you’re going to lose some material and by tying on some tippet you can delay replacing the leader.  I remember when I was starting out – I ended up changing leaders quite often until I solved my tailing loops (if you see lots of overhand knots all through your leader you are throwing a tailing loop) in which case adding tippet is not as big an issue<g.  Check your leader often, especially if you see a messy cast. Remove the overhand knots before they tighten.  Don’t delay cutting knots out of the leader and rebuilding it. What length and weight leader/tippet to use is an important question.  For most of the fishing I do (panfish, small bass, small trout) I get by with a 7 foot 4x tapered leader with 4x and/or 5x tippet added on.  I carry spools or 4x through 7x tippet for modifying the end of the leader as needed. –Stan

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As a newbie of one year My most difficult time learning  was trying to forget I didn’t have a spinning rod with weights Easy does it grasshopper. Let the rod and line do the work — Fly Fisherman With a Furless Naked Cat named Dub.

Response:

that come tapered instead of tying my own, in this case how necessary is it to have a tippet? By the way, I live in McKinney about 30 miles or so north of Dallas.

I live in Plano. You need to buy a spool of tippet material. When fishing for bluegill around here I simply buy a 7.5 foot tapered 3x leader and immediately tie on a couple of feet of 4x tippet material. The waters we fish have so much stuff growing in the water that you gather a bowl of salad on each knott on a regular basis. By the time you leave a couple of flies in trees and snap a couple of flies off on the casts and change flies a couple of times you will need to replace the tippet with another couple of feet of tippet. It is no problem as a roll of tippet material lasts for a couple of years anyway and it is a good idea to replace it every couple of years anyway. BTW the Roadkill Roundtable meets each Saturday morning to tie flies and tell lies at Backwoods in the southeast corner of Campbell and Coit in Richardson. Come join us for a bs session anytime you want.We are a kind of a splinter group of The Dallas Flyfisher Club and the guys that work at the shop are always available to answer any questions. Ron manages the shop and Marshal works there and they are very knowledgable. Big Dale

Response:

nick – you’ve gotten plenty of good opinions, but you’ll soon discover the truth… gremlins.  damn things been plaguing all aspects of my flyfishing.  caught a glimpse of one once…looked sorta like a tiny waldo-wolfgang thing. they can tie knots in the tippet, snag flies in trees, pull rod tips into closing doors or ceiling fans, push you down into the water in front of your fishing companions just as you’re stepping into a stream…oh the horrors you’re in for now!!  you’ll love every moment – well, most of em. (my opinion… big fly, light or bad tippet, too powerful snapping and too soon on the forward casting stroke.) jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart since I’ve been wanting to try flyfishing. I’ve just about got the knack of fly casting (at least short distances), by practicing in my yard with a small piece of cloth tied on. My question is this, I took it out to the water tonight to give it a "real world" go and I ran into a problem. The flies would not stay tied to the leader. I tried the improved clinch and also the double clinch and without fail after about 5-6 casts the fly would be gone. I know that I’m tying these knots correctly. So I’m wondering where the problem can be? The little piece of cloth I’ve used for practice never once came off. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice. Nick Wright

Response:

Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart since I’ve been wanting to try flyfishing. I’ve just about got the knack of fly casting (at least short distances), by practicing in my yard with a small piece of cloth tied on. My question is this, I took it out to the water tonight to give it a "real world" go and I ran into a problem. The flies would not stay tied to the leader. I tried the improved clinch and also the double clinch and without fail after about 5-6 casts the fly would be gone. I know that I’m tying these knots correctly. So I’m wondering where the problem can be? The little piece of cloth I’ve used for practice never once came off. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice. Nick Wright

Response:

Could it be that you’re snapping the fly off on the backcast? If you put too much energy into it you can crack the line like a whip, and the fly goes hell knows where. Bob — http://rwpatton.home.netcom.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart since I’ve been wanting to try flyfishing. I’ve just about got the knack of fly casting (at least short distances), by practicing in my yard with a small piece of cloth tied on. My question is this, I took it out to the water tonight to give it a "real world" go and I ran into a problem. The flies would not stay tied to the leader. I tried the improved clinch and also the double clinch and without fail after about 5-6 casts the fly would be gone. I know that I’m tying these knots correctly. So I’m wondering where the problem can be? The little piece of cloth I’ve used for practice never once came off. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice. Nick Wright

Response:

Could it be that you’re snapping the fly off on the backcast? If you put too much energy into it you can crack the line like a whip, and the fly goes hell knows where. Bob

Just what I was thinking.  Put a little mark with a marker on the knot and tippet just above the fly to determine if this is happening if you can’t easily tell.  Does it appear, by looking at the tippet end, if the knot is untying, or is the end, once the fly is gone, a "clean" end? Where in N. Texas are you located?  If you’re near the DFW area, there are a number of instructors (Main Street Outfitters, in FW, for one), and a couple of FFing clubs that might provide some help.  IMO, instruction, particularly professional instruction, will provide dividends beyond the cost incurred (see a recent related thread on this very topic).  If you are comfortable with doing so, reply with a general location – there are several regulars in the general Fort Worth-Dallas <G area. TC, R

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart since I’ve been wanting to try flyfishing. I’ve just about got the knack of fly casting (at least short distances), by practicing in my yard with a small piece of cloth tied on. My question is this, I took it out to the water tonight to give it a "real world" go and I ran into a problem. The flies would not stay tied to the leader. I tried the improved clinch and also the double clinch and without fail after about 5-6 casts the fly would be gone. I know that I’m tying these knots correctly. So I’m wondering where the problem can be? The little piece of cloth I’ve used for practice never once came off. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice. Nick Wright

Most likely you are snapping them off.  Untutored beginners frequently show a natural tendency to crack a fly line like a whip.  The correction is a matter of timing.  You are probably starting the forward cast too early and overpowering it, causing the fly to accelerate to supersonic speed in a small fraction of a second….more stress than the tippet can handle.  It didn’t happen with the piece of cloth because it’s greater air resistance simply wouldn’t allow that kind of acceleration.  Watch you back cast.  Don’t start the forward motion until the line extends completely to the rear. If possible, get an experienced caster to coach you.  If not, take lessons or rent videos and practice, practice, practice. Wolfgang

Response:

"Wolfgang Siebeneich" Most likely you are snapping them off.  Untutored beginners frequently show a natural tendency to crack a fly line like a whip.  The correction is a matter of timing.  You are probably starting the forward cast too early and overpowering it, causing the fly to accelerate to supersonic speed in a small fraction of a second….more stress than the tippet can handle.  It didn’t happen with the piece of cloth because it’s greater air resistance simply wouldn’t allow that kind of acceleration.  Watch you back cast.  Don’t start the forward motion until the line extends completely to the rear. If possible, get an experienced caster to coach you.  If not, take lessons or rent videos and practice, practice, practice.

I had virtually the same thing written out to send and then thought I’d check and see if it was already in the thread. What he said! Clark

Response:

Could it be that you’re snapping the fly off on the backcast? If you put too much energy into it you can crack the line like a whip, and the fly goes hell knows where. Bob

Good advice. Is it possible that the leader that came with the kit is either just really bad or possibly really old? Will getting a new leader solve my problem? Or are clinch knots not the proper way to tie on? Thanks for any advice.

The leader could weak. If in doubt, you don’t have to buy a new leader. Buy a spool of 5x tippet and learn to tie about a 18" to 24" piece onto the leader with a double surgeon’s knot. You should be doing that anyway. Cut the leader back to a thicker diameter first. It wouldn’t hurt to replace the whole leader, though. Did you say you paid $20 for this outfit? A decent store-bought leader will cost a quarter of that, but you can tie up your own, after spending more than $20 on materials. Then you can look into buying fly-tying materials, and then you can build your own rods. Eventually, you might build a drift boat and even knit your own waders. The possibilities are endless.

Response:

Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart

    i think the problem lies with bad leader material.  leaders "age", and become absurdly brittle and weak, even in packaging.  the damn stuff has probably been on the shelf at wallyworld for five or six years.  go to a decent specialty shop and get new leader material.     otherwise, i think it’s your knots.  i have desperately tried to snap flies off on the back cast, and i just can’t do it.  hell, maybe you just have a special talent… wayno

Response:

I’ve seen a lot of people do it Wayne. But I agree, the leader is probably shot which exasperates the problem. Clark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart     i think the problem lies with bad leader material.  leaders "age", and become absurdly brittle and weak, even in packaging.  the damn stuff has probably been on the shelf at wallyworld for five or six years.  go to a decent specialty shop and get new leader material.     otherwise, i think it’s your knots.  i have desperately tried to snap flies off on the back cast, and i just can’t do it.  hell, maybe you just have a special talent… wayno

Response:

It might be that the back cast is low enough to actually hit the water or the ground, then there’s no need for special talents to break off the fly. Most of the guys that I’ve helped with their casting technique had one common problem, their back cast was way too low. But for this problem to appear again and again, I would also guess that the leader is the problem. /Roger

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, my name is Nick I live in North Texas. My wife recently bought me the little $20 kit from WalMart     i think the problem lies with bad leader material.  leaders "age", and become absurdly brittle and weak, even in packaging.  the damn stuff has probably been on the shelf at wallyworld for five or six years.  go to a decent specialty shop and get new leader material.     otherwise, i think it’s your knots.  i have desperately tried to snap flies off on the back cast, and i just can’t do it.  hell, maybe you just have a special talent… wayno

Response:

I don’t know where you live in North Texas, but you might want to check out an event that the Fort Worth FlyFishers Club is involved with that will happen on Sept 21. It is called the Trinity FlyFest and it will include casting lessons. For more information go to WWW. FortWorth FlyFishers.com. The Dallas club does not have an event scheuled in the near future which includes fly casting lessons because our next event is our annual club auction on Sept.21. You might just t ask at the Dallas Orvis Store. There is usualy someone there that will give any customer some casting tips and demonstration  in their parking lot. It is a lot easier to work these kind of problems in person rather than on the net. Contact me if I can be any help. Big Dale  

Response:

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

O.K., I see where the problem lies.  Since the discussion was about salmon born in the river it never occured to me that the browns in question were sea run.  I assumed we were talking about stream resident browns and that the salmon had coloring that matched theirs.  We have browns here that live in Lake Michigan and head up the streams only to spawn.  Having seen a few of these, I understand how one could have trouble distinguishing between them, when fresh from the lake, and salmon.  As a matter of fact, limited as my experience with them is, I’m sure I couldn’t tell them apart. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky

Rather an apt name considering the focus of this discussion.  The Root is probably the most popular stream in the state for salmon fishing.  As far as I know it also the most productive…..for reasons that are a complete mystery to me.  It is nasty, as is also true of all the streams in the extreme southern Lake Michigan watershed.  Doubtless, they all ran clear 200 years ago when the native prairie plants stabilized the rich silty soil, but all that ended the day the first sodbuster arrived.  Some progress has been made in cleaning them up in the last decade or two but MUCH more needs to be done and it will never happen, land use patterns being what they are here. Some, like the Milwaukee, the Menomonee, and a few of the smaller streams will run fairly clear during extreme low water conditions but they are typically opaque.  Agricultural and urban runoff, industrial pollutants, and sewage combined with an unknowable quantity of point source pollution conspire to make eating anything caught from these waters border on suicidal and yet thousands of people do.  What’s even more perplexing is that there actually IS something to be caught and eaten. Wolfgang

Response:

I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

This has been an interesting discussion for me; and since I was the one who apparently misidentified the fish, even all the more so.   By now, a week later, I’m no longer sure.   It’s my recollection that the fish I caught had the brownish coloring with the distinctive spots of a brown.   Not knowing there were no browns in the river, I had no doubt at the time that is was indeed a brown trout.   Do these small landlocks also have the spots of a brown, or is my memory going to hell? (knowing full well these are mutually exclusive positions.) Joe F.

Response:

I fished the EO last fall and caught a landlocked that very much resembled a brown in coloration. The guide explained that as the fish adapt to the river, their color changes (I guess like the so called "Black" Atlantics). I fished again this June, and all the landlocks were bright silver. HTH In all knowledge, consider the source. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid. Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace. Dave

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 or Gink- reaching Waldo

scott, you misspelt "gink-retching waldo." i’m a loon man…. a happy loonie. –waldo

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Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR. George Adams "From the rockin’ of the cradle to the rollin’ of the hearse, the goin’ up was worth the comin’ down." ___Kris Kristofferson "The Pilgrim/Chapter 33"

Response:

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail?

Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns and they taste muddy. He called them "dirty" salmon. Flyfish

Response:

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns

But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? and they taste muddy.

Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes. He called them "dirty" salmon.

He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :) Wolfgang

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Fishing for landlocks in the north woods may not seem like paradise to some folks, but it’s close enough for me. Nice TR.

Reminds me.  I have a reference which says that Gull Lake in southwestern Michigan (no secrets here…common knowledge) has landlock salmon in it.  Anybody here ever fished it? Wolfgang

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At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW?

Goddamn RW

Response:

Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake?

Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns. and they taste muddy. Bearing in mind that the vocabulary of taste is woefully inadequate (and often misleading), I’d say that muddy is a term that applies to all the salmonids to one degree or another.  Don’t get me wrong, I like them myself and am particularly fond of both Atlantic and King (or Chinook) salmon, but they do have a flavor component that is definitely earthy compared to many other, and especially white fleshed, fishes.

I once whacked and ate a very nice brookie from the outlet and it certainly seemed ‘muddy’ to me. My biased taste runs to brookies, to me nothing is finer as far as trout go. I dislike landlocks, browns and haven’t had a truely wild or acclimatized rainbow, only the pellet fed stockies that I fished 18 years ago in NH. I much prefer haddock, flounder and swordfish to any trout/salmon, perhaps that’s one of the reasons why I hardly ever keep a fish. I do recall having some smoked salmon in Ireland that was exceptional though. He called them "dirty" salmon. He needs to try a salmon out of the Root river in Racine, WI some time.      :)

This made me chuckle. The Root river? Sounds mucky Wolfgang

Flyfish

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Back when I worked for the fly shop, the guy that owned, John McLeod told me the same thing, the salmon that are born in/stay in the river have two traits, they tend to be darker and sometimes look like browns But enough like them for anyone very familiar with either to make a mistake? Well I wouldn’t put myself forth as an expert but I am very familiar with both browns and landlocked salmon, in a couple of cases I’ve had trouble telling very bright browns from landlocks. In waters that sport both atlantics and sea run browns, it can be so difficult to tell them apart that you need to check the volverine (sp?) teeth to be certain, but that’s really the opposite problem, the browns are bright like a salmon, rather than the salmon being dark like a brown. I’ve seen some of the Outlet’s ‘dark’ salmon and they do look a bit like browns, they’ve even got a slight yellowish tint, which is what I think makes most people mistake them for browns.

Caught a few of them on the Rapid – very brown-like but the shape was wrong – Dave explained the difference.  Funny thing, you can catch them in the same water, surrounded by regular landlocks.   Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://home.cogeco.ca/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Back when I worked for the fly shop,

Did you work at MGFS in Greenville?  Damn fine looking lady in there the days I went in.   SWMBO noticed also. Joe F.

Response:

Enough! Enough! Black Flies be Damned! I want – NEED- to go back! Great TR. By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading. Jim Ray

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described. Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream. I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern. The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

At one of the claves LaPlac gave away a whole set of them in various stages. It was pretty cool (I just saw it, I didn’t win it). — Charlie…

Response:

Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.

I was going to tie some 18’s but didn’t have the hooks when I sat down at the vise.   For 14’s, I used the larva lace you sent me a while back, but for the 16’s, the larva lace seemed too bulky & I used V-rib.   Never got around to the dubbing versions (couldn’t find the right color in the box, then dinner was ready, etc.) Joe F.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.

This is intriguing.  Salmon bred in the river look enough like browns to fool experienced fishers and one can tell the difference only by shape and or size of head and tail? There are numerous references….McClane’s "Encyclopedia" comes readily to mind….which detail the differences among various strains of a given species taken from waters where they have long been established.  From what I’ve seen of such illustrations it seems that some of the differences among and between such strains can be greater than what you’ve described above. Makes me wonder just how closely related the land locked salmon and the brown trout are.  Is this a missed opportunity for the lumpers and splitters to thump on one another? Wolfgang

Response:

OK, got it. I think that’s a free-swimming caddis larva pattern.

BTW, while doing some nymph collecting a week or so ago I found green free-swimming caddis larva in my homewater. I had no idea they were there — I’d just assumed that all the caddis larva were of the cased variety, which are numerous. I’m going to have to try some GRWs. I’ve noticed that some fish I keep have stomachs full of what I can only describe as "green goo." I wonder if it’s GRWs? — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

I am often frustrated by my shortage of fishing time; and when an opportunity arises, the stress of impatience can take a lot of fun out of the trip.  So sitting about the cabin in the morning, I planned to take it as leisurely as possible.   The fish would be there when I got there or they wouldn’t; and my determined sloth got me to the river by 2:30 in the afternoon.  Happy kids, happy wife, relaxed daddy. I was heading down to the East Outlet, where the Kennebec is born from the waters of Moosehead Lake.  The river plunges through the dam and immediately becomes a beautiful river, flowing under a steel truss RR bridge, then highway 15, before continuing south through Skowhegan to the ocean.   A dam or two slow the river farther south, and smallies abound, but here below the East Outlet, it flows free through the beautiful, North Woods region and offers big brookies and landlocked salmon. Three other guys were standing around in the parking lot when I arrived, and in a short chat, I found that one of them was a guide, though I’m not sure if the other two were sports.   The guide took them up on the bridge to point out good runs to fish while I rigged up the nice 4 wt. I got from some guy in Germany <g.   The two sports went on upstream, and the guide came back & chatted some more, offering a tip or two on where I should go between the road & the dam.   It’s a big enough river, but I wasn’t keen on sharing the tourist pools with two other fishermen; and thanking him, I headed downriver through the forest. Over dinner in Foxboro a few nights earlier, Dave had shared the location of a deep run a ways downstream; and I managed to see my way through the black flies & mosquitoes to find my way down to the landmark he described.   Nice spot.   I’ll fish here.  (In truth, I’d have fished almost anywhere to get out of the woods by then.) Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.   Instead of working on my swap flies, I tied up a dozen or so the day before, and I was ready.   The water level was down from the previous day, but still fast & deep, and a split shot was needed to get the fly to the bottom.   Starting at the tail end of the run, I drifted deep, covering the run, but nary a strike.   Finally snagged & lost the fly, a good time to re-evaluate what you have on.   I knew the GRW was a good fly, so I dropped down a size on both the fly (#16) & tippet (6x) and went back at it, moving upstream a bit. It didn’t take long before I hooked up to a small fish, which to my surprise turned out to be about an 8" brown.  I didn’t know there were browns up that far.   Moving up the run a bit, I was casting into a slick behind a large rock and was soon fast to a definitely larger fish.   15" of silver leapt in front of me, ran briefly out into the river, then allowed himself to be reeled in.  It was seemingly too easy when he took off again downstream.   I had a lot of slack water downstream, so, chasing him wasn’t a concern.  The thought of him coming off never occurred to me until he did a quick rolling jump and was gone in an instant.  Okay, that was fun. Moving up & out, I set the hook on another nice fish, who showed me his dark back as he leapt vertically to spit me out almost as fast as I hooked him. Hard to say, but probably in the 16" range again.   Short but sweet. Managed to hold onto a 12" landlock long enough to actually land one; and by 5:00, I headed back to the cabin for dinner.   I’m taking it easy; tomorrow is another day in paradise.

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

Green rock worm? — Charlie…

Response:

Great report, Joe.  One thing, however:  the brown trout was actually a land locked salmon that was born in the river.  My first trip up there I caught a couple of these strange looking fish – they looked like browns, but had salmon tails and heads.  I asked a passing guide about it and he told me they were salmon born in the river instead of in the lake.  Later, at a fly show in Wilmington, I asked a Maine Game Warden about the same thing.  He gave me the same info as the guide.  As the fish gets bigger, it loses this trait and becomes more like the rest of the landlocks.  The tail is the big give away – it is slender and more forked than a brown’s. There has been controversy on the Rapid about browns.  Some folks say they are in the river, but it is the same fish that I caught at East Outlet.  No browns in the Rapid.   Glad the GRW worked.  It worked on the Rapid also, but in size 18 and with dubbing instead of larva lace.   Dave

Response:

By the way, what was the flow rate? There in early june it went from 2900 cfs (almost unfishable) to 1200 cfs by the time we left 4 days later. 1200 is much better for wading.

I confess I don’t have the numbers.  The guide with whom I chatted mentioned them, but I don’t remember.   I believe it had been over 2,000 the previous day, but was well under that the days I fished there.   All I can say is that the river was very wadeable, and I was able to reach spots in the center that would probably be suicidal at higher flows. Joe F.

Response:

Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW. At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

My guess is green rock worm, but it might be great rice wine, or Gink- reaching Waldo Scott

Response:

Reports from every source had said caddis were the bug du jour.   I scanned the air & water, but saw none, so I went straight for the GRW.  

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

At the risk of revealing my appalling ignorance, what’s a GRW? I suppose it’s a gold-ribbed something or other.

I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you. <g See Louie’s submission for the 2000 ROFF fly swap. http://www.paul.goodwinweb.com/flyswap2000/grw.jpg Joe F.

Response:

Question:

In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father.

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it.

What about the Hobbesian fishermen?  Now, wait, before anyone pooh-poohs this out of hand, hear me out…"This one’s tricky. You have to use imaginary numbers, like eleventeen…" <  G R "…If something is so complicated that you can’t explain it in 10 seconds, then it’s probably not worth knowing anyway…"

Response:

says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it.

I don’t really want to go here, BUT, you have it exactly opposite. Catholics, in particular, REQUIRE you to actively participate in sacraments in order to obtain "grace".  I’m not sure about Lutherans. See: http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/beck_5pt.htm specifically points 2 and 4. Rob

Response:

I don’t really want to go here, BUT, you have it exactly opposite.

Doesn’t matter. It’s all baloney. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

Response:

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith.

Actually, the deeds are supposed to be one of the manifestations of faith. A high "value" is placed on deeds in Calvinist doctrine but deeds are not required for the attainment of salvation.  The part that rankles about the quote is that grace refers to a gift that is freely given.  Not something that can come by art, whatever art is. Mu

Response:

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith.

As I understand it, Calvin taught that one’s eternal fate was determined BEFORE his birth.  The "Elect" had been chosen by God to spend eternity with Him in heaven.  The rest would perish. No one could change is fate in any way. vince norris

Response:

Rob, It is Grace alone for Lutherans. Crusty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it. I don’t really want to go here, BUT, you have it exactly opposite. Catholics, in particular, REQUIRE you to actively participate in sacraments in order to obtain "grace".  I’m not sure about Lutherans. See: http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/beck_5pt.htm specifically points 2 and 4. Rob

Response:

In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father.

Before I read farther about the father, what do you think the quote should have been? This, I find interesting Mu.  What is ‘the why of it?’ George Gehrke

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In A River Runs Through It, Norm Maclean writes: * all good things – trout as well as eternal salvation – come by grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy * I hate that quote. That quote always makes me cringe.  Either Maclean’s dad was not well versed in Calvinist theology or Maclean is misquoting his father. On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. That strikes me as a theology tailor made for fishermen. Catholic and Lutheran fishermen think faith will see them through the day. Calvinist fishermen know they have to work at it.

—  Hum? gg

Response:

On the contrary, Calvinist theology holds that salvation is attained by deeds as well as faith. Actually, the deeds are supposed to be one of the manifestations of faith. A high "value" is placed on deeds in Calvinist doctrine but deeds are not required for the attainment of salvation.  The part that rankles about the quote is that grace refers to a gift that is freely given.  Not something that can come by art, whatever art is. Mu

Now I have a handle on what rankles you Mu. The Metronome, casting to a three count beat is where the beginning of his thoughts are rooted from.  The explaination is simple if one has the insight to the father who the two son’s learned much from. Practice, makes perfect. George Gehrke "and for me, this explains fly fishing rather well" Three words, the same as the ticking Metronome. And for the record, I include Grace, for study and review. grace (gr

Question:

We’re going to be on the North Carolina Outer Banks in January and I’m wondering if I should take my 8 & 9 weight rods and try for Blues in the surf. Any tips or opinions on equipment, patterns and technique would be much appreciated. Thanks and Happy Holidays!

Response:

We’re going to be on the North Carolina Outer Banks in January and I’m wondering if I should take my 8 & 9 weight rods and try for Blues in the surf. Any tips or opinions on equipment, patterns and technique would be much appreciated. Thanks and Happy Holidays!

        by all means, take your mess, and just check the local phone books.  you will find a friendly tar heel willing to advise or guide anywhere up or down the coast.  and, if you *really* use your head, you’ll forget the fishing, and grab a seaside cottage where you and your darllin’ can hole up with your favorite poison for a week or so of fun and games in the eastern half of the prettiest place on earth.         wayno the geocentric. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Question:

planning a four day trip over Bishop Pass with the object of climbing Mt. Sill. I haven’t done it yet, but am planning to by next year. I was planning on five days… day 1 to Dusy Basin, day 2 to Glacier Creek, summit on day 3, back to Dusy Basin on day 4, out on day 5. You might consider this, it makes more sense to me. If you do it in four, I’d love to hear about how it went! Cheers, Kevin

You should be able to do it in three.  South Lake to Barrett Lakes. Sill on day two and back out over Thunderbolt pass and Bishop Pass day three.

Response:

Greetings all, We three not-so-young-but-in-very-good-shape guys with good backpacking experience but no climbing experience are planning a four day trip over Bishop Pass with the object of climbing Mt. Sill. I’ve done some research on this and have found out the SW chutes up Mt. Sill are rated at only class 2 (maybe some avoidable class 3 bits). We like the sound of that. We’ve got a couple questions, though, if anyone has been up that way and has wise words for us. 1) Should we try to camp in the Palisade Basin or go all the way to the Glacier Creek area? We’re not sure how difficult Potluck Pass would be with our packs. As I said, we’re in good shape, but we’re not real mountaineers. 2) Is there fishing in either the Barrett Lakes or in the lake at the head of Glacier Creek? My dad, who’s coming, is a big fly fisherman (though he’s not above using bait if he’s hungry enough and the fishing is really bad). This could influence our decision on where to camp. Mmmmm, trout. 3) Does anyone have any advice on the climb of Sill, other than to make for the Polemonium Glacier and turn NE up the chutes to the top of Sill? We figure we can do this in a long roundtrip with only day packs. We’re right about that, aren’t we? We’re not interested at this time in getting killed or rescued (I suppose we’d take the latter over the former, but the embarassment factor would be awfully high). Thanks so much for any information that might make this a better trip. We’re very excited and look forward to that beautiful late Summer Sierra weather. (We actually attempted this trip three years ago and got snowed out at the trailhead. We ended up driving South and climbing Mt. Whitney instead. That was lucky. So we know we are being a bit risky.) Again, thanks for any tips and I’ll post a trip report when we’re back. Franz —         But now almost finished dissertating in Los Angeles  N.B.: Disguised address; please remove "delete-this." if replying.

Response:

Question:

Master New England fly tyer, Bill Thompson shaes his secrets for creating five great flies that really work in New England rivers, lakes and streams.  Over one and a half hours long and loaded with stories and some of the best fly tying instruction found anywhere.

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Services:WeddingsSenior PortraitsFamily portraitsDocumentaries and Special Interest VideosStock photographsSome examplesGreetings from Mt. Washington Valley , New Hampshire. Our photographystudio is in friendly Conway Village. We are just around the corner fromMt. Washington, the highest peak in the Northeast. We are known for greatskiing and beautiful scenery. New Hampshire is mostly woods, lakes, riversand mountains. In other words, a photographer’s paradise. Many of our weddingstake place in the the great out of doors. A high percentage of our highschool seniors opt for rustic motifs that reflect their own interest inoutdoor activities.COMING SOON: Right now we are working on a videoabout the personalities of fly fishing. Quiet Learning featuressuch local fly fishing personalities as Bill Thompson, Dick Stewart, DickSurette, Wendell Folkins. The national celebrites who have contributedto this effort include Lefty Kreh, Cathy and Barry Beck, Dave Whitlock,Jack Dennis, Mike Lawson, and Gary LaFontaine.AVAILABLE NOW:Innovative Twists on New and Traditonal Wicked Good Flies forNew England with Bill Thompson. Master fly tyer Bill Thompson shareshis secrets for creating five flies that really work in New England rivers,lakes and streams. This video features flies that were originally developedfor fishing other parts of the country. Bill shows you how to adapt theseeffective flies for New England Waters. This collector’s item is an essentialaddition to any fly tyer’s library. If you are looking for new ideas, thisis the tape for you. While this tape assumes some knowledge of fly tying,all levels of tyers will benefit from Bill’s instructive tips and wisdom.This tape is available at outlets throughout New England or you may orderdirectly, now, e-mail Rick DavidsonVideo. Only $29.99 plus S+HALSO COMING SOON: A new tape with Bill Thompson.This time Bill discusses some of the most famous flies that originatedin Maine. This video will feature on location photography, fly tying instructionand the history of each fly. Reserve you copy now and save.Special pre-release price $19.99. e-mail RickDavidson Video. Don’t miss this one. Bill’s tapes are both entertainingand informative. No one tells a fly fishing story like Bill Thompson.Need photographic services in New Hamsphire? Contact RickDavidson Photography and Video. Call 603-447-6008, 800-447-6008, Fax: 603-539-3281,

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Question:

I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate

Response:

I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate

Why not give Winston a shout?  They are on the Web at http://flyfishers.com/winston.html They ought to be able to give some good recommendations. Regards          Rx F Fish "For Your Good Health, Fly Fish" URL=http://www.xnet.com/~rxffish

Response:

I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate

I would occasionally have a tip section loosen up on me too (different brand rod though). When I started waxing my ferrules to keep them in good shape and the loosening problem went away as a bonus.  Good luck! August Kristoferson http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

Response:

I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts…

John — Wash the ferrules with a dishwashing detergent.  Rinse well and dry with paper towels.  After that try not to touch them with your fingers.   Good luck. -Ande Rychter

Response:

I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate

Try some paraffin or candle wax to lubricate the ferrule. If that doesn’t work I would send it back to Winston with a note. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’v had the top section of my Winston 3-piece 8 1/2 – 4wt. come off twice during casts. I’m real careful to push it onto the ferrule at a 90 degree and firmly twist it on. Is this common with 3-piece rods or am I just not putting the rod together properly. The bottom ferrule has never separated on me….but one of these times I’m going to get unlucky and lose the tip…. any advice???? Thanks in advance…..tight lines!!! John Applegate Try some paraffin or candle wax to lubricate the ferrule. If that doesn’t work I would send it back to Winston with a note. William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA

Even if it does work, send it back to Winston as soon as you can.  Damn thats a Winston, not a Cortland!  They’d be mortified to even hear about this thread on the net!!! jg

Response:

Question:

I’m heading for Bridgeport Monday. My first visit to the area last year wasn’t very productive due to incredible runoff (and a snowstorm). I would appreciate any advice on how the fishing is and what spots are producing. I’m kinda partial to stillwater FFing in my Poke Boat. TIA   —       There’s a fine line between fishing and standing       on the shore looking like an idiot.                                    Steven  Wright

Response:

: I’m heading for Bridgeport Monday. My first visit to the area last year : wasn’t very productive due to incredible runoff (and a snowstorm). : I would appreciate any advice on how the fishing is and what spots are : producing. I’m kinda partial to stillwater FFing in my Poke Boat. : TIA   : — :                                                                 :       There’s a fine line between fishing and standing :       on the shore looking like an idiot. :                                    Steven  Wright try www.flyfishing-online.com for the latest reports on the eastern sierra’s. sounds like it is major runoff time up there. jlc

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I’m heading for Bridgeport Monday. My first visit to the area last year : wasn’t very productive due to incredible runoff (and a snowstorm). : I would appreciate any advice on how the fishing is and what spots are : producing. I’m kinda partial to stillwater FFing in my Poke Boat. : TIA : — : :       There’s a fine line between fishing and standing :       on the shore looking like an idiot. :                                    Steven  Wright try www.flyfishing-online.com for the latest reports on the eastern sierra’s. sounds like it is major runoff time up there. jlcJust returned from Bridgeport Sunday. Was there for a week and

fishing is very slow. Too much water and a full moon. Try the Resevoir for bid fish. Talk to Rick at Ken’s Sporting Goods.

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I am looking for a new or secondhand Hardy #4 fly reel to match a Loomis #4 IMX rod. Marquis #4 or #5 , Golden Prince 5/6 or JLH Ultralite #4 or #5. Any info will be of great help. Thanks

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I am looking for a new or secondhand Hardy #4 fly reel to match a Loomis #4 IMX rod. Marquis #4 or #5 , Golden Prince 5/6 or JLH Ultralite #4 or #5. Any info will be of great help. Thanks

Contact Timeless Tackle in Edinburgh Scotland at 44-131-667-1407 or FAX 44-131-662-4215.  They deal in used and antique fishing gear and their list always seems to have a large selection of Hardy equipment. Ken Barry

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This subject is getting a lot of press with the identification of the disease in the Madison, so there is (finally) some information out there. The disease has been in Colorado for some time now and is getting worse. The culprit is almost certainly illegal stocking or (apparently in the case of Colorado) knowingly stocking with diseased fish.  There is evidence that the disease can be spread to other rivers via boots and other fishing equipment, but (at least according to Dick Vincent at the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Department) it is not spread by wildfowl. Brook trout and salmon are also affected. I suspect now that a river as important as the Madison has been affected, we will see a lot more about this and other threatening diseases.

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I would be interested in seeing the Washington Post article and the article mentioned in December from the Bozeman Gazette.  The posts I have been reading here about Whirling disease have really been upsetting.  My fishing buddies and I are trying to figure out what the best course of action for us would be.  Certainly no good plans have come from the "experts" as of yet (this would seem to be especially true in Colorado). Why hasn’t there been much yet in the fly fishing ‘literature’?  I haven’t read a thing in FR&R or Flyfisherman.  It would seem that research into why Browns and other unaffected species are immune would be the way to get this disease out of fish populations.  Does anyone involved in Fisheries Management or Biology at Montana State or at CU know anything about any research into the molecular biology/pathogenesis of this disease?  Please post!

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If this thing is protozoan and can potentially be spread by our wading boots, does anyone have any suggestions or know what we should be doing with our waders after fishing any of the potentially affected waters?  How long can the protozoa live out of water?  I often fish the Madison for a day or two, then go to the spring creeks in the Paradise Valley.  I would hate to be contributing to the spread of this disease into those waters, or any other for that matter!

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:   What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana : and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! : Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? The Washington Post article mentioned that cutts are susceptible to the disease. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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as u have pointed out whirling disease has made its way inot the wild population and indeed this is bad news.  as i have had it described to me this disease effects the delicate bone structure in juvinelle fish so when frightened/starteled they swim in small fast concentric circles instead of going for cover.  in addition, i have also heard that it is usually the result of the close confines of hatcherys that spread it, as u may also have heard the state of colorado fish & game department is releasing hatchery fish with this disease into some of their blue ribbon water, for what reason god alone knows and god aint speakin on this subject.  anyway i hope that the local TU chapters get involed in this an can help Mr. Vincent out.  from all reports he is a pretty good guy and knows a thing or two about how to maintain a wild trout population.  any news on this unhappy event is most welcome

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disease has been discovered in the wild rainbow populations of Montana’s upper Madison. None of us here knows anything more than that just yet. But it continues to look bad. The outfitters haven’t really caught on, because the spring/winter fishing is good at this very moment. But whirling disease, apparently, only effects the tiddlers. In a few more seasons, once the current crop of bigger rainbows has died off from old age, there may be no more little fish to replace them. I wish I knew more about what’s going on. I’ve heard that Whirling disease made its way into wild rainbow populations in Colorado some time ago. Who down there in Colorado knows something about this? Which Colorado river systems are effected? How long has this been going on, etc?  Is the Colorado problem stable in any way, or is it getting worse? —

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: some time ago. Who down there in Colorado knows something about this? : Which Colorado river systems are effected? How long has this been RE: Whirling Disease I met with some guides here in the shop over Christmas and this was the issue at hand. It looks very grim and much worse then originally speculated.  The guides are accusing the Colorado DOW of a MAJOR cover up.  They have SCREWED up big time and since fishing is such a huge economical thing…noone will come straight.  The local guides are going to try to take matters into their own hands and we are in the process of recommending a wierd but hopefully effective idea to the DOW for the 96-98 regs…the idea is to close off feeder streams to all fishing during the rainbow spawn. The idea is to try to get some of these genetically farked up fish to produce (naturally) fish that are genetically immune to the disease.  It is a long shot, but better then no shot.   Apparently noone is talking but the rumour is that all year classes are missing in some of the major drainages (i.e. NO/0/nada/zip baby fishes) and that the spore (?) is present throughtout the state and that it originated in a hatchery in Utah. All colorado fishermen should pressure anybody and everybody they know for more information ans to support this closed rainbow spawning fishing season in the feeders… Tim Walker

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RE: Whirling Disease Apparently noone is talking but the rumour is that all year classes are missing in some of the major drainages (i.e. NO/0/nada/zip baby fishes) and that the spore (?) is present throughtout the state and that it originated in a hatchery in Utah. Tim Walker

  What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? —

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I understand that there was an article in the Washington Post today (1/4) on the whirling disease in the Madison.  I have not seen it, but would like to get a copy if anyone has one.

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:   What about cutthroats? From what I have heard–in both Montana : and Colorado (and perhaps the Truckee too)–the brown trout are OK! : Does anybody know anything about Whirling disease and cutthroats? My understanding is that the cutts aren’t affected, allthough I haven’t conducted too many fry surveys and the misinformation in general does scare me.   Damned hatcheries indeed.  If only the folkes could to see fit to spend their tax monies on stream improvements and accept a greatly reduced general catch limit while the wild stocks rebound… Population estimates for colorado are around 5 million by the year 2000.  The state is just too fragile for this many people.  No, I don’t begrudge folkes for wanting to live here. Nor do I have any answers.   It frightens me to the core. Tim Walker

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: Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? It is a disease that affects the spine of rainbow trout fry that first showed up in the state hatcheries.  Now the dept of wildlife has introduced it into the waters and it is affecting the wild stock.   It is very, very serious and some think we are on the brink of a disaster of major proportions.  I really hope that some biologist in the know (Bob Golder…what’re you up to today) would really fill in the blanks. Tim Walker

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Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? Paul

Whirling disease is caused by a protozoan parasite that invades the cartilage of the skull, gill arches and spine.  It affects only trout and salmon.  Rainbow trout are the most seriously affected, browns (which probably coevolved with the parasite in Europe) are somewhat, but not totally resistant. The parasite goes through a complex life cycle which involves spores which may persist in the bottom sediments for many years, hence it is here to stay in the Madison. It may make infected fish swim in a circle  (whirling) or die, but more frequently cause deformities or make the fish more susceptible to predation or environmental episodes. It was discovered in Colorado in the late ’80s, Utah in ‘91 and now in Montana. Utah initiated a strong program to try to eradicate it when it was first discovered.  Later findings showed it had been spread, perhaps intentionally, to other parts of the state.  Current efforts are directed to try to protect wild native cutthroat from the disease.  Montana has a good program and  has been trying to prevent it from coming into the state.

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Hey, I may be stupid, but can anyone explain what Whirling disease is? Paul

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Whirling disease…..not good.  Up to 90% of the rainbows have died.  I got this from a guy at Lakestream Fly Shop in Whitefish last week.  It doesn’t seem to be affecting the brown trout population that badly.  Yet…another distrubing note.  They are not sure how the disease is spreading.  I am going to ask a fishery pathologist i know, on what he knows what is going on.  I will post the info that evening.  I will try to do it on Monday. If anyone around here knows what is going on…he will.  Yet the info coming my way on the impact of the disease is NOT GOOD!.  Just pray I guess. Peter

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Last night’s Bozeman Daily Chronicle ran the headline "Madison River Rainbows Diseased," or something like that. The story identified Whirling disease as the culprit, and quoted Montana Fish and Game Biologist Dick Vincent, who said upper Madison rainbow populations had plummeted from 3300 to 300 fish/mile in a single season. Brown trout, so far, seem unafected.    Whirling disease has traditionally been associated with hatchery fish in the past. How this disease has made its way into a wild population remains a mystery. But Dick Vincent did mention scattered reports of hatchery rainbows mysteriously appearing in the upper Madison in late 1980’s. What this means is anyone’s guess. Montana hasn’t stocked rainbows in the Madison for decades.    What happens next? There are rumors. But nothing definite yet. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a complete fishing closure on the upper Madison for a few years. It’s not clear that a slimy Elk Hair Caddis–heavily used Monday evening on the Madison–couldn’t transmit Whirling disease to Big Hole or Yellowstone rainbows on Tuesday morning. It would be a real tragedy if the lower Yellowstone’s (now) recovering native Cutthroat populations were to become effected (decimated?) too. This could be really bad news. —

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Last night’s Bozeman Daily Chronicle ran the headline "Madison River Rainbows Diseased," or something like that. The story identified Whirling disease as the culprit, and quoted Montana Fish and Game Biologist Dick Vincent, who said upper Madison rainbow populations had plummeted from 3300 to 300 fish/mile in a single season. Brown trout, so far, seem unafected. <snip   What happens next? There are rumors. But nothing definite yet. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a complete fishing closure on the upper Madison for a few years. It’s not clear that a slimy Elk <snip again

There are a lot of rumors bouncing around Bozeman today. The main one that I have heard is that FW&P will attempt a total rainbow kill on the Upper Madison, although how they would do this without taking out the browns is anyone’s guess.  Suggestions that I have heard include changing the regs to require people fishing to kill all rainbows and release all browns.  I can’t believe that this would get all of the rainbows – we just don’t fish that well. Another problem will be what to do if they can take out the rainbows completely.  Options would presumably include (a) leaving this stretch of river as a trophy wild brown river, (b) restocking the rainbows from hatchery fish, which would really degrade the fishery for several years, and (c) relocating wild rainbows from other parts of the river. On the less bad news side, it is my understanding that this is limited to the river between Quake lake and Ennis dam.  I never thought that I would be grateful for that stupid dam.  I.e., unless they lose it there is no immediate danger of this getting into the lower Madison and hence into the Missouri, Gallatin, etc.  At the other end, the Madison in Yellowstone National Park, and hence the Gibbon and Firehole, are not currently in danger. Unfortunately I haven’t heard that this will kill off the whitefish. The stretch of river affected by this disease is often claimed to be the best piece of wild trout water in the continental US, so this is already a disaster, and if the disease does get into the browns as well it will probably be 10-20 years before they can fully restore the fishery.  Not a good Christmas present for the people who read this group. Denbigh http://www.cs.montana.edu/~starkey http://www.cs.montana.edu/~starkey/fishing.html 406-994-4780 (work), 406-586-7614 (home)

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