Question:

<< How about some large, extended body mayflies like the Green Paradrake tied by Mike Lawson.  Other good patters would be trudes, Royal Humpy, Chernobyl Ant, Stimulators, Madame X, and those Turck Tarantulas are all pretty appealing to the eye.  Perhaps maybe something like a J.J.Special or Creature (as tied by Gary LaFontaine) would be good too. HTH. Warren Thank you, great suggestions.  I’ve got some Madame Xs going and a couple of Mouserat style things that make the Creature look kempt.  If I can set aside a little more time I’ll set up for extended body flys too. Thank you. Glenn GKT

Response:

Can you name a few decent trout patterns that would catch the attention of fly fishers stopping to look at the flys we’re raffling?

I’m a sucker for hoppers, personally. Either that or adult damselflies. Put down the chainsaw and listen to me. It’s time for us to join in the fight.

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<< Ernie Harrison"   << The Royal Coachman is an eye catcher. Ernie Good suggestion.  I’m out of practice so there’ll be some Bluegill specials as I warm up on the pattern. Thank you. Glenn GKT

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 Deer hair Mouse, stops a lot of folks, realistic ties…stones ,beetles ants make people stop and look. Big colorful streamers and a scantly clad lady should do the trick…

Reminds of some lures I had as a kid. Here’s one for you Ken, a budweiser can. Another was a topless mermaid. Willi

Response:

A couple of "realistic" flies separately mounted on card invariably provoke some attention.  Relatively simple beetle patterns, with lifelike legs, "Daddy long legs" ( Crane fly, tipulidae ) with knotted pheasant tail legs, spiders  with knotted peacock herl for legs, and realistic looking ants, and similar stuff usually work quite well. They will also catch fish occasionally !!!

A realistic damselfly adult is an eye catcher, with its electric blue color and its large size for a fry fly. I also agree with Charlie that streamers are a good choice. I’d think a display of little rainbow, little brown, and little brook trout mounted side by side would get some attention. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/

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A set of Ghost patterns tied up big – some #4’s – ought to do it.  Definitely eye-catchers but they aren’t Silver Doctors to tie… /daytripper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The Royal Coachman is an eye catcher. Ernie So what would catch a newbie’s eye?  And not take the time required for a full dress salmon fly? Maybe some streamers; little rainbow, brown, etc.

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Some hopper paterns. Willi

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 Deer hair Mouse, stops a lot of folks, realistic ties…stones ,beetles ants make people stop and look. Big colorful streamers and a scantly clad lady should do the trick… Here’s my question: Can you name a few decent trout patterns that would catch the attention of fly fishers stopping to look at the flys we’re raffling?

         Harry Mason     www.Troutflies.com               *** "Quality Flies for a Trout’s Eyes"

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<< A realistic damselfly adult is an eye catcher, with its electric blue color and its large size for a fry fly. I also agree with Charlie that streamers are a good choice. I’d think a display of little rainbow, little brown, and little brook trout mounted side by side would get some attention.   <<  royalwulff Excellent advice.  Presentation is probably nearly as important as fly choice.  Thank you. Glenn GKT

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<< Deer hair Mouse, stops a lot of folks, realistic ties…stones ,beetles ants make people stop and look. Big colorful streamers and a scantly clad lady should do the trick…   << Harry Mason   Our TU VP is a lovely woman but I think I’ll skip asking her to disrobe. Other than that, I’m going to put in a couple of Chris Helms style mice.  I appreciate the suggestion. Thank you. Glenn GKT

Response:

Can you name a few decent trout patterns that would catch the attention of fly fishers stopping to look at the flys we’re raffling?

Lots of good suggestions so far.  Streamers, in general, tend to be real eye catchers both because of their size and because they are often flashy attractors.  Hornbergs and Mickey Finns are both easy ties and eye catching, I think. Wolfgang

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<< Lots of good suggestions so far.  Streamers, in general, tend to be real eye catchers both because of their size and because they are often flashy attractors.  Hornbergs and Mickey Finns are both easy ties and eye catching, I think. Wolfgang Thank you.  I thought of a Mickey Finn color pattern in a Hi-Ti style.  It’s a little time consuming and probably no more eye catching than a standard streamer. Glenn GKT

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Use a Bee pattern.  The McGinty Bee attracts women who know nothing about fishing.  They all relate to it.  Many of the others just confuse them. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m tying for our local TU chapter’s raffle at the Somerset, NJ fly fishing show in January. We raffle off 500 or so flys in a a large wooden box.   I’ve done about 240 flys, at 6 specimens per type.  Since it takes me a few warm-up tries to get a decent fly with patterns I know well, and 50 tries on new patterns, I’ve also accumulated a pile of junk flies with which to go panfishing.  And I’m running out of inventiveness. Here’s my question: Can you name a few decent trout patterns that would catch the attention of fly fishers stopping to look at the flys we’re raffling? I put in some woven stones, I’ll do some woven Isonychia nymphs on swimming nymph hooks later today, and I have plenty of small spun deer hair items like Goddard Caddis and mini-Muddlers.  The other tyers and I have done plenty of flys that are actually useful, like BWO, GRHE, and Adams, but those are small and have to be examined closely. So what would catch a newbie’s eye?  And not take the time required for a full dress salmon fly? Thanks for the suggestions. Glenn GKT GKT

Response:

Glenn, How about some large, extended body mayflies like the Green Paradrake tied by Mike Lawson.  Other good patters would be trudes, Royal Humpy, Chernobyl Ant, Stimulators, Madame X, and those Turck Tarantulas are all pretty appealing to the eye.  Perhaps maybe something like a J.J. Special or Creature (as tied by Gary LaFontaine) would be good too. HTH. Warren – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m tying for our local TU chapter’s raffle at the Somerset, NJ fly fishing show in January. We raffle off 500 or so flys in a a large wooden box.   I’ve done about 240 flys, at 6 specimens per type.  Since it takes me a few warm-up tries to get a decent fly with patterns I know well, and 50 tries on new patterns, I’ve also accumulated a pile of junk flies with which to go panfishing.  And I’m running out of inventiveness. Here’s my question: Can you name a few decent trout patterns that would catch the attention of fly fishers stopping to look at the flys we’re raffling? I put in some woven stones, I’ll do some woven Isonychia nymphs on swimming nymph hooks later today, and I have plenty of small spun deer hair items like Goddard Caddis and mini-Muddlers.  The other tyers and I have done plenty of flys that are actually useful, like BWO, GRHE, and Adams, but those are small and have to be examined closely. So what would catch a newbie’s eye?  And not take the time required for a full dress salmon fly? Thanks for the suggestions. Glenn GKT GKT

Before you buy.

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I tied a deer hair mouse once.  It was very realistic looking.  I never did fish with it, figured it was too much work to give to a fish.  Don’t know what happened to it. Ernie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Deer hair Mouse, stops a lot of folks, realistic ties…stones ,beetles ants make people stop and look. Big colorful streamers and a scantly clad lady should do the trick… Harry Mason

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<< A couple of "realistic" flies separately mounted on card invariably provoke some attention.  Relatively simple beetle patterns, with lifelike legs, "Daddy long legs" ( Crane fly, tipulidae ) with knotted pheasant tail legs, spiders  with knotted peacock herl for legs, and realistic looking ants, and similar stuff usually work quite well. They will also catch fish occasionally !!! << Mike Connor Good advice.  I was thinking of a Crane fly imitation like a Drowned Daddy. Thank you. Glenn Tippy GKT

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The Royal Coachman is an eye catcher. Ernie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So what would catch a newbie’s eye?  And not take the time required for a full dress salmon fly? Maybe some streamers; little rainbow, brown, etc. — Charlie…

Response:

I’m tying for our local TU chapter’s raffle at the Somerset, NJ fly fishing show in January.   We raffle off 500 or so flys in a a large wooden box.   I’ve done about 240 flys, at 6 specimens per type.  Since it takes me a few warm-up tries to get a decent fly with patterns I know well, and 50 tries on new patterns, I’ve also accumulated a pile of junk flies with which to go panfishing.  And I’m running out of inventiveness. Here’s my question: Can you name a few decent trout patterns that would catch the attention of fly fishers stopping to look at the flys we’re raffling? I put in some woven stones, I’ll do some woven Isonychia nymphs on swimming nymph hooks later today, and I have plenty of small spun deer hair items like Goddard Caddis and mini-Muddlers.  The other tyers and I have done plenty of flys that are actually useful, like BWO, GRHE, and Adams, but those are small and have to be examined closely. So what would catch a newbie’s eye?  And not take the time required for a full dress salmon fly? Thanks for the suggestions. Glenn GKT GKT

Response:

So what would catch a newbie’s eye?  And not take the time required for a full dress salmon fly?

Maybe some streamers; little rainbow, brown, etc. — Charlie…

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So what would catch a newbie’s eye?  And not take the time required for a full dress salmon fly?

Personally, I’ve always remember liking the looks of a Royal Trude.

Response:

A couple of "realistic" flies separately mounted on card invariably provoke some attention.  Relatively simple beetle patterns, with lifelike legs, "Daddy long legs" ( Crane fly, tipulidae ) with knotted pheasant tail legs, spiders  with knotted peacock herl for legs, and realistic looking ants, and similar stuff usually work quite well. They will also catch fish occasionally !!! TL MC — "Where fishing is concerned, most anglers are basically manic excessives" http://www.mikeconnor.de – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m tying for our local TU chapter’s raffle at the Somerset, NJ fly fishing show in January.

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Question:

This report

"Grin" Very enjoyable read!! jim

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[snip] I had a great time.  Walt and Jeff were fine gentlemen and wonderful fishin’ buddies.

Yadda, yadda, yadda, now tell us the truth, eh!  :) Peter

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[snip] I had a great time.  Walt and Jeff were fine gentlemen and wonderful fishin’ buddies.

You had me going up until this statement. I expect the two guys you fished with were really Leigh Perkins and Lefty Kreh out slumming, they like to do that to stay in touch with the little people<g. (You didn’t buy any books, videos or dog beds from them did you?) — Charlie…

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(You didn’t buy any books, videos or dog beds from them did you?) — Charlie…

All three items, why do you ask? Opus

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All three items, why do you ask?

In that case, they *will* be back<g. — Charlie…

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This report is the fault of Steve Zimmerman and Jeff Connelly. Well that’s cool, it was worth it.  I could practically taste the beer and feel the cold water.  That’s why we argue so much you know, because we’re stuck behind our computer, bitter and cranky because we’re not actually

fishing. Speak for yourself, Jeff Actually, I did go fishing yesterday morning at the pond and caught a bunch. Not trout, but satisfying nonetheless. Afternoon fishing has been really good so just lemme know when you want to go again. –Steve

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Steve, At the very least you could have noted the *substance* of my report. You bitch. <G Opie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This report is the fault of Steve Zimmerman and Jeff Connelly. Well that’s cool, it was worth it.  I could practically taste the beer and feel the cold water.  That’s why we argue so much you know, because we’re stuck behind our computer, bitter and cranky because we’re not actually fishing. Speak for yourself, Jeff Actually, I did go fishing yesterday morning at the pond and caught a bunch. Not trout, but satisfying nonetheless. Afternoon fishing has been really good so just lemme know when you want to go again. –Steve

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This report is the fault of Steve Zimmerman and Jeff Connelly.

Well that’s cool, it was worth it.  I could practically taste the beer and feel the cold water.  That’s why we argue so much you know, because we’re stuck behind our computer, bitter and cranky because we’re not actually fishing. Regards, Jeff

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Speak for yourself, Jeff Actually, I did go fishing yesterday morning at the pond and caught a bunch. Not trout, but satisfying nonetheless. Afternoon fishing has been really good so just lemme know when you want to go again. –Steve

Sure!  Really good for *you*!  (This is an inside joke people.  Last time we went Steve caught a bass on his first cast, before I even was rigged.  On that shiny new bamboo rod of his, no less.  I proceeded to catch nothing.  He even gave me his exact fly.  The only thing I hooked was a rock which busted my line.  I think it was a native though, while Steve’s was stocked.) OK, maybe I’ll give it another shot…. Regards, Jeff

Response:

This report is the fault of Steve Zimmerman and Jeff Connelly.  Steve’s fault because of his no *substance* post last evening, Jeff’s because he had the audacity to e-mail me asking about the trip.  My hand was forced.  What follows is tedious and mind numbing, read at your own risk. Opie REPORT:  Fishin’ with Walt Winter and Jeffrey Miller We met at the confluence of Howard’s Creek and Wilson’s Creek.  I arrived first.  I was promptly accosted by dos game wardens.  I was handing over my fishin’ license, when the ranger dude said, "I smell the strong odor of marijuana, do you have any marijuana in your possession?" I had just finished a beer, and at first, I thought he was actually asking about the odor of alcohol.  I regained my composure, and told him I did not have any pot and that he was welcome to search my Suburban.  He declined.  I was wearing a skull bandana, and I sport a goatee.  There was no odor of pot present, eight or so years ago there would have been, but alas no longer.  I can only assume that I was profiled.  I was unaware that the rangers service had an *idiot* profiling program. I was still waiting for Walt and Jeff Miller, so I decide on another beer. I was leaned over in the front of my truck (that’s what I call my Suburban, no need to tell me its not a truck) reaching into the cooler for another beer, when someone said, "Had any luck?"  I spun around to see who it was, as I had not heard another vehicle pull up.  It was another game warden.  I dropped the beer I was holding back into the cooler.  I frantically started out of the truck and said that I had started fishin’ yet. He said, "but I see your boots are wet."  Shit these guyz are sticklers for detail.  I had been in the stream, while waiting on Jeff and Walt.  I proceeded to stammer well yeah, I had actually been in the stream casting a fly, but was really waiting on some buddies to really get started fishin’. I rambled nervously about having met Walt and Jeff over the internet at ROFF .  He was totally disinterested and probably thought this was some strange gay flyfishin’ site.  He asked for my license.  I stated that I had already been checked and wanted to know if he smelt the strong odor marijuana.  He look at me very puzzled, so I explained the previous rangers comments.  He declined to see my license since I had already been checked. However, he did want to search my truck for contraband.  He peered in, saw the all the shit I keep in my truck and waived any further search.  Gotcha! Walt and Jeff finally drove up.  I couldn’t help but notice when they stepped from the truck that they both used walkers.  Greeting were exchanged I was proffered a beer.  Still trembling from my last encounter with the ranger, I declined.  Walt proceeded to eat everything in site. Finally, we hit the stream.  I had tied on a dry fly with dropper nymph in tow.  I believe both Walt and Jeff had tied on straight nymphs.  The wind whip at gale force.  The Sun shone brightly.  We moved up the stream takin’ turns casting to unseen fish.  There were small mayflys buzzin’ about here and there, but no real hatch to speak of. I, being the magnanimous sort, said I would defer to the masters.  Walt proceeded to get hung-up in a tree, Jeff was having trouble casting and maintaining his walker too.  I decided then and there, I could fish with these guyz. To be perfectly honest, not much happened fish wise for me.  Walt did catch a few nice Browns.  The wind blew incessantly all day.  Jeff and I had a few hits but no landings. We decided to head back around five-ish.  We looked for a trail out.  I found an old loggin’ trail that led us into the thick of the mountain laurels.  We got back on the stream believing cliff climbing beat bushwhacking.  After a bit more rock hoppin’, Walt found a marked trail which we took.  It led us right back to the stream about fifty yards or so beyond where we had begun the trail.  Agreeing now that we would just rock hop and cliff climb our way out, I said follow me boys and proceeded across the stream.  Two steps and I was lying flat on my back in the stream.  They left me to flounder about, and took a dryer route. We made it back to the trucks before dark, popped the tops on some beers. They drank  some vile shit, I chose to drink an import (Coors Light).  They declined my offer of beef jerky, I declined their offer to go fuck myself. We drove to the top of the mountain stopped had another beer together, talked a bit, froze a bit, and finally parted ways vowing to never meet again!  The End. I had a great time.  Walt and Jeff were fine gentlemen and wonderful fishin’ buddies.

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Question:

Well, just back from my first casting lesson – very informative and useful.  some comments that may be of use to others: EVERY newbie should take a course – even one like mine at $50.00 for three hours, just to learn the basics, and rub shoulders with those who are experienced.  I learned just as much after the class just listening to the shop conversation as I did on the field. I had purchased an 8-wt. Fenwick HMG for stripers and salmon here in the Sacramento Delta.  After the instructor threw a few lines with it, he pronounced it to be a "gun" more like a 10-weight, and should be rigged and used accordingly.  (the rest of the class were using borrowed Sage 6-wts.)  I also learned you need a large capacity reel for anything much over a 7-weight, so if you are buying equipment, keep that in mind.   While I read books and watched videos, it did not compare with one-on-one instruction from someone watching your hand, wrist, arm and cast.  After the field instruction, we went back to the shop for a rigging lesson, learning knots from butt to leader to tippet to fly. And, a great tip – carry a map book with you everywhere – put it in your truck.  when someone tells you about a neat spot to fish, get the map, and get the exact location. Thanks to all, and I will see you on the river (after I get a reel and a sinking line setup…) Bill — William J. Kelly River Communications "We help business communicate" PO Box 691 Rio Vista, CA 94571 707-374-5816 www.thegrid.net/kelly

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, just back from my first casting lesson – very informative and useful.  some comments that may be of use to others: EVERY newbie should take a course – even one like mine at $50.00 for three hours, just to learn the basics, and rub shoulders with those who are experienced.  I learned just as much after the class just listening to the shop conversation as I did on the field. I had purchased an 8-wt. Fenwick HMG for stripers and salmon here in the Sacramento Delta.  After the instructor threw a few lines with it, he pronounced it to be a "gun" more like a 10-weight, and should be rigged and used accordingly.  (the rest of the class were using borrowed Sage 6-wts.)  I also learned you need a large capacity reel for anything much over a 7-weight, so if you are buying equipment, keep that in mind. While I read books and watched videos, it did not compare with one-on-one instruction from someone watching your hand, wrist, arm and cast.  After the field instruction, we went back to the shop for a rigging lesson, learning knots from butt to leader to tippet to fly. And, a great tip – carry a map book with you everywhere – put it in your truck.  when someone tells you about a neat spot to fish, get the map, and get the exact location. Thanks to all, and I will see you on the river (after I get a reel and a sinking line setup…) Bill — William J. Kelly River Communications "We help business communicate" PO Box 691 Rio Vista, CA 94571 707-374-5816 www.thegrid.net/kelly

I’ve been flyfishing for about 8 years now and most (99%) of my casting skill is self taught. Though last year as I was talking to one of my local flyshop owners ( 1 shop, 2 owners), I asked him what they charged for a casting lesson. He grabbed a rod and took me outside and gave me one for free. They’ll give anyone one for free. The last time I talked to him (last Saturday night) he invited me to go fishing with him sometime soon. I jumped on that one as I’ve been looking to fish w/ someone with more experience than me. The trip isn’t planned out yet but you can bet it will be soon, I can’t wait. This guy normally charges money to fish with him. I guess being a regular in a small town shop has it’s privileges. Tight lines, Darin

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Question:

  You mean like shaking up a warm budweiser, squirting it all over your   fishing companion and slamming it John Belushi style all the while mumbling   something about "didja see da size dat summabitch ?"….   —   TimW   Halfordian Golfer

I’m sorry that I don’t quite get it.  Does the mumbling occur before or after smashing the can to your forehead? cheers,         -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html email: replace the "this_address_is_wrong" with "tgades"

Response:

You mean like shaking up a warm budweiser, squirting it all over your fishing companion and slamming it John Belushi style all the while mumbling something about "didja see da size dat summabitch ?"….

No, that is not what I mean. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 2. I fish many catch and release streams and NEVER see a dead fish. 3. Whenever I release a fish after allowing it to regain its composure by gently holding it upstream and allowing it to get a flow of water through it’s gills, they always seem to take off on their own with little difficulty.  Is this lactic acid thing just some myth that some guide somewhere started to sound cool or knowledgeable?  I suspect so.  Show me the evidence. This is not new and wasn’t made up by some guide. Billfisherman have been talking about it for decades. There are times when some fisherman spend 1 minute reviving for each minute fighting to improve survival rates. Not much for a 5 minute tussle with a trout. How about after a couple of hours on a marlin?

The trick to survival of catch and release fish is to release them before they get exhausted. You need to play a bit and then bring them in and let them go. If you lose them horsing them in, then they just saved you the work of removing the hook. I try not to break off, try to get the fish in before it’s exhausted. They don’t always cooperate! Time spent reviving is well worth the fish being saved! DON’T PULL THE FISH BACKWARDS THROUGH THE WATER. . . SUFFOCATES THEM!!! Annie Oakley’s Casting & Blasting Page, shooting and fly fishing links: http://members.tripod.com/~AnnieOakley/CastAndBlast.html SORRRY SPAMMERS!!! Annie’s address is blocked. It’s really simple. . . Or linked from her site!

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Question:

I was recently introduced to fly fishing ( a long story of which I will spare you the details).  I took a 1/2 day lesson with a very experienced instructor which I greatly enjoyed and considered very valuable.  I know I still have a lot to learn and look forward to it, but I cannot afford more lessons.  Would anybody out there be willing to take me under their wing? I promise not to take much of your time if you just let me observe; let me know how I am doing every now and then; tell me some fly fishing stories you hvae experienced over the years; etcetera.  On our outtings, I could provide with excellent food, good beer, a good cigar, …  I know that this is not much to offer in return, but that’s all I can offer … plus a good friendship.  I live in Manchester, CT and be willing to drive anywhere to meet you. Let me know if you want to know more about myself or perhaps meet me.  I look forward to hearing from you.  Thank you so much in advance. Rafael  

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<snip  Would anybody out there be willing to take me under their wing? I promise not to take much of your time if you just let me observe;<snip  On our outtings, I could provide with excellent food, good beer, a good cigar, <snip  I live in Manchester, CT and be willing to drive anywhere to meet you.

  Drive on out to Colorado and bring a box of Cohibas, and I will let you watch me fish. You can surprise me with the good food and beer.                                    Charlie

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Try finding a local flyfishing club.  Dues are usually very nominal and such clubs often offer neophytes free instruction in various aspects of the sport.  Also, you’ll meet people there who you can buddy up with.  My club in San Diego organizes 3 or 4 long range trips per year, shorter range trips (within State) about once a month and weekly meets at the local lakes.  I cannot thing of a better way to get into and enjoy the sport than through your flyfishing local. —                                                            -dnc- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I promise not to take much of your time if you just let me observe; let me know how I am doing every now and then; tell me some fly fishing stories you hvae experienced over the years; etcetera.

Response:

Try finding a local flyfishing club.  Dues are usually very nominal and such clubs often offer neophytes free instruction in various aspects of the sport.  Also, you’ll meet people there who you can buddy up with.  My club in San Diego organizes 3 or 4 long range trips per year, shorter range trips (within State) about once a month and weekly meets at the local lakes.  I cannot thing of a better way to get into and enjoy the sport than through your flyfishing local.

– Rafael, ol’ buddy. This could be your most important flyfishing lesson of all. Never trust any flyfisherman who turns down a good cigar, good food, and good beer. Club schmub. Gas up and head for Colorado. That was a much better deal:)) BP

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Actually Meta might be right.  Obviously clubs aren’t for him.  That offer from Colorado does sound pretty good.  If you want to drive all that way to become a cook and give up your best Cubans, please suit yourself.  If that doesn’t work out, you can still use a local club as your back up, and you can always quit that, if it doesn’t suit your fancy.  Actually, you could try a club first, if one exists locally, and find out if that suits you. Never trust a man who tries to convince you to limit your options.–                                                            -dnc- PS.  By the way, I would gladly take you up on your offer for food and beer.  But alas, I hate cigars.  So I guess maybe you could trust me about two-thirds of the time.  Or perhaps the cigar thing is the telling factor, we’ll have to wait for sage Meta to pass us the phacts on that one.

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On our outtings, I could provide with excellent food, good beer, a good cigar, …  I know that this is not much to offer in return, but that’s all I can offer …

Sounds like a HELL of an offer to me… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

<Actually Meta might be right.  Obviously clubs aren’t for him.  That offer <from Colorado does sound pretty good.  If you want to drive all that way to <become a cook and give up your best Cubans, please suit yourself.  If that <doesn’t work out, you can still use a local club as your back up, and you <can always quit that, if it doesn’t suit your fancy.  Actually, you could t<ry a club first, if one exists locally, and find out if that suits you. <Never trust a man who tries to convince you to limit your options.– <   <                                                         -dnc- (It’s gettin’ a little too southern California serious for me.I don’t know, maybe its cause they don’t have any spring creeks for 100s of miles.  Please plant tongue firmly in cheek before reading.) Limit Options hell. Keep em wide open. How about Cheeseman, Frying Pan, Blue, and a hundred others that I’m sure shall remain nameless? Given the options to fish there, would one really want to spend the summer talking about ff in CT by comparison? Why drive? United, who does allow you to carry on flyrods, flies there cheap. As for cigars, I thought Rafael was gettin’  off easy only having to supply Cohibas instead of providing the proper cigar for each hatch. And he did say good food, so let’s at least call him a chef. But for clubs, to paraphrase Graucho Marx (famous cigar smoker), " I wouldn’t join any club that would have me as a member."

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<Never trust a man who tries to convince you to limit your options.– <   <                                                         -dnc- (It’s gettin’ a little too southern California serious for me.I don’t know, maybe its cause they don’t have any spring creeks for 100s of miles.  Please plant tongue firmly in cheek before reading.) Limit Options hell. Keep em wide open. How about Cheeseman, Frying Pan, Blue, and a hundred others that I’m sure shall remain nameless?

Not too serious, I hope.  But your rejoinder has given me a good laugh, so thank you…I think.  Unfortunately, you are 100% correct about the spring creeks (not even sure if I could define the term, although smooth water and the need for delicate presentation comes to mind…certainly an experience to be sought, and probably worth a few cigars!). As far as clubs go, they can offer an awful lot of free information for the urbanite neophyte.  So I say try it.  It couldn’t hoit.  Who knows, they might offer you a cigar.

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(JRGonza) writes: SNIP<

I’d suggest tracking down a copy of the "Curtis Creek Manifesto," an excellent primer (humorous too).  Then, while you’re browsing around the fly shops looking for it, ask about local flyfishing clubs.   99.99999% of flyfishing is going to be practice.  Here’s a tip: to catch fish, you don’t have to be a great caster, just learn to be sneaky.  Most of your casts will be thirty feet or less (10′ leader and 20′ of line out).  Learning not to spook the fish is a good thing.  I have caught some very nice Brown’s by hiding in the bushes and flipping a beetle over some grass into a lake with nothing but leader out. Oh yeah, buy a good pair of polarized glasses…makes a huge difference. Good luck! DP

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The Curtis Creek Manifesto is hilarious and good.  The author was a friend of my Dads and he lived near the Williamson River in Oregon.  He’s dead now, the victim, I think, of hard and fast living. As for mentors, my Dad was the best for me.  I am a fourth generation fly fisherman and that wisdom of the ages is good to have. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (JRGonza) writes: SNIP< I’d suggest tracking down a copy of the "Curtis Creek Manifesto," an excellent primer (humorous too).  Then, while you’re browsing around the fly shops looking for it, ask about local flyfishing clubs.   99.99999% of flyfishing is going to be practice.  Here’s a tip: to catch fish, you don’t have to be a great caster, just learn to be sneaky.  Most of your casts will be thirty feet or less (10′ leader and 20′ of line out).  Learning not to spook the fish is a good thing.  I have caught some very nice Brown’s by hiding in the bushes and flipping a beetle over some grass into a lake with nothing but leader out. Oh yeah, buy a good pair of polarized glasses…makes a huge difference. Good luck! DP

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Question:

I think Steve W asked about, or commented on weighting the bow for better tracking. The weight I use is the deep cycle battery, which weighs almost 70 lbs. That’s a lot of weight, more than most folks think of using, but it’s worked great. Bill Mack askedWhat did you do for the long connection from the fron of the boat to the motor?<< I used thick wire and connectors available from auto supply stores. Use at least 10 ga for 12 volt connections, I use 6 ga so I can use it with my 24 volt 70 lb thrust motor for real fast flowing water. Two deep cycle batteries up forward REALLY stabilize it. Hope this helps, sorry for the delay in replying. Fair winds and following seas, Pat in Pawtucket  RI

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I am looking for an canoe/boat with a square stern for mounting an electric trolling motor and some type of keel that would allow it to track upstream in a moderate current without the bow being swept around to the rear by the current. Specifically I would be using this in the Muskegon River (in case some may be familiar). I have tried this unsuccessfully with a 17′ fiberglass canoe (with a side mounted motor near the stern & without a keel). My electric motor is equal to a 3 hp gas. Anybody out there have any suggestions? CowboyMI – Steven W. There never was a horse that couldn’t be rode, nor a Cowboy that couldn’t be throwed….

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Steve W wrote I have tried this unsuccessfully with a 17′ fiberglass canoe (with a side mounted motor near the stern & without a keel). My electric motor is equal to a 3 hp gas.<< I use a 14′ fiberglass canoe in a similar situation, and sometimes even rivers flowing briskly. My electric motor is only 36 lbs of thrust (about 2.2hp). Had problems until I put weight in the bow (put the deep cycle battery up there) after which tracking true against the current became much easier. It also stabilized the canoe much better for fly casting. Fair winds and following seas, Pat in Pawtucket  RI

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PatKapsner wroteI use a 14′ fiberglass canoe in a similar situation, and sometimes even rivers flowing briskly. My electric motor is only 36 lbs

of thrust (about 2.2hp). Had problems until I put weight in the bow (put the deep cycle battery up there) after which tracking true against the current became much easier. It also stabilized the canoe much better for fly casting.

I have tried putting ballast in the bow of my 17′, tried many rocks & later 2 five gallon jugs full of water. It helped some but, I still had the problem with the bow swinging around when I ran into some faster currents. My electric motor has 52 lbs thrust. Perhaps it is the extra length & weight of mine that makes it harder to handle? Is your motor mounted on a square stern or on the side near the back? CowboyMI – Steven W. There never was a horse that couldn’t be rode, nor a Cowboy that couldn’t be throwed….

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Steve:  Try a Coleman Crawdad…square stern, takes either a 2.2 hp or an electric, goes upstream well, damn near indestructible.  I love mine…costs about $800.00 Canadian, and you can get them at Canadian Tire, Walmart, etc.  They’ve got a nice smooth trot and always move on the right lead…Good fishing… Jim Ward Twin Willow Farm Home of good horses, fine whiskey and great wild trout

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You might want to loo at the Mad River Missiquoi, it fits your requirements. However MDRs are expensive, but you get what you pay for. I have a MDR Winooski and love it. It is the same as the Missiquoi without the square stern. I use extensively for fly fishing in South Florida. . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I am looking for an canoe/boat with a square stern for mounting an electric trolling motor and some type of keel that would allow it to track upstream in a moderate current without the bow being swept around to the rear by the current. Specifically I would be using this in the Muskegon River (in case some may be familiar). I have tried this unsuccessfully with a 17′ fiberglass canoe (with a side mounted motor near the stern & without a keel). My electric motor is equal to a 3 hp gas. Anybody out there have any suggestions? CowboyMI – Steven W. There never was a horse that couldn’t be rode, nor a Cowboy that couldn’t be throwed….

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: PatKapsner wrote : (about 2.2hp). Had problems until I put weight in the bow (put : the deep cycle : battery up there) after which tracking true against the current became : much easier. It also stabilized the canoe much better for fly casting. : I have tried putting ballast in the bow of my 17′, tried many rocks & : later 2 five gallon jugs full of water. A couple of things. First, your motor is probably just on the edge of being able to push your canoe up the current. With this, adding "ballast" to the front will bring the front down, but it also makes more total weight for the motor (already struggling) to push. Moving the battery up front (thus not adding *more* ballast) may help this. You still might have problems, though. I used to bass fish from a 12′ canoe, and kept the battery up front. Worked beautifully, but I was on still water. Second, is your canoe keeled? Keeled canoes track better, but in your case maybe the keel catches the current quicker. I don’t know, just wondering. Length certainly does matter for turning the bow, so yeah, your little motor is struggling to turn it in this situation. I don’t think stern mount vs. side mount makes much difference, when you’re talking about your 17′er. My tip: pull out a paddle, kneel down a little forward of your rear seat so you can wield the paddle around the middle of the side of the canoe, and help the motor out. With the paddle you can easily keep the bow in place, heading up the current. Assuming you’ve canoed a bit, you know all the push, pull, J strokes you can do to quickly right the direction of the canoe. Try it, I think you’ll get through the fast sections with ease. JonCook.

Response:

Steve W wrote I have tried this unsuccessfully with a 17′ fiberglass canoe (with a side mounted motor near the stern & without a keel). My electric motor is equal to a 3 hp gas.<< I use a 14′ fiberglass canoe in a similar situation, and sometimes even rivers flowing briskly. My electric motor is only 36 lbs of thrust (about 2.2hp). Had problems until I put weight in the bow (put the deep cycle battery up there) after which tracking true against the current became much easier. It also stabilized the canoe much better for fly casting. Fair winds and following seas, Pat in Pawtucket  RI

What did you do for the long connection from the fron of the boat to the motor?  Bill Mack

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Question:

thanks for clarifying those aspects of your post I didn’t quite grasp re: comets. here in rainy BC we don’t get to see the sky much! Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :   : : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers : :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers : :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : : : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : : exceeds the resources capacity!   : : : Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to : many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in : only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and : expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.   : Whoever the elite are?  Is a fellow who hires a guide for 2 days on the : SanJuan but never at any other point in the year a member of the elite?  Are : your own irrational prejudices showing through?  Personally I have never : hired a guide.        I have, made me feel elite and I did not necessarily like it.  Point is that the outfitters do create limits on access to the people not wishing to spend that kind of money. : Personally I would have no problem with paying more for a licence than I do : now or paying a stream fee that is reasonable and doesn’t make it impossible : for most fishers to enjoy a good number of days on the water.        Neither do I.  I do not mind if the access is equally open to all of us, however the local outfitters are capable of and frequently do consume all the access available on private-fee fisheries and thus make the effective cost much,much higher.  That prices the opportunity out of reach for most. : My point is:  Tim and yourself seem obsessed with the problems of a few : waters.  To solve that problem they would radically alter our access to all : waters and even more radically alter how we act on them; force us to kill, : force us to be instruments of harvest and not sportsmen.        I do not, nor have I ever advocated **forcing** anyone to kill.  I limit my kill to as low a level as I can.  I have not consumed a trout for food in as long as I can remember.  I advocate allowing limited harvest rather than pure C&R.  I thought my post had made that clear. : I argue it is possible to regulate waters such as this individually to : reduce the problem and force anglers to spread out but overall maintain : general access and a pluralistic approach to harvest issues that allow : individuals to follow a variety of viewpoints.        This is precisely what I meant to say, only I argue that pure C&R is not the only approach and in most cases, it is unjustifyable. : If you don’t like it any more give it up and take up bird watching!        Thanks, but I prefer comets. — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

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:   : : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers : :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers : :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : : : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : : exceeds the resources capacity!   : : : Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to : many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in : only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and : expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.   : Whoever the elite are?  Is a fellow who hires a guide for 2 days on the : SanJuan but never at any other point in the year a member of the elite?  Are : your own irrational prejudices showing through?  Personally I have never : hired a guide.         I have, made me feel elite and I did not necessarily like it.  Point is that the outfitters do create limits on access to the people not wishing to spend that kind of money. : Personally I would have no problem with paying more for a licence than I do : now or paying a stream fee that is reasonable and doesn’t make it impossible : for most fishers to enjoy a good number of days on the water.         Neither do I.  I do not mind if the access is equally open to all of us, however the local outfitters are capable of and frequently do consume all the access available on private-fee fisheries and thus make the effective cost much,much higher.  That prices the opportunity out of reach for most. : My point is:  Tim and yourself seem obsessed with the problems of a few : waters.  To solve that problem they would radically alter our access to all : waters and even more radically alter how we act on them; force us to kill, : force us to be instruments of harvest and not sportsmen.         I do not, nor have I ever advocated **forcing** anyone to kill.  I limit my kill to as low a level as I can.  I have not consumed a trout for food in as long as I can remember.  I advocate allowing limited harvest rather than pure C&R.  I thought my post had made that clear. : I argue it is possible to regulate waters such as this individually to : reduce the problem and force anglers to spread out but overall maintain : general access and a pluralistic approach to harvest issues that allow : individuals to follow a variety of viewpoints.         This is precisely what I meant to say, only I argue that pure C&R is not the only approach and in most cases, it is unjustifyable. : If you don’t like it any more give it up and take up bird watching!         Thanks, but I prefer comets. — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ? Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

No Tim, I haven’t been lulled into anything. It’s a personal belief that has grown and matured during my 20 years of flyfishing. If C&R is done properly, i.e without touching the fish when possible and reducing the time of the fight, it beats the hell out of C&K. You’re right about one thing – it is best to leave them alone. Knocking everything you catch on the head is however both much more disrespectful to the pray than letting them go, and is simply a practise that belongs to the past. Sincerely, Hans Edman, Umea, Sweden

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No Tim, I haven’t been lulled into anything. It’s a personal belief that has grown and matured during my 20 years of flyfishing. If C&R is done properly, i.e without touching the fish when possible and reducing the time of the fight, it beats the hell out of C&K. You’re right about one thing – it is best to leave them alone. Knocking everything you catch on the head is however both much more disrespectful to the pray than letting them go, and is simply a practise that belongs to the past.

Hans – You can’t seriously debate with someone who *screams* about how heinous it is to scar a fish’s face and then let it go, but who freely admits to dragging fish around on a stringer while float-tubing because it keeps them fresh. Hell, use of a priest to euthanize the fish would be much *more* respectful and considerate than that. The *only* thing important to this guy is to go on feeling good about his right to kill fish when and wherever he wants. Don’t waste your breath treating with him or your time thinking he has a coherent point to argue. Only day before yesterday, Tim W said: ….and now I’m movin’ on…you either get it or you don’t…

And this, in debate terms, is called ‘begging the question’. I rest my case. and then said: No more C&R diatribe from me…

QED I am only trying to clue you in because I don’t recall seeing your name on posts before (forgive me if I am mistaken). I am probably rash in posting this, because, as you may have observed, we’ve been trying to shut debate on this topic down for a while (and maybe drop the animosity level a notch or two). May work, may not. Here’s hoping. — Lon Hall Applied Intelligence Group, Inc. Home #: (405)359-1556 Work #: (405)936-2389 "Eat the rich. The poor are tough and stringy."

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Lon Hall writes: Hans – You can’t seriously debate with someone who *screams* about how heinous it is to scar a fish’s face and then let it go, but who freely admits to dragging fish around on a stringer while float-tubing because it keeps them fresh. Hell, use of a priest to euthanize the fish would be much *more* respectful and considerate than that. The *only* thing important to this guy is to go on feeling good about his right to kill fish when and wherever he wants. Don’t waste your breath treating with him or your time thinking he has a coherent point to argue.

(snip) I am only trying to clue you in because I don’t recall seeing your name on posts before (forgive me if I am mistaken). I am probably rash in posting this, because, as you may have observed, we’ve been trying to shut debate on this topic down for a while (and maybe drop the animosity level a notch or two).

Thanks Lon, for dropping the animosity level down a notch or two. jim

Response:

Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ?

Sounds like your argument is "If you hook it, kill it – otherwise don’t fish". Gee, I sure hope you never lose control of a cast and end up hooking yourself.  "Yipes!  Hooked myself!  Better go shoot myself now…" <BANG!  <thud  (I can see the obituary page now – "Catch and Kill Fisherman Was True To His Sport".  :-) If I followed that logic where I fish most often I’d soon be out of fish.  It’s a small pond that probably has only a dozen or so good-sized bass in it.  If I killed each one I caught there wouldn’t be many left now, so I put ‘em back after I catch ‘em. My point is that what’s correct for you may not be correct for others in different situations, and vice versa.  Ah well, diff’rent strokes and all… — Bob Jarvis Mail addresses hacked to foil automailers! Remove ‘_spamless’ from reply address

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ? Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

           TIM,    IF YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU JUST WROTE THAN YOU SHOULD RESPECT THE FISH AND QUIT TRYING TO CATCH THEM  OR ARE YOU JUST ANOTHER  HYPOCRITE WHO LIKES TO HEAR HIMSELF PASS GAS.                    HARV

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip : – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE :    WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT :   LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY :     THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! : You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of : others! <snip Tim, correct me if I am wrong….  I is my understanding from reading Tim’s posts, that he does not oppose releasing a fish…  But rather opposes the existence of *pure* C&R fisheries.  Pure C&R fisheries lead to many evils, scarred & damaged fish, unusuall

Tim has certainly stated clearly that by lottery or by some enforced c&k regulation on all waters he wants to see fishing pressure reduced to the minimum number of anglers per mile. he has been all over the map on how to do this but Tim clearly has a prejudice against others who use the waters in ways he does not favour and will stoop to all sorts of regulations etc to get them off so he can enjoy his sport on his terms at their expense. : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : exceeds the resources capacity!   Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.  

Whoever the elite are? Is a fellow who hires a guide for 2 days on the SanJuan but never at any other point in the year a member of the elite? Are your own irrational prejudices showing through? Personally I have never hired a guide. Personally I would have no problem with paying more for a licence than I do now or paying a stream fee that is reasonable and doesn’t make it impossible for most fishers to enjoy a good number of days on the water. My point is: Tim and yourself seem obsessed with the problems of a few waters. To solve that problem they would radically alter our access to all waters and even more radically alter how we act on them; force us to kill, force us to be instruments of harvest and not sportsmen. I argue it is possible to regulate waters such as this individually to reduce the problem and force anglers to spread out but overall maintain general access and a pluralistic approach to harvest issues that allow individuals to follow a variety of viewpoints. After jousting with Don Quixote for a number of months I still don’t know what his bottom line is or what he is really after. I find increasingly I am dealing with a point of view that is self righteous, closed minded, hypocritical, sees the resource and the sport as exclusively for those that share the point of view and shifts and gets more radical as one finds legitimate criticism of it’s basic proposals. I also find it is a point of view that assumes it has a sort of papal infallability and is beyond criticism. just look at his response to the criticism of his use of stringers. Any level of agony inflicted on fish is justified as long as he is the one who is inflicting it! Because he eats the catch he has given himself carte blanche to something approaching sadism. If you don’t like it any more give it up and take up bird watching! Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

Response:

Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature

Hans, I am afraid that you too have been lulled in to believing that the disrespect of hooking nature in the face with a hook can be mitigated by its release.  This ‘respect of nature’ argument is the most ludicrous and hypocritical reason for pure C&R that I can think of.  If you *truly* respected our wild friends, you would *not* fish for them, you would leave them alone, would you not ? Respectfully, — TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

<snip : – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE :    WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT :   LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY :     THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! : You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of : others! <snip Tim, correct me if I am wrong….  I is my understanding from reading Tim’s posts, that he does not oppose releasing a fish…  But rather opposes the existence of *pure* C&R fisheries.  Pure C&R fisheries lead to many evils, scarred & damaged fish, unusually crowded and overfished stretches of rivers, and the threat of PETA attacking our sport.   We could change the regulation to a slot limit on most pure C&R fisheries without diminishing the fish significantly and then allow the taking of the older, scarred up fish.  This *for me* would much improve the fishing experience because I personally do not like catching torn up scarred up fish like you find consistently in the locations listed below.

:       There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters: :       The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi. :       The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway. :       The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon. :       If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these :       places then you will never ever understand the truth.   : So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact : regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers :  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers :  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide : they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – : and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access : exceeds the resources capacity!   We already have a few lottery situations in the regulations of hunting.  I believe this will ultimately become a necessary solution if the popularity of fishing continues to increase at the rate we have seen in the past few years. While I would not like the restriction of access at all, I would enjoy the fishing experience much more assuming the lottery is fairly administered. This however will not happen because the outfitters will demand an unfair share of the access to maintain their businesses.   Ralph, IMHO, lottery and fee based restrictions you advocate run contrary to many of the arguments you made in your post.  These methods will result in only the elite getting access, because the non-elite cannot afford guides and expensive fees for a few hours of fishing.  Also, *I believe* lottery systems will unfairly favor the guides who will find ways to obtain more than their fair share of access permits to further their business. You can argue that a lottery system already exists in this way….  First to a fishing hole gets the spot.  The guides on many rivers in our area arrive very early (or have a paid flunky get there) and stake out the best fishing holes on the river.  They bring their sports (elitists who have the bucks to hire a guide to grab and hold the best water) to these spots and stay there all day.  You will find this happening alot on the Pan and So Platte.  On the floatable rivers, the guides get more than their fair share for float permits, thus again limiting access to the elite. These are complex problems which will get nothing but worse as population increases in our area.  I fish now and enjoy it very much, but I do not expect to fish nearly as much in the future as the quality of the experience continues to diminish with the pressure of multitudes.  One can only hope that Hollywood does not make another movie about flyfishing. — Hewlett Packard, ESL R&D, MS55 Ft. Collins, CO  80525

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tim, you should change your handle to Don Quioxte; you put so much effort into tilting at wind mills! TimW writes:    The neighbor’s collie still craps on the lawn even after Eddie    throws snowballs at it.. [snip] Your dog poop "thing" reminds me of a funny story: A friend went to complain to his neighbour about the neighbours dog crapping on his lawn. As they stood discussing the issue – of course the neighbour contested his dog would never do such a thing – the dog wandered over into my friends yard and dumped in plain sight of both of them. That’s exactly what’s happened here!    You and many pure C&R-ers measure the ethical treatment of animals    only by mortality studies.  You do not consider that a wild animal    in its element *deserves* a certain amount of respect. [snip] By your gut you refer to your stomach no doubt – your great arbitrator of ethical issues. If there is an ethical issue ( and you’ve never even tried to establish why there is one) it is far more complex than you make out – or even have attempted to comprehend; (Oh sorry Tim this may be an insult but then I’m just calling them as I see them – <BEG)    The carnage of pure C&R is swept under the rug every month in    the ff magazines and the entire industry is brainwashed into    thinking that it is somehow OK to hurt a wild animal, just for    fun. Whatever that carnage may be if it exists anywhere but in your imagination remains to be defined and exposed; get off your duff and do it  - maybe I’ll come around to your point of view! [snip]    You insist (greedily) that ‘quality fishing’ implies ONLY number    of and size of fish. This is the part where YOUR dog craps on my lawn in plain sight of everyone who has a look; I made no such insistence; I usually choose less uncrowded waters populated with fewer fish to have some peace- BUT THAT IS MY CHOICE- I’m not out to stuff my choice down anyone’s throat.  The fish I catch are often a pound or less when I could easily go elsewhere to catch pickup loads of fish bigger than you have ever seen. – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE   WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT  LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY    THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of others! If that isn’t greed what is? Any greed associated with catch and release pales beside that old chum. You know Tim I hoped you could do better than these dreary ad hominium arguments – but perhaps you’ve picked up the habit from some my fellow c&r’ers who couldn’t do better either.    There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters:    The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi.    The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway.    The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon.    If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these    places then you will never ever understand the truth.   So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access exceeds the resources capacity!   But I will never support lottery access so some catch and kill elitists can get all the rivers to themselves, so they can kill a few fish but bar those who’d let them go! The very essence of the sport has to be that given a set of regulations the angler gets to choose how he pursues his sport. This was the meaning of Haig Browns "the Law Breaker" if we are forced to kill then we are only instruments of harvest not sports fishers.    Someone actually argued against the position that fisheries    management is about a balance of fish and having as few fishermen    per mile Gee who was that? Ralph H        TimW Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. — TimW Halfordian Golfer

                       Harv

Response:

Tim, you should change your handle to Don Quioxte; you put so much effort into tilting at wind mills!  TimW writes:

        The neighbor’s collie still craps on the lawn even after Eddie         throws snowballs at it.. [snip] Your dog poop "thing" reminds me of a funny story: A friend went to complain to his neighbour about the neighbours dog crapping on his lawn. As they stood discussing the issue – of course the neighbour contested his dog would never do such a thing – the dog wandered over into my friends yard and dumped in plain sight of both of them. That’s exactly what’s happened here!         You and many pure C&R-ers measure the ethical treatment of animals         only by mortality studies.  You do not consider that a wild animal         in its element *deserves* a certain amount of respect. [snip] By your gut you refer to your stomach no doubt – your great arbitrator of ethical issues. If there is an ethical issue ( and you’ve never even tried to establish why  there is one) it is far more complex than you make out – or even have attempted to comprehend; (Oh sorry Tim this may be an insult but then I’m just calling them as I see  them – <BEG)         The carnage of pure C&R is swept under the rug every month in         the ff magazines and the entire industry is brainwashed into         thinking that it is somehow OK to hurt a wild animal, just for         fun. Whatever that carnage may be if it exists anywhere but in your imagination remains to be defined and exposed; get off your duff and do it  - maybe I’ll come around to your point of view! [snip]         You insist (greedily) that ‘quality fishing’ implies ONLY number         of and size of fish. This is the part where YOUR dog craps on my lawn in plain sight of everyone who has a look; I made no such insistence; I usually choose less uncrowded waters populated with fewer fish to have some peace- BUT THAT IS MY CHOICE- I’m not out to stuff my choice down anyone’s throat.  The fish I catch are often a pound or less when I could easily go  elsewhere to catch pickup loads of fish bigger than you have ever seen. – I WILL NOT ACCEPT BEING LABELLED AS A GREEDY PERSON BY SOMEONE    WHOSE AVOWED INTENTION IS TO ENACT RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT   LIMIT FISHING OPPORTUNITIES TO A FEW SO HIS PLEASURE IS IMPEDED BY     THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF PEOPLE POSSIBLE! You are out to enhance your pleasure at the expense of the pleasure of others! If that isn’t greed what is? Any greed associated with catch and release  pales beside that old chum. You know Tim I hoped you could do better than these dreary ad hominium arguments – but perhaps you’ve picked up the habit from some my fellow c&r’ers who couldn’t do better either.         There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters:         The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi.         The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway.         The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon.         If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these         places then you will never ever understand the truth.   So? Why don’t you show the kind of guts we’ve shown in BC and enact regulations that reduce the level of pressure on those rivers; those rivers  belong to the residents of those states! Check out the regs for BC rivers  like the Dean! Non-residents have to pay more; they have to use a guide they may have to enter a lottery for a right to fish – and yes I support the use of lottery entrance where the demand for access exceeds the resources capacity!   But I will never support lottery access so some catch and kill elitists  can get all the rivers to themselves, so they can kill a few fish but bar those who’d let them go! The very essence of the sport has to be that given a set of regulations the angler gets to choose how he pursues his sport. This was the meaning of Haig Browns "the Law Breaker" if we are forced to kill then we are only  instruments of harvest not sports fishers.         Someone actually argued against the position that fisheries         management is about a balance of fish and having as few fishermen         per mile Gee who was that? Ralph H         TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

– TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

Well spoken, Ralph! Here in the northern Sweden I’m not obliged to release the browns, graylings or char I catch. I’ll do it anyway, out of respect of nature and its limited resources. If I had to kill all the watery friends I manage to outwit, by imitating what they eat, by making a great cast, by reading the water or simply by persistance, then I would feel sick. It would be like having to kill the dog after walking it. Roughly… /Hans Edman, Umea, Sweden

Response:

Yeah yeah yeah… The neighbor’s collie still craps on the lawn even after Eddie throws snowballs at it…you can leave the bitch out on a 20 below zero night and she still wags her tail at you in the morning.  Same thing if you stake her out in the hot August sun in Rifle.  You can be cruel as hell to a dog, they’ll still be around to crap on the lawn, man. But you know Ralph…I feel better that I do not kick her or tie her up in the sun and I feel better when she has water and food. You and many pure C&R-ers measure the ethical treatment of animals only by mortality studies.  You do not consider that a wild animal in its element *deserves* a certain amount of respect. They do not exist purely for our pleasure, of that I am certain.  This is what MY gut tells me.   The carnage of pure C&R is swept under the rug every month in the ff magazines and the entire industry is brainwashed into thinking that it is somehow OK to hurt a wild animal, just for fun. Why do you continue to ignore the efficacy of selective harvest as a workable concept in all fisheriy situations ? You insist (greedily) that ‘quality fishing’ implies ONLY number of and size of fish.  This ONLY guarantees crowded conditions which nails the coffin of quality shut… There is no quality of experience left in the following pure C&R waters: The San Juan below Navajo Dam.  The Frying Pan below Reudi. The Green below Flaming Gorge.  The Uncompaghre below Ridgway. The South Platte (God rest her soul) below Cheesman canyon. If you think that pure C&R has enhanced your experience in these places then you will never ever understand the truth.   Someone actually argued against the position that fisheries management is about a balance of fish and having as few fishermen per mile as possible.  Amazing.  Absolutely amazing.   TimW – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice. There is nothing we do when we lure a fish, hook it, play it, land and then release it that is not done with catch and kill. The experience of the fish is the same up until the point it is released! Then it is given a 90%+ chance of survival! Ninety percent or better that it will spawn and enhance the fish stock. Ninety percent or better that it will do the fishy things that make a fishes life worth while. That make our sport worth while. If we cave in to the hysterical and illogical forces that would restrict the catching and killing of fish to force of law and the chance of lottery we will strip the sport of its essence. We will  be able to fish so seldom that most will hang their rods in shame and pursue other pastimes. For those that do continue to fish the mystery of fishing will be replaced by the certainty of a dead fish or two and a modest meal. Without catch and release fishing as we have come to know it will not stand and will pass into the oblivion of archaic practice.

– TimW Halfordian Golfer

Response:

Question:

I doubt if you’d be safe from commercial sex site solicitations even at rec.fly-fishing.

   - uh…you said `Fly’ –

Response:

I doubt if you’d be safe from commercial sex site solicitations even at rec.fly-fishing.

Hey, I’d not object to a jpg of christine in some hip waders… TimW

Response:

Question:

                            FLY FISHING BOOKS                                  FOR THE                                 SPORTSMAN * The American Sportsman Treasury, ‘71, by Knopf.  A collection of Fly Fishing and Hunting stories, with terrific art work and photos.  Chapters on fly fishing for Brown and Rainbow Trout, fly patterns that produce results, bamboo fly rods; and hunting white tail deer, woodcock, water foul, mountain sheep, grouse, etc. All written by famous authors, eg. Charles F. Waterman, Lee Wulff, Leonard M. Wright, Roderick Haig-Brown, William G. Sheldon and many others. An excellent book for the all around sportsman, and a way to reflect on the sporting heritage. * The Treasury of Angling, ‘63 by Koller.  A comprehensive history of angling, and the birth and growth of fly fishing. Chapters on angling in antiquity, early american angling, tackle, flies, entomology, Salmon, Trout, Bass, and other fresh water fish.  Terrific photos and art work.  Learn about the history of fly fishing and game fish, and gain a full sporting knowledge of the art of fly fishing. E-mail me if interested in these books, and I will e-mail cost info. JWTrout/2/11/96

Response:

I’m interested. Thanks, Wayne Lance

Response:

Question:

check out the fly fishing page at this site.  The fly fishing info changes on a monthly basis. http://www.accelerated.com  ::::::::::::::::::::<<< INTERNETWORKING THE DESKTOP ::::::::::::::::::::  John Loschky  SPRY, Inc.                          Phone: (206) 442-8225  316 Occidental Avenue South         FAX:   (206) 447-9008      Seattle, WA  98104                  http://www.spry.com  :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Response:

check out the fly fishing page at this site.  The fly fishing info changes on a monthly basis. http://www.accelerated.com

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Response: