Question:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband.

In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..  

In my case I paid for the setting and we used a stone she had (grandmothers, perhaps? I don’t recall and it doesn’t matter). I didn’t get the setting back; she never offered and I never asked because I didn’t want it. The setting was indeed a gift from me to her so I feel I have no claims on it. I would not have accepted it if she had offered it to me. My ring was a custom piece of jewelry we picked out together, though I paid for it so technically it wasn’t a gift from her. I gave it back to her without thinking twice about it. The fewer things I have in my life that remind me of her the better.

Response:

Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. In past discussions here, it came up that quite a few times the woman bought her own ring or it was a family heirloom on her side, IOW, didn’t come from the man..

EVERYTHING comes from da man, silly girl!    (If you don’t believe me, ask Andre or Ronnie44dd.   Whattas a matter with you, anyway)?    :-)

Response:

Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

If he is this bad, you can’t leave your children to his care, I know it is tempting to get revenge on him but think of your children, they will suffer more if you went to prison.  Get out, and get your children out.  There are organisations for abused wives, get one on your side and have them help you work this out. Mandy

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!! He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

The real abuse here is the abuse that you did to yourself by staying so long.  I hope you can learn to love yourself as much as you deserve. bogey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Leaving ======= General guidelines for leaving a spouse in the US. So you decided to end the marriage and are leaving the house. When it comes time to leave, there are certain things you should do in a certain order, to avoid confrontations with or violence from the spouse. Here’s how to do it. Some rules to follow when doing all these things: – Be polite when working with your spouse – Be fair. Take only 1/2 of what you both own. – It may be a good idea to buy a cassette recorder and put it in your shirt pocket when talking with your spouse. This is not usually admissable in court but it will give you some leverage against the spouse if they are acting loony, violent, or unfair. If the judge asks "Do you have proof your spouse is a loony?" you can mention the tapes. – If you think the spouse will get violent, call the police. Hide around the corner and when they come to the house, then go to the house. Tell the police you need them to watch your spouse while you pack. – If the spouse attacks you (even if a wife attacks a man) MAKE A POLICE REPORT. If you don’t have proof (a police report), it will not help you. Finding an apartment Make your budget. Find out the net amount of your paycheck you bring home each month (after taxes, you can’t spend the taxes, can you?). Now subtract rent, car insurance, phone, utilities, gas, food, clothes, entertainment, and any other expenses you can think of. If you have money left over, you are doing good. If not, find places to trim expense, like don’t go to the movies, cancel cable/satellite, don’t go out to eat, eat in instead, buy a cheaper car. Now find a cheap apartment and sign a lease. Packing up – You will need to get your names off credit cards VERY quickly, that means moving out first. – Try to pack your most valuable things first, like cash, life insurance policies, stock policies, records for your bank accounts, IRAs, and other retirement accounts. Make sure you pack some pens, pencils and a notebook, you will need these later. If you have joint accounts, take the papers, copy them at the library or somewhere else, then return them to the house. – Try to pack when the other spouse is not there, like when they are not at work, or when they are shopping. Have a friend along with a video camera in case they come home early. Hide your car around the block (it could be seen down the street so don’t hide it there) or use a friends car that is not well known. Pack your stuff in the friend’s car then transfer it to your car in a place the spouse does not go. – Remember to pack a suit, you will need it for court proceedings. Assets ====== Decide what possessions to take with you. Generally the state will divide up all the assets so each spouse gets an equal share based on the current sale value of the asset (like if you sold it at a garage sale). The person who gets the house gets the value of the equity of the house, so they will get a lot less other things. Equity is the assessed value of the house minus the loan amount. It is NOT the value of the house plus the amount you spent to improve it. Generally the state allows you to keep what you had before the marriage, and allows you to keep gifts that were only to you, but this is still part of the "equal share" that the two of you get. Women, if you give the ring back, you will look really good for the judge. But I doubt any judge would require you to do that, since it was a gift from the husband. DON’T DO THE NEXT STEPS UNTIL YOU’RE ALL PACKED UP and moved out. Separating Finances The basic finance separation is in several groups: – Assets – Bank accounts – Credit cards/debit card – Retirement accounts – Loans/mortgages 1. Bank accounts First, get your own account, have the statements mailed to work or a trusted friend’s house. You don’t want these new statements discovered by the soon to be ex (STBX). When that is final, figure out what half of the cash assets would be (include all money markets, savings and checking accounts, not retirement or IRA accounts). Take half the cash and put it into your new account. Take your name off the accounts if possible. If you need their signature to do this, call a lawyer and find out if there’s another way to do this. 2. Credit Cards People often run up huge debts on credit cards in anger. First, try to take your name off all credit cards. I was the primary holder of a credit card, which meant I could put my wife’s name on it, and take it off. She couldn’t do anything. If you’re not the primary holder, AND you can’t get your name off a credit card, talk to a lawyer and find out what can be done. If you can’t do that, lower the limit on every credit card to the minimum. You should be able to do this alone, but then again the spouse could raise it up again by themselves. Talk to the CC company to find out who can do what. Try to freeze the cards so no one can use them and tell the CC company you’ve seen suspicious activity on the cards or you think you’re identity has been stolen. As a last resort, cancel the cards if necessary, but TELL THE SPOUSE. You will look bad to the judge if you don’t tell them. Send them a letter so you have paper proof that you told them. 3. Retirement accounts Just start by taking your IRA papers with you. You can sort it all out later in court. Let the other spouse keep their retirement account. 4. Loans/mortgages I don’t know how these are handled. But if you keep your name on the loan you ARE responsible for it, whether you are divorced, separated or not. Try to get your name off the mortgage, but NOT off the title to the house. This is so the other can’t default on the mortgage and ruin your credit. The Car ======= If you each have a car, take the one that you use the most. If you have one car between you, the working spouse will generally get the car. Should you buy a new one? Generally, no, unless you just purchased a brand new car in the past year. Calculate the net worth of the car will help you. Net worth=Value of the car (get it from Kelly Blue Book on the web) – any loan outstanding. Here’s an example. Car A: bought 2 years ago, valued at $15,000, loan left is $13,000, so net worth is $2000. Basically, you have $13,000 in loans to pay off. If you can’t afford it, get a used car worth less than $13,000, say around $7000. Try to make small payments. This will cause you to pay more interest over the life of the loan, but you really need the cash right now. Car B: bought 5 years ago, valued at $5000, no loan outstanding. Net worth is $5000. This is the best deal, since you have no car payment in this case. Car C: new car bought last year, valued at $24,000, loan left: $25,000, net worth=-$1000. Even though this has a net worth, you still have $25,000 left in loans to pay. This is a bad deal because if you sell the car you will still have to pay $1000 to cover the loan and you will not get any money back because it has a negative net worth. Your best bet is to get a $7000 car, pay the extra $1000. Insurance for the used car will be less than for the new car anyway. What will make you look good to the judge: – If you are fair to the other spouse. (Divide assets equally. Don’t take their favorite baseball card collection just to be mean.) – If you don’t hit them, threaten them or damage their property. – If you don’t show bizarre behavior (like damaging the other’s property) – If you keep the spouse informed, like when you cancel the credit cards. – Getting the kids out of a violent home. (You must have PROOF of this violence as a recording, or police report.) What will make you look bad: – Not going to counseling when the spouse does. – Being unfair. – Being angry in court. – If you have a serious illness, like cancer, it will really reduce your chances to get the kids. – If you have a serious illness, like depression, which is not being treated, you will have a lesser chance to get the kids. – Doing drugs. – Having a police record. – Being known as the "one who’s always screaming" by the neighbors. – Having boy/girlfriends before the divorce is final. – Trying to hide assets from the spouse. – Having an affair during the marriage. (Shows lack of commitment.) – Not being real involved with the kids. – If you don’t have a job. – If you have trouble holding a job. Abuse claims Filing a false abuse claim is now illegal in some states, and it is even enforced sometimes. Find out the status of false abuse claims, perhaps by calling the police department. — "Tis better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST

ME!!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused. We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

Response:

"DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED)

This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these!

SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -…nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

IF your children want to stay in the house regardless of the fact that he is mean to you then something is wrong. IF you want to stay in the house regardless of what HE is doing to YOU then there is something VERY WRONG!!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s no wonder why women put up and shut up with comments like these! SO QUIT YOUR BITCHIN, AND JUST SUE THEIR ASS!!    IT’S THE LATEST NEWAGE FAD….     GO FOR THE GOLD…. "DONT WORK IT OUT……JUST SUE IT OUT!!!" (TM @BH.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED) This could be a winner,…do you have an agent? …nevermind,…they’re all lawyers.

Response:

Huh?  How can you even think this about the man you just previously described? I think *you* would be abusive by letting him near your kids. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I believe he is abusing his children by not being here

Response:

Lemme get this straight,…you have a stay-away order,… and you’re complaining that he never comes over? You want the house,…but you want him to repair it? I get so confused.

We are still in the same house!!!! They would not give me an extendended PFA against him. He filed a counter and said I was acting irrationally…NO WONDER….but I am not acting irrationally other than being here taking his constant harrasment. THE ONLY REASON I STAY IS BECAUSE MY CHILDREN WANT TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE!!!!!  He could repair the house, FOR THE CHILDREN! It’s not or at least shouldnt be ALL REVENGE AGAINST ME!!!

Response:

I have until Dec 3 to survive through this. At that time, we have a sole possesion of the house hearing. My lawyer and I are also filing charges as he has blatently,gone against the civil stay away order!!!!  I am trying to stay here for my boys who are 19, 17 and 15 now. My 15 year old is having problems i.e. skipping school and smoking marijuanna. To my husband, it is all about money and making sure he will not have to give me one red cent or the house!!!  He is neglecting his boys other than to take them camping once a month or fishing. HE IS NEVER HERE EVEN ON HIS DAYS OFF!!! I believe he is abusing his children by not being here and also not doing one thing in this house at all!!!  (and I am talking about necessary repairs!) He thinks he is doing that to spite me, but it is effecting them as well!!!!  He said to me last night that "He can’t believe I am still here!" because he knows he has done and said almost everything possible short of just coming out and killing me. Little does he know he almost has. He wants me to break! He knows I cant stand my house to be litterally filthy and it is daily! He wont tell the boys to do anything, because he wants to remain the good guy AT ALL TIMES!  He loves it when I get into an argument with them…becuase he feels that it is pushing them to his side!!!! He wanted me  , no he begged me to go to work, and now he is using that against me also with the kids! Last night he even said all I was doing was running up the lawyers bill! Meanwhile, I took him off my flight privledges (so he can no longer fly for free) and now he is trying to hold me in contempt of court as he filed a cross order after I did about taking me and the children off his insurance (which he threatened to do!)  These are flight privledges and if someone is on a flight and drinks too much or makes even a wierd comment or is loud, I know of employees who have lost their free flights and some who have even been fired. My lawyer wants me to put him back on just because and I say no way!!!!! He will try and do something more to me and that would be just about it!!!!!!   Why should I let him fly for free, when he took away my means of transportation…. I DONT THINK SO!!! Anyway, I don’t look too bad in black and white stripes and I will trust me!!!!! I would cherish the time away from him!!!

Response:

I can not understand why you take all that shit. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

How about????? Blocking you in the bathroom and kitchen under protest…not letting you out until you scream for help. How about???? Throwing coffee mugs and bottles at you How about???? Pushing you down with your body and punching you several times in the arm, back and face. Then forceably having sex with you like an ANIMAL the next night. How about??? Trying to sleep and he would wake me up with his (*&(&**(& trying to put it in while I was asleep!!! and then when I would leave to try to get sleep, he told me I wasnt allowed back in the room until I was ready to have sex with How about???? Forceably taking car keys away from you and telling you you will never drive this car again How about??? Stalking you at work and when he cant find you, driving irratically, knocking down a light pole and getting your car stuck on the cement holder. Then he came to where I work and started screaming at me and that was monitored by a supervisor in a security hallway!!! How about??? Telling your kids, your friends, and your mother you are a whore!!!! He even told the police when I called them that I was having an on going affair!!!! How about??? Taking the circut breaker out of the AC on a 90 degree day and going away for a few days and taking the timer off a whirlpool tub so you cant enjoy a 12 minute soak. How about???? Telling you and your children that you are not doing one more thing in the house until you find out if its yours and allowing the ceiling to fall in in the dining room and not even clean it up or even pick up your dirty underwear in the bathroom or do one dish,etc etc etc. Tonight he even said to me he cant believe I am still here!!!!!! because he told me to get ready for round two…. I may not survive!!!!! How about??? Telling your wife, a stay at home mom for ten years, and his children, that He was the bread winner and I did nothing for ten years but putsy around the house!!! and HOW ABOUT now after ten years of me taking care of the children totally because he worked shifts that all of a sudden now that we are getting divorced…he can get a daylight job????? Told me just wait and see who gets cutody!!!!!! How about??? Daily verbal abuse about how I look when I go to work!!!!! How about??? Him telling my sons I got a lawyer and I am jacking up his bill with what I am I am sorry….I just cant take it anymore…I had to vent here….

Response:

Once again, here’s the Merriam-Webster Dictionary definition of "abuse": Main Entry: abuse      Pronunciation: &-’by

Question:

Norm is not a finish carpenter. I disagree. What about the nail gun, stain-over-smeared-glue, and poly? (I had forgotten the glue-smearing tactic in my 1st post.)

I guess we have different definitions of finish carpenter. In my book it’s the person who works (generally) inside the building putting up baseboard, door & window trim, panelling and molding. And often installing cabinets and built-ins. You will generally see these guys wielding a nail gun, rubbing glue on with a finger tip, and filling holes with putty. There’s usually a second person who slaps on the stain and poly. So what is that that makes Norm _not_ a finish carpenter? The fact that he crams a week-long project into 1/2 hour isn’t relevant. He’s not doing it real time like Roy Underhill and we all know that (right kids?). Bzzzzt! Ask these Normites’ wives. (and probably 1/3 of them)

Well, that’s why Ron Popeil is rich, isn’t it. pays attention now. In the early days he was content with a simple half-blind dovetail jig for all his drawers. He still doesn’t hand-cut them but at least he appreciates the aesthetics of the hand-cut look given by the leigh jig. I must have missed the episode titled "How to fake hand-cut dovies using only $26,745.13 worth of powah tools." (Of course, I’ve only seen 3 or 4 episodes, plus 5-10 minutes of half a dozen others.) I liked him on TOH much better.

Oh come on. The Leigh Dovetail jig costs $370 and the router is around $150. Hardly excessive. And there’s an endorsement there. He’s shown a couple of other dovetail jigs through the years–such as the Keller–but they only ever made one appearance. The Leigh keeps coming back. So I’d say he’s gotten his money’s worth and it makes me think that it’s probably worth spending the money on. Despite what many people think, outside of a few really obvious examples (the 15" planer, the wide belt sander, and the resaw) the NYW really isn’t overly equipped. It probably seems so to the person just starting out, but I’ve seen many hobbyist shops with as much or more equipment in them. –Rick

Response:

This poll has been done here several times. It is about 50/50. I don’t use them either. — CW KC7NOD – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

Response:

Fountain) crayoned this: Sometimes Norm Confuses Me

As well he should. 1/2 hour to do a 2-week project? That’s TV! Repeat after me: Norm is a carpenter. Norm is not a finish carpenter. Norm is not a fine woodworker. Proof of these three facts are shown on every episode: Norm nails, stains, and poly’s the shit out of every project. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t dislike Norm (only some of his practices), I do like many of his projects, and he surely knows more about carpentry than I do. We just have different opinions on what is important in a finished product and how to get there. (Especially nowadays. Out here in LoCal, I couldn’t afford to RUN the multi-megawatt tools he uses.) All about old planes: Electrolysis: http://members.xoom.com/nlindsey/restoration/Restoration.htm Flattening: http://members.aol.com/tomprice/galootp/Quicklap.html Dating Stanley iron planes: http://peta.ee.cornell.edu/~jay/ww/planes/ Stanley (now Patrick’s) Blood and Gore http://www.supertool.com/index.htm — the Stanley Bible The best wood reference site in the entire world is: http://www.internetwoodworking.com/w5/wood.html/

Response:

<<<)))Well, I might use a low quality plywood thinking that with wet and muddy <<<)))stuff being stored inside the seat, it will be inexpensive and easy to <<<)))replace as needed. Yeah, that, or he could be showing that there is a use for all types of wood, and that you can use different materials if it suits you.

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

A.  I always use the splitter when making through cuts. B.  I use the guard (I purchased a Uniguard when I bought my Unisaw) whenever possible.  There are times that it won’t work for various cuts, but the Uniguard is very good about being flipped out of the way and then flipped back in place.

Response:

Sometimes Norm Confuses Me As well he should. 1/2 hour to do a 2-week project? That’s TV! Repeat after me: Norm is a carpenter.

I agree. Norm is not a finish carpenter.

I disagree. Norm is not a fine woodworker.

He’s working on it. Proof of these three facts are shown on every episode: Norm nails, stains, and poly’s the shit out of every project.

Part of the ‘problem’, methinks, is that he approaches his projects just like a professional finish carpenter would rather than luxuriating in the process like a hobbyist or a fine woodworker would. Ever watched a finish carpenter roll through a new house? Air brad nailers and putty are his friend! Outside real high-end houses, no one can afford to take the time to make sliding dovetails to hold moldings and hand-cut dovetails on all four corners of a drawer box. Measure, cut, bam, bam, and move on. Gotta trim out 8 windows and two doors before going home today. The fact that he crams a week-long project into 1/2 hour isn’t relevant. He’s not doing it real time like Roy Underhill and we all know that (right kids?). Most projecte appear to take two days, but how many of us actually put in an 8-hour day in the shop? However, I sometimes wish they’d be a little less honest and at least portray him more like the rest of us. For example–he’s a busy guy and probably really needs the time saved by that wide belt sander. But since 99% of us don’t own one, why don’t they show him hand sanding (or scraping!) the first panel and then he can run the rest through the dust hog off camera. Same with that huge re-saw. It was cool the first time he used it, but on subsequent shows where he needed to resaw a board he should show us a different technique. If it’s slower and more laborious, so what. He starts it on camera and then uses the resaw to finish the rest. The fact is, he could be more like Dean and Robin who have a whole crew of carpenters, plumbers and electricians who actually do most of the work they pretend to. That’s how _they_ finish a 3 month project in three half-hour episodes! Then he wouldn’t feel as remote from us normal joes. That said, I’ve watched the show from the beginning and credit it, more than anything else, with getting me back into woodworking. He _has_ grown considerably as a woodworker since those early days. If anything, in his design sense. He was guilty of some cross-grain glue-ups early on, but he pays attention now. In the early days he was content with a simple half-blind dovetail jig for all his drawers. He still doesn’t hand-cut them but at least he appreciates the aesthetics of the hand-cut look given by the leigh jig. And a few projects he really has made an effort to build it with no brads in visible places. I think he did fairly well on the jewelry box. –Rick

Response:

Norm stopped being a woodworker some time ago, now he sells tools (or creates the "need" to buy them – your choice). Having said that, Norm builds stuff his way, I build stuff mine and you, undoubtedly, build stuff your way. Moral – never ask the donkey what the horse is doing – ask the horse instead. — Jim Warman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sometimes Norm Confuses Me

Response:

Norm is not a finish carpenter. I disagree.

What about the nail gun, stain-over-smeared-glue, and poly? (I had forgotten the glue-smearing tactic in my 1st post.) Norm is not a fine woodworker. He’s working on it.

Perhaps. (see Q above) The fact that he crams a week-long project into 1/2 hour isn’t relevant. He’s not doing it real time like Roy Underhill and we all know that (right kids?).

Bzzzzt! Ask these Normites’ wives. (and probably 1/3 of them) That said, I’ve watched the show from the beginning and credit it, more than anything else, with getting me back into woodworking. He _has_ grown considerably as a woodworker since those early days. If anything, in his

True. Haven’t we all grown in that time? design sense. He was guilty of some cross-grain glue-ups early on, but he pays attention now. In the early days he was content with a simple half-blind dovetail jig for all his drawers. He still doesn’t hand-cut them but at least he appreciates the aesthetics of the hand-cut look given by the leigh jig.

I must have missed the episode titled "How to fake hand-cut dovies using only $26,745.13 worth of powah tools." (Of course, I’ve only seen 3 or 4 episodes, plus 5-10 minutes of half a dozen others.) I liked him on TOH much better. And a few projects he really has made an effort to build it with no brads in visible places. I think he did fairly well on the jewelry box.

1 Atta Boy, going out toward NYWville tonight.  I’ll apologize for offending someone…right after they apologize for being easily offended. http://www.diversify.com  Inoffensive Web Design

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

As a long time lurker on here, to help or hinder the pol, add my vote please. I use neither, Jay BobK

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

I usually keep a "RipStraight" attachment on my fence.  If I’ll be ripping a number of boards I’ll put the splitter back on the saw.  If I looked hard enough I probably could find my blade guard. — Jack Novak Buffalo, NY – USA

Response:

I thought it was funny on todays episode on HGTV while he was building a sailboat and was using bronze screws….all of a sudden he says he ran outa them and will now use stainless steel ones..I mean I know stainless is fine for boats but..but..but—-Norm run outa something in middle of project??????? ps I tape them too..by the way he’s still my hero.. ;0} Steve

That was a pretty startling comment.  He operates out of a 40 gazzilion dollar shop with the best of everything and he ran out of screws???? By the way, was there actually any wood in that sailboat or was it made entirely of epoxy? -JR

Response:

By the way, was there actually any wood in that sailboat or was it made entirely of epoxy?

Well, there’s some wood in between the epoxy plies. Mike.

Response:

[snide mode on] " and a couple of brads to hold it while the glue dries" [snide off] Actually, I do enjoy Norm’s shows.  There is always an idea lurking about and ready to be learned.  Entertainment? Sure.  Why is Norm carried in more places than Roy. Wince?  Sure.  Whenever Norm gets his glue machine and brad nailer out and whenever Roy gets something sharp out.  Lots of good stuff out there.     mahalo,     jo4hn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By the way, was there actually any wood in that sailboat or was it made entirely of epoxy? Well, there’s some wood in between the epoxy plies. Mike.

Response:

While being no Sam Maloof,

Who’s Sam Maloof?

Response:

When Norm is hosting his show, he’s more than just Carpenter Guy — he’s Carpenter Guy Hosting a Do-It-Mostly-Yourself TV Show. I’ve often wondered why he uses different methods to achieve the same result from show to show, and I figured it’s probably to show the viewers — who might not watch every show — varying ways of completing the project. Pocket screws seem more of a pain the the butt than biscuits (for example), but it PC is going to give the show their $700 pocket-screw-cutter-thingie, they probably want him to use it every once in a while. Mark

Response:

Actually, Norms use of epoxy in the sailboat is pretty much standard. A lot of cedar strip canoes and wooden drift boats (flyfishing related) are finished inside and out with West System epoxies…it completely waterproofs and strengthens the boat and wood. And driftboats have sometimes sport UHMW bottoms as well as aluminum chines. Best Regards, Philski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – By the way, was there actually any wood in that sailboat or was it made entirely of epoxy? Well, there’s some wood in between the epoxy plies. Mike.

Response:

I thought it was funny on todays episode on HGTV while he was building a sailboat and was using bronze screws….all of a sudden he says he ran outa them and will now use stainless steel ones..I mean I know stainless is fine for boats but..but..but—-Norm run outa something in middle of project??????? ps I tape them too..by the way he’s still my hero.. ;0} Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sometimes Norm Confuses Me I’ll prefix this with the comment that, when it comes down to it, Norm has far more experience and skill than I have (I’m a hobbiest/hack working my way up to carpenter, hoping to be woodworker at some point). I have taped most of his shows and review them if there was something I wanted to understand better. Some may debate the statement that he is a "Fine Woodworker" or a snip 1. Using a piece of (BC, CD even) plywood for the bottom of the chair "box".  My god.  Norm even comments that it isn’t all that authentic but that he’ll "just paint it".  He spends an entire show recreating an "authentic" piece, including panels, and then shortcuts the bottom.  I know the underside won’t likely be seen, but the inside of the box will often.  There is not advantage of plywood here as it is a loose panel.  Cost wouldn’t be a real issue compared to the overall project.  It almost appears that he ran out of wood or something.  At least he could have used a better piece of ply.  From the large knots it looked like a scrap from the Home Depot CDX pile.

snip snip

Response:

Jerry, You don’t really seem to be "confused" at all! You have used this opportunity to air your two-cents worth. (As well you can). But I am not of the opinion that you have to follow _every_method_ that Norm provides in his presentations. While being no Sam Maloof, Normski does provide some needed entertainment on the Boob Toob where a plethora of Award Shows seem to rule the roost. He must have had to get rid of that last sheet of CDX – but you can always substitute honest-to-goodness wood in it’s place if you so desire. Then you could always change the channel too huh? Here I am responding to a drive-by……. Philski – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sometimes Norm Confuses Me I’ll prefix this with the comment that, when it comes down to it, Norm has far more experience and skill than I have (I’m a hobbiest/hack working my way up to carpenter, hoping to be woodworker at some point). I have taped most of his shows and review them if there was something I wanted to understand better. Some may debate the statement that he is a "Fine Woodworker" or a "Craftsman", but when it comes down to it he does make some nice pieces given the restrictions of his show (time, sponsors, and audience). But, he often does things I find, well, confusing. I was watching his recent episode of the "Hall Seat". http://www.newyankee.com/GetProduct2.cgi?0103 This episode raised a number of questions and refreshed my thoughts on old issues.  Perhaps some would care to comment on my confusion here.  Most are probably design issues. 1. Using a piece of (BC, CD even) plywood for the bottom of the chair "box".  My god.  Norm even comments that it isn’t all that authentic but that he’ll "just paint it".  He spends an entire show recreating an "authentic" piece, including panels, and then shortcuts the bottom.  I know the underside won’t likely be seen, but the inside of the box will often.  There is not advantage of plywood here as it is a loose panel.  Cost wouldn’t be a real issue compared to the overall project.  It almost appears that he ran out of wood or something.  At least he could have used a better piece of ply.  From the large knots it looked like a scrap from the Home Depot CDX pile. I think this was a shortcut that didn’t make ANY sense. 2. His under-arm reinforcement.  He makes a good case for why this needed to be done.  No argument there and he makes good use of it to discuss the use of an inlay set for the router.  Unfortunately, his choice of color and shape were utilitarian to say the least. Couldn’t he have used some ply and then a thin strip of veneer? Perhaps some hardwood plywood?  Both would have gone towards making the reinforcement look less like an afterthought.  On a more stylish note, perhaps using something like a bowtie shape would have looked more traditional than the rectangle he used. The shape is probably being picky, but a better choice in wood tone would be more appropriate (IMHO). 3. The mirror frame.  I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt here a bit as I’m sure he has to keep the tool companies happy. But still, he did the entire piece with M&T joinery, then at the last second pops in with the pocket screws.  I noticed he covered them with another (ugly) sheet of plywood and the whole piece will be against the wall, but it seems a bit gratuitous and diminishes a piece that (with #1 fixed) would have been of heirloom quality (potentially). Finally, one that wasn’t in the Hall Seat show, but still always amazes me. 4. Norm has clamps up the wazzo (something not to be debated), and we all know he sleeps with his brad nailer, but using brads to hold solid wood edging on plywood rather than simply clamping them seems foolish (for non-production shops).  I mean really.  I’m putting the edging on to give a finished appearance to the piece. Why do I want to go and put holes in it which have to be patched and which will show up in the final piece?  Am I missing something other than speed (which isn’t an issue for his show) or product promotion (heck, perhaps Bessey would like to sell some more K-bodies ? Jerry — Jerry Fountain          | Laboratory for Fluid Mechanics, Chaos, and Mixing (847) 491-3555 (Office) | Department of Chemical Engineering (847) 491-3728 (FAX)    | 2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL  60208

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither.

I use neither, either!  And for the past 27 years my digits have remained all mine. In fact the worst cuts have been from chisels, and I don’t think they make a guard for those beasties, do they?  :-)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jerry, You don’t really seem to be "confused" at all! You have used this opportunity to air your two-cents worth. (As well you can). But I am not of the opinion that you have to follow _every_method_ that Norm provides in his presentations. While being no Sam Maloof, Normski does provide some needed entertainment on the Boob Toob where a plethora of Award Shows seem to rule the roost. He must have had to get rid of that last sheet of CDX – but you can always substitute honest-to-goodness wood in it’s place if you so desire. Then you could always change the channel too huh? Here I am responding to a drive-by……. Nope.  I wasn’t trolling.  I guess my word choice of being "confused" related to "just when you think Norm is going the traditional way", he turns 180 degrees and does something like insert a piece of (poor quality) plywood.

Well, I might use a low quality plywood thinking that with wet and muddy stuff being stored inside the seat, it will be inexpensive and easy to replace as needed.

Response:

Frank, please! Let’s take a poll…how many honestly use a splitter and/or guard? I use neither. Jay in NH

Response:

I give credit to Norm getting the wife and I into woodworking. I agree that we cringe when he nails moldings and at the lack of splitter or saw guard.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jerry, You don’t really seem to be "confused" at all! You have used this opportunity to air your two-cents worth. (As well you can). But I am not of the opinion that you have to follow _every_method_ that Norm provides in his presentations. While being no Sam Maloof, Normski does provide some needed entertainment on the Boob Toob where a plethora of Award Shows seem to rule the roost. He must have had to get rid of that last sheet of CDX – but you can always substitute honest-to-goodness wood in it’s place if you so desire. Then you could always change the channel too huh? Here I am responding to a drive-by…….

Nope.  I wasn’t trolling.  I guess my word choice of being "confused" related to "just when you think Norm is going the traditional way", he turns 180 degrees and does something like insert a piece of (poor quality) plywood. I wasn’t trying to get into a discussion of how to follow Norms plans, but rather inquire if anyone could see *what* might have been going through his mind when he did something.  Considering that he does the pieces twice, once for the prototype and once more for video, you would think that some thought and reasoning went into the decisions. Still, I enjoy watching the show, and I still learn things from it.  I guess I’ve learned enough to start questioning things  I didn’t even mention that his explanation for how he was glueing only 2/3 of the panels made any sense, plus the fact that some of his tenons seemed awfully long (but it was quarter-sawn).  Wood movement is something I’m trying to study more (beyond the basic rules that is). Jerry — Jerry Fountain          | Laboratory for Fluid Mechanics, Chaos, and Mixing (847) 491-3555 (Office) | Department of Chemical Engineering (847) 491-3728 (FAX)    | 2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL  60208

Response:

Sometimes Norm Confuses Me I’ll prefix this with the comment that, when it comes down to it, Norm has far more experience and skill than I have (I’m a hobbiest/hack working my way up to carpenter, hoping to be woodworker at some point). I have taped most of his shows and review them if there was something I wanted to understand better. Some may debate the statement that he is a "Fine Woodworker" or a "Craftsman", but when it comes down to it he does make some nice pieces given the restrictions of his show (time, sponsors, and audience). But, he often does things I find, well, confusing. I was watching his recent episode of the "Hall Seat". http://www.newyankee.com/GetProduct2.cgi?0103 This episode raised a number of questions and refreshed my thoughts on old issues.  Perhaps some would care to comment on my confusion here.  Most are probably design issues. 1. Using a piece of (BC, CD even) plywood for the bottom of the chair "box".  My god.  Norm even comments that it isn’t all that authentic but that he’ll "just paint it".  He spends an entire show recreating an "authentic" piece, including panels, and then shortcuts the bottom.  I know the underside won’t likely be seen, but the inside of the box will often.  There is not advantage of plywood here as it is a loose panel.  Cost wouldn’t be a real issue compared to the overall project.  It almost appears that he ran out of wood or something.  At least he could have used a better piece of ply.  From the large knots it looked like a scrap from the Home Depot CDX pile. I think this was a shortcut that didn’t make ANY sense. 2. His under-arm reinforcement.  He makes a good case for why this needed to be done.  No argument there and he makes good use of it to discuss the use of an inlay set for the router.  Unfortunately, his choice of color and shape were utilitarian to say the least. Couldn’t he have used some ply and then a thin strip of veneer? Perhaps some hardwood plywood?  Both would have gone towards making the reinforcement look less like an afterthought.  On a more stylish note, perhaps using something like a bowtie shape would have looked more traditional than the rectangle he used. The shape is probably being picky, but a better choice in wood tone would be more appropriate (IMHO). 3. The mirror frame.  I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt here a bit as I’m sure he has to keep the tool companies happy. But still, he did the entire piece with M&T joinery, then at the last second pops in with the pocket screws.  I noticed he covered them with another (ugly) sheet of plywood and the whole piece will be against the wall, but it seems a bit gratuitous and diminishes a piece that (with #1 fixed) would have been of heirloom quality (potentially). Finally, one that wasn’t in the Hall Seat show, but still always amazes me. 4. Norm has clamps up the wazzo (something not to be debated), and we all know he sleeps with his brad nailer, but using brads to hold solid wood edging on plywood rather than simply clamping them seems foolish (for non-production shops).  I mean really.  I’m putting the edging on to give a finished appearance to the piece. Why do I want to go and put holes in it which have to be patched and which will show up in the final piece?  Am I missing something other than speed (which isn’t an issue for his show) or product promotion (heck, perhaps Bessey would like to sell some more K-bodies ? Jerry — Jerry Fountain          | Laboratory for Fluid Mechanics, Chaos, and Mixing (847) 491-3555 (Office) | Department of Chemical Engineering (847) 491-3728 (FAX)    | 2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL  60208

Response:

Question:

Well, Fang Glow.. JF IS CHAMELEON:         can joe himself         chase felon jim         chinese flo jam         flame johns ice         half mice jones Ano more, much much more here: http://www.ssynth.co.uk/~gay/cgi-bin/nph-anag?line=JF+IS+CHAMELEON&wo… Herman A recent political anagram led me to wonder about what gems might be found in the name of our esteemed fellowship here, so….. So……what can you do with JF IS CHAMELEON? Flogwang

– Cheers, Herman Herman Nijland Daytime webmaster Lifetime flyfisher

Response:

A recent political anagram led me to wonder about what gems might be found in the name of our esteemed fellowship here, so I sent rec.outdoors.fishing.fly through the AnagramGenius server and came up with a few dozen.   Below are a few of the more promising: Actually fishing related: Yourself choosing drift. Fiery goldfish contours. Fools configure this dry. This fly, or so configured. Pertaining to our discussions: Oh God! frictionless fury! Gosh! Fourfold sincerity. Ugh! Cross if too friendly. Richly fruit of goodness! Just for Ken: If Forty, consider ghouls Old grouchiness if Forty And toward the more vulgar: Girlhood courtesy sniff So touchy of girlfriends Icy girlhood suffers not. Greyhounds off clitoris. Curses! off tiny girlhood Here’s the complete list: Shortly if so configured.               Secondly rigorous fifth. Curses! off tiny girlhood.              Stylish or configured of. Hysteric, flooding fours.               Sniff courtesy girlhood. Oh God! frictionless fury.              Shoo firstly configured. Fourthly. Decision frogs.               Roughly considers off it. If cylinders fought or so.              If scrutiny or good flesh. If scrutiny or good shelf.              Ghostly of if so incurred. Confused if rightly or so.              Eighty-four if old scorns. Curses! on fifty girlhood.              Don frights ferociously. Fussy flincher or good it.              Good! rusty flincher if so. If rusty or good flinches.              Ferociously rights fond. Gosh! it officers roundly.              If go considers fourthly. Sly or this configured of.              Ugh! cross if too-friendly. Yourself choosing drift.                If cylinders sought or of. Hiss if currently good of.              Shortly, is configured of. Fiery goldfish contours.                Off this godly recursion. If this glory or confused.              Forged foolish scrutiny. Of if shortly reducing so.              Oh God! stiffly. Recursion. Fourthly if so cringed so.              Stylish, configured roof. Gosh! rod or sufficiently.              Gosh! difficulty or snore. Curse It! of or fondly sigh.            If forty or so scheduling. Rigorously second fifth.                Gosh! if dry counterfoils. Sorry! scheduling if to of.             So cushy of to girl-friend. Good! frostily fine crush.              Good! is rusty flincher of. Chronology it diffusers.                Nightly or off discourse. Off this lousy recording.               This fly or so configured. Of or crudely shifting so.              Forgot cosily furnished. Gosh! fourfold sincerity.               Chronology differs suit. Officers stood hungrily.                Curse It! holy of grinds of. Is not holy drug officers.              Scourged if on if shortly. Shortly scourged if in of.              Fifty or scheduling or so. Oh! firstly configured so.              Is forty of or scheduling. Try suffices on girlhood.               Cosily or found fighters. Cosily frighted on fours.               City suffers on girlhood. Horrendously gift sic of.               Greyhounds off clitoris. Consider if ghostly four.               Rightly officers so undo. Incurred so sightly of of.              Undo or sightly officers. If ford sections roughly.               Of fits roughly consider. Roughly officers in dots.               Roughly if soft consider. Fools or hungry deficits.               Groins if fourthly codes. Of ignores fourthly disc.               Configure or filthy sods. Filthy or configured SOS.               Freshly if good ructions. Honestly or frigid focus.               Fridges if holy contours. Holy drifts configure so.               Hotly. Diffusion grocers. Of gifts hourly consider.               Of considers hourly gift. Hysteric if ground fools.               Hysteric if fool grounds. If choosy intruder flogs.               Choosy if stronger fluid. So touchy of girlfriends.               This loony drug officers. Confused or oily frights.               Fight or rosily confused. Rosily frighted on focus.               Shoo! Grr! sufficiently do. Consider or fifty ghouls.               Stuffy girlhood or since. Ferocity if ground slosh.               Frogs should in ferocity. Fondly if rigorous chest.               Frigidly focus on others. Host or frigidly confuse.               Shot or frigidly confuse. Touch! of snores frigidly.              Of chooses frigidly turn. Of turns frigidly choose.               Of courts frigidly shone. Frigidly or honest focus.               Frigidly confess to hour. Thou or frigidly confess.               Softly if rough consider. If forty ghouls consider.               Fussy or infect girlhood. Tiny officers sold rough.               This young lord officers. Christ! if younger floods.              Ghouls dirty on officers. Roundly sigh to officers.               Good! rosy flinches fruit. Your good first flinches.               Of drifts nicely rough so. Good! nicely or stiff rush.             Good! in this curly offers. Good! is not curly if fresh.            Cosily. Ghost-finder four. Good! crossly if fine hurt.             Icy girlhood suffers not. Roughly if crossed if not.              Fourthly. Frog decisions. Good! freshly if in courts.             Holy if configured sorts. Frogs if holy reductions.               Good! cushy or fine flirts. Good! richly suffers on it.             Honey or difficult gross. Fifty or old grouchiness.               Fright dons ferociously. Good! such fine or firstly.             Oh No! scourged if firstly. Ugh! frostily consider of.              Lofty if rough considers. Lofty, horse-riding focus.              Lofty or configured hiss. Forty if old grouchiness.               If forty ghoul considers. Of or tiny fridges slouch.              Tiny flesh if good cursor. Tiny shelf if good cursor.              Of if tiny grocers should. If youngster’s child or of.             If urgency or this floods. Is not dry ghoul officers.              Gosh! sinful directory of. For if roughly consisted.               Isn’t officers do roughly. Eighty-four if sold scorn.              Fourthly fig so consider. Configure if shortly sod.               God! isn’t hourly officers. If choosy if old grunters.              Is not good, richly suffer. Good! firstly fine chorus.              His configured or softly. Good! furry it flinches so.             Fury or its good flinches. Sociology furthers find.                This dry fools configure. Story if scheduling or of.              Cylinders sought if roof. Is tough or off cylinders.              ’e’s scrutiny off girlhood. SOS! thirdly configure of.              Hydrogen fruits if cools. Do or unsightly officers.               Sift roughly consider of. Hungry officers to idols.               Hungry officers to solid. Coo! dressing if fourthly.              Holy grounds officers it. If of or shortly seducing.              Reducing of or stylish of. Hourly frogs on deficits.               Goodness! richly fruit of. Offerings cloud history.                Offerings could history. Curse It! shy or folding of.            Rosily confused right of. Drench so glorious fifty.               Stuffy girlhood in score. Cries on stuffy girlhood.               Ferocity finds or ghouls. Is friendly, sort-of cough.             Identify or frogs slouch. Glorify or hits confused.               Christ! glorify of undoes.

Response:

A recent political anagram led me to wonder about what gems might be found in the name of our esteemed fellowship here, so…..

So……what can you do with JF IS CHAMELEON? Flogwang

Response:

Question:

Just one other point, a very wise man once said to me when I asked him if something was a good idea " If you have to think very long and very hard about it, and are still not sure, don’t do it".

Excellent point. Right now I’m leaning to getting the horses. It all depends on how my stock options pan out. Money can turn what otherwise would be a terrible idea into an excellent idea.

Response:

<equine opine snipped PS-Stay away from llamas, they are for grass maggot (sheep) herders and a major pain (attitudes).

Spoken like a true Montanan. Welcome, Warren. — Ken Fortenberry

Response:

Vaccinations twice a year are a good idea, and if you have the money (it sounds like you do), vet checks are a good idea. Have the vets come out and worm/vaccinate twice a year, and they’ll spot something early that you might not, especially as a beginner.

And DON’T forget to get a vet check BEFORE you buy a horse.  It can save you a ton of money in the long run.   Vaccinations are a good idea, but not necessary unless the horses are going to come into contact with tons of other horses.  I guess the main reason we don’t is that we have too many and it is easier to treat on an as needed basis. However, for two, better to be safe than sorry is a good philosophy.  It really isn’t that expensive to do it yourself. The key is keeping the vet away unless necessary.  So the more you learn and are able to do, the less reliance you will have on a vet to come out and give shots/worm. Worming is easy, just a tube that shoots out measured amounts of a paste based upon the body weight (you actually set the tube with the weight and it premeasures sort of).  Just have to make sure to get it way back in the mouth so they don’t spit it out. Most stuff is fairly easy and you will pick it up as you go.  It kind of helps you bond with the animal and the animal with you.  I can’t put into words how important the relationship is between a horse and a rider, but it involves lots of trust and patience.  It will eventually turn into a bond that will hopefully last a lifetime. I would also suggest that maybe you start taking riding lessons before you buy horses.  The instructor will be able to teach you many things about horse care and horsemanship that will be invaluable down the road. Warren

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I’m partial to llamas in the backcountry. They can carry 100-120 lbs of gear (but not you), their padded feet are easier on the trails than a horse’s hoofs and they browse and eat their own food instead of grazing on scarce mountain grasses.

Llamas are out of the question. For one thing I need an animal to carry ME for one or two days, not 120 lbs of gear. For another thing, I’d be laughed out of Custer County.

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I’m not, nor will I ever be, an equestrian. But I’ve known enough of them that I’m familiar with some of the potential pitfalls of horse ownership. The best way to sum it up is to say that on a cost/hour basis, horses don’t make much economic sense for the casual fisherman. I realize that boarding costs are highly variable, presumably driven by geography and relative cost of living, but the prospect of shelling out thousands of dollars annually for a couple months’ usage would certainly be a sobering prospect indeed for many of us. Another point to consider: ATV’s are replacing working horses on some ranches (for some jobs). I bet it’s because they’re ‘cheaper to keep’. Good luck.

ATVs aren’t allowed most places I want to go. They don’t even allow mountain bikes. Also, I’m not looking at this as a purely economic deal. I like horses and I like riding them. I’m mainly concerned about the learning curve because I’ve never kept them before.

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Get the horses.  As a matter of fact buy some of my inlaws horses.  I already crash tested one. Seriously, horses are great for hunting and fishing trips.  You won’t need to ship them out to CA for the winter either.  We have over 40 head and keep them outside all winter long up here in Montana. As to feeding. That depends on how much room you have there.  You might get by with grazing them off the pasture if it is big enough and then feeding them hay in the winter.  Hay isn’t all that expensive really.  A horse needs about 2% of its body weight of feed a day.  A 1200 lb horse comes out to a wopping 24 pounds of hay.  Don’t know what the hay prices down there are, but up here it is about $60/ton of good alfalfa. As far as routine medications, just wormer once a year.  Maybe twice a year to be safe.  Want to be even safer?  Worm them or have them wormed before you bring them home.  Shouldn’t have to see a vet at all.  With 40 head we have had the vet out twice this year.  Both horses got caught in a fence.  One while rolling on the ground and got collicky because it was in the fence for several hours overnight and twisted (bad for horses intestines).  The other we think was kicking at a dog and got its legged stuck in a coral panel.  That one was pretty nasty. Try to find a book on horse care and read it for yourself and decide how much hassle it will be for you. Cost wise they are not too bad.  The big pain is in the beginning.  You can find a younger (5-10 year old horse) that is well broke for around $1,500. Then saddles and the other tack, well that depends on new or used.  Make sure you actually sit in the saddle before you buy one.  Ideally you want to sit in it on the horse to get a good feel for it.  Usually can’t though so just make sure you butt isn’t too big (or small).  You won’t need a fancy roping saddle or anything so used you can probably pick one up for about $400-500.  Shop around!  Read the classifieds, check out feed stores (sometimes they have bullentin boards with horses and tack for sale). Being on the high side, look to spend about $6,000 for 2 horses and tack and another $600 or so a year on hay. There are several things you can to do in taking care of horses to make them less at risk for disease, injury, and sickness so arm yourself with knowledge and make the decision afterwards. Happy Trails and Tight Lines. Warren PS-Stay away from llamas, they are for grass maggot (sheep) herders and a major pain (attitudes).

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I’m not, nor will I ever be, an equestrian. But I’ve known enough of them that I’m familiar with some of the potential pitfalls of horse ownership. The best way to sum it up is to say that on a cost/hour basis, horses don’t make much economic sense for the casual fisherman. I realize that boarding costs are highly variable, presumably driven by geography and relative cost of living, but the prospect of shelling out thousands of dollars annually for a couple months’ usage would certainly be a sobering prospect indeed for many of us. Another point to consider: ATV’s are replacing working horses on some ranches (for some jobs). I bet it’s because they’re ‘cheaper to keep’. Good luck. Jeff

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses. I have room for a nice paddock next to my cabin. It’s also a consideration that my older daughter adores horses, and I made the potentially serious mistake of mentioning this idea to her. It’s really, really tempting. The other day, while hiking out from a backcountry lake and sweating blood, a couple of horseback riders passed me going up the trail at a fast trot. They were like gods. It looked so wonderful. My problem is that I have virtually no experience keeping horses. Just a few pack trips. How difficult is it? I’m what you’d call an animal-oriented person. I’ve always had lots of dogs and cats and a multitude of other creatures, but no horses. I figure that at a minimum I’d have to build a fence for the paddock, buy all the gear (in addition to the horses), find a ferrier and a large-animal vet, get a two-horse trailer, and arrange for someone to take care of them for the short periods when I’m not around. Then there’s the question of what to do with them in the winter. I figure I could trailer them back to my home in northern California (Menlo Park) and board them at one of the many stables here. These stables mostly cater to Woodside billionaires, but what the heck. It can’t be that expensive for a few months. Is this a stupid idea? Will I regret it?

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The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses.

I’m partial to llamas in the backcountry. They can carry 100-120 lbs of gear (but not you), their padded feet are easier on the trails than a horse’s hoofs and they browse and eat their own food instead of grazing on scarce mountain grasses. — Ken Fortenberry

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Sounds like a great idea to me. If you have the time and possibilities, and can afford it, do it, but check the prices at those stables etc first, you may be very unpleasantly surprised, also horses involve a lot of care and work, far more than one imagines. Trailering them is also a pain, for you and for the horses. Mountain bikes can be thrown in the cabin or garage when you are done with them, don’t eat, don’t crap, and don’t get ill apart from an occasional broken chain etc. They cost much less than horses, they are less likely to get stolen, or run away, they are not edible to any great degree, and can not be turned into sausage meat, they do not wear extremely costly handmade steel shoes which require frequent replacement,  do not require horrendously expensive injections and medications at regular intervals, and they also require no looking after when you are absent. They do not engender quite as much enthusiasm on the part of dutiful daughters ( dutiful at least until the first ton of horse manure has to be shovelled out of somewhere ! ) I know a couple of the aforementioned daughters ! Their parents own quite a few horses. Quite amazing how often they have "urgent appointments" when the novelty has worn off, and the animals have to be groomed or cleaned out etc etc. If your daughter wants to ride, rent a horse for her for a while until you are certain she will keep it up and it is worth it. I know all this because I help out ( which usually means I shovel horse shit ! ) for the chance of an occasional ride on one of my friends horses. Not trying to dissuade you in any way, just playing advocatus diaboli. Just one other point, a very wise man once said to me when I asked him if something was a good idea " If you have to think very long and very hard about it, and are still not sure, don’t do it". TL MC

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The very best flyfishing in my area (central Idaho) is fairly inaccessible. There are excellent wilderness rivers and backcountry lakes that require some pretty heroic hiking to get to, if you’re not rafting. Once you get there, though, you have it all to yourself, aside from the odd backpacker or two. I’m thinking of getting a couple of horses. I have room for a nice paddock next to my cabin. It’s also a consideration that my older daughter adores horses, and I made the potentially serious mistake of mentioning this idea to her. It’s really, really tempting. The other day, while hiking out from a backcountry lake and sweating blood, a couple of horseback riders passed me going up the trail at a fast trot. They were like gods. It looked so wonderful. My problem is that I have virtually no experience keeping horses. Just a few pack trips. How difficult is it? I’m what you’d call an animal-oriented person. I’ve always had lots of dogs and cats and a multitude of other creatures, but no horses. I figure that at a minimum I’d have to build a fence for the paddock, buy all the gear (in addition to the horses), find a ferrier and a large-animal vet, get a two-horse trailer, and arrange for someone to take care of them for the short periods when I’m not around. Then there’s the question of what to do with them in the winter. I figure I could trailer them back to my home in northern California (Menlo Park) and board them at one of the many stables here. These stables mostly cater to Woodside billionaires, but what the heck. It can’t be that expensive for a few months. Is this a stupid idea? Will I regret it?

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Question:

Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

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Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution?

Nassau, for the three reasons mentioned. — DAVe & Skoshi, ‘69 Stamas 26′ http://personal.mia.bellsouth.net/mia/d/r/drsi/

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Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution?

How ’bout that endless expanse of white sand gliding by just inches below your keel…  Y’know, The Bottom.  Definitely, avoid the bottom.

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I will NEVER go back to Nassau! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? How ’bout that endless expanse of white sand gliding by just inches below your keel…  Y’know, The Bottom.  Definitely, avoid the bottom.

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Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

Nassau for sure!

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The northernmost Abacos seemed a tad dreary… of course it’s all relative; fishermen find Walker’s Cay a piscatorial paradise- scuba & beachcombing too. Norman’s Cay was a smuggling hotspot in the ’80s, but appears to be under control… now pilots fly there for fishing, scuba & gourmet food, not ‘business’.  Bimini & points south ditto. When cruising anywhere truly remote, tho, a bit of disgression is a good idea. Trimtab Does anyone have any place they recommend avoiding in the Bahamas for one reason or another… safety? crowds? pollution? Thanks! Patrick

Before you buy.

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All the places I go

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<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. Good Cruising, 73 — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

You know in all the posts on this subject, nobody has thought to ask our intrepid boater just how fast his houseboat can go.  If he can wring 20kts out of it wihtout straining, it’s only a 2.5 or 3 hour crossing … more than enough time if he waits for the weather.  He can strap a liferaaft to the stern, tank up with gas, turn on his GPS, get out his charts and be in the Bahamas in time for lunch if he starts out at 0830!  The posters talking about leaving at night in order to get to port at the destination in the daylight are talking about doing 5 or 6 kts, not 15 or 20. If he really wants to know, he should take the boat offshore a ways to see how it reacts in ocean swells in the kind of weather he wants to cross in.  If he has trouble, he can head back; if he isn’t intent on crossing, he’ll head back anyway.  You’ll never know until you try it. Colin S.

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There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

Sure there are; and they may have island hopped in good weather to get there.  Or they may have come as deck cargo on a freighter. I’m not trying to rain on your parade; but safety comes first, for both you and your crew. You worked hard all your life to enjoy your retirement.  Don’t become a U.S. Coast Guard statistic. Jim Md.

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Previously in response to a request for info on taking a house boat to the Bahamas someone said: You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.   If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. Good Cruising, 73 — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

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This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel.

I agree that is is silly, if not rude, to tell a prospective motor boater or sailer to "buy an airplane ticket," but I still think that taking a houseboat across the Gulf Stream is, well, not smart.  To cross the stream under the best conditions, one must leave Florida in the evening in order to cross the bar at Bimini or go into the canal at Grand Bahama in daylight (and don’t Bahamas’ customs rules require daylight entry?)  Not all water-borne hazard will be spotted at night, and for an inexperienced captain, large cargo ships can be a real hazard; a flat bottom houseboat is not the vessel for maneouvering in shipping lanes. Also, the weather can never be predicted with the kind of reliability that would allow one to cross the Gulf Stream in a houseboat, particularly in winter, the main crusing time; and again, the deep water passages between the westerly cays and Nassau require better.   That "lake type sailboats" often venture to the Bahamas succesfully is merely an argument by ancedote, and so a dangerous one.  There are many, many, many cruisers anchored (right now!) in Elizabeth Harbor, off Georgetown, who got there on sheer luck alone.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.  Obviously when a norther is blowing against the Stream, or the winter trades are at their best, even well found cruising designs find it wiser to remain in port, but to simply recommend against this voyage under any conditions, is to be out of touch with the reality of what frequently occurs with great success.  Pick your weather, ang go!  With the shoal draft, and large accomodations, a house boat can be a wonderful cruising design for the Bahamas, with the obvious necessity to carry adequate fuel. I agree that is is silly, if not rude, to tell a prospective motor boater or sailer to "buy an airplane ticket," but I still think that taking a houseboat across the Gulf Stream is, well, not smart.  To cross the stream under the best conditions, one must leave Florida in the evening in order to cross the bar at Bimini or go into the canal at Grand Bahama in daylight (and don’t Bahamas’ customs rules require daylight entry?)  Not all water-borne hazard will be spotted at night, and for an inexperienced captain, large cargo ships can be a real hazard; a flat bottom houseboat is not the vessel for maneouvering in shipping lanes. Also, the weather can never be predicted with the kind of reliability that would allow one to cross the Gulf Stream in a houseboat, particularly in winter, the main crusing time; and again, the deep water passages between the westerly cays and Nassau require better. That "lake type sailboats" often venture to the Bahamas succesfully is merely an argument by ancedote, and so a dangerous one.  There are many, many, many cruisers anchored (right now!) in Elizabeth Harbor, off Georgetown, who got there on sheer luck alone.

Another opinion:  A few years ago those of us who made 5 knots or less felt we should cross at night, so that if we missed the Bahamas altogether we would have all day to find the island we were looking for.  With GPS that is no longer necessary.  Easiest crossing is 50 NM from Lake Worth to West End  on Grand Bahama Island.  Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions.  There will be other boats waiting out weather.  Often a group of boats cross together.  It is a comfort to cross with other boats.  The entrance to the marina at West End is tricky.  I have gone in there at least ten times, and I still worry about it. From West End on around as far as Little Harbor there are short hops and numerous anchorages.  I don’t recommend the stretch from Little Harbor to Eleuthera in a houseboat. I haven’t hear of a restriction on entering the Bahamas at night.  Go in and either anchor or dock, raise the yellow "Q" flag and don’t get off the boat until Customs arrives.

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Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions. If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

Yes, sometimes the window is only about 4 hours from the time the wind picks up from the west (almost *always* in advance of a cold front) to the time it swings around to a 30 knot+ northerly gale.  Against the fast north- flowing Gulf Stream, the sea conditions become unbelievably bad with any breeze from the north. I’d ship the houseboat if I were you.  The Bahama banks would be a wonderful place for a boat like that, but getting it there across the Gulf Stream is quite a big risk. Dan

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 This is a case of advice that is misguided, and when one generalizes with "Never", they are failing to consider that numerous "lake" type vessels have made quite successful voyages to and through the Bahamas, simply by selecting the weather conditions appropriate to their vessel.

I said never and I meant never.  Houseboats are not designed for offshore work under any circumstances.  Talking about ideal wind and sea conditions is nonsense.  We are not explorers, we are pleasure boaters;   and there is no reason to place any person aboard in danger with a vessel which can only operate in ideal wind and sea conditions. The insurance companies share this view, I believe. Ask what the premium increase will be for a houseboat taken offshore.   Jim Md.

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Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions.

If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

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Anchor in Lake Worth until you are sure of settled weather with wind from the west.  I have waited as long as 10 days for the right conditions. If the wind is out of the west, ahead of a cold front, wouldn’t you expect it to clock through NW then North as the front passes?  Not a good time to be in the stream. John L. Miller

Absolutely true! An Irwin 45 named "Sandy Lanes" that took off ahead of me in the westerlies before a strong cold front, wound up being driven ashore on the west side of Gun Cay! I waited until after the front passed when light southerlies began to blow and had no problem. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

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One of the respondents to Horace’ query stated: : You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be : taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but : fortunately, I’m not. : : If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. Depends on the houseboat, doesn’t it?  For shoal water cruising, a smaller houseboat, with less draft, would be far more appropriate than many of the offshore keelboats currently pussyfooting around the banks. Even a craft as large as Horace’s houseboat would be vastly preferable to a similar sized keelboat, if one wanted to follow the barrier reef down Andros Is. On the other hand, a craft as well-powered as Horace’s houseboat shouldn’t have problems finding an appropriate window of time, in which to cross the Straits of Florida safely. He’ll probably have greater problems finding a mooring at port of entry (grin). If I did it, I’d want a smaller boat with less than 2′ of draft, even if it were substantially slower.  But hell, if you’ve got the boat, and the desire (and the money)… Go for it, Horace! It should be a real adventure! Good Cruising, —      Bob Martin

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The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ?

You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. YOu should keep that nice houseboat in sheltered waters.  And there are plenty of sheltered waters that are perfect for you.  How about the ICW from New England to Fla?  How about the Erie Canal, the nicest fresh water cruise on the planet?  How about the Mighty Mississipp? Good Luck. Jim Md.

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You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket.

There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ed: I’m in the process of rebuilding, from the hull up, a 60ft houseboat with the ultimate purpose of curising to the Bahamas from the closest point in Florida when I retire in six years. I’ve talked to a couple of people who say this is possible, if I pick the right time of year and watch the weather carefully. The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ?

There was a rig which moored in Daytona Beach for a while.  On a small river barge type hull was a white frame building with a sign "Marine Research Laboratory" (It allowed anchoring in places where people might otherwise object.)  Around the perimeter of the barge were trailer hitch balls.  The owner supposedly took it to the Bahamas using a "tug" consisting of an open runabout with a large outboard.  He had a short tower frame on the tug with another trailer hitch ball and an A-frame with three female hitchs on the corners.  By repositioning the frame he could pull, push, or run along side.  He did spend some time waiting for just the right weather conditions. I think your houseboat is several cuts above this in surviveability, but yes, the word crazy does come to mind.  Crazy is fine as long as you don’t expect someone else to bail you out. Roger —

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You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there.

I second that!  A houseboat on the Gulf Stream is courting suicide, and there ARE some deep water passages to be made within the archipelago. Don’t do it, especially as a novice. Go, but with a good keel and skeg beneath you.

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You’re pushing the envelope friend.  In no case should a houseboat be taken offshore.  I might try it if I was a Haitian boat person; but fortunately, I’m not. If you want to go to the Bahamas, buy an airline ticket. There are houseboats in the Virgin Islands and I’m sure they weren’t built there. — J.A. Rogers Sailaway Cruising Club http://www.cqws.com/zone1/sailaway/

There might be places that you could go through once you are there.  I think a lot of large freight (cars etc) go by local freighters.  That approach should get your boat there. I crossed the Gulf stream with a perfect forcast.  By the time I was 2 hours out, I was seeing the worst continuous conditions that I had ever seen in 30 years of sailing. We are all masters of our vessels despite what anyone says.  I would give this all little thought though. Hans Paabor Rocinante I Scarborough, Ontario With great power comes great responsiblity (Spiderman)

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I mentally swapped the critical specs of your houseboat and was thinking it draws 22” and has 42” of freeboard when I wrote advising you to Go For It! Considering you have almost no spare freeboard and are a bit deeper than I believed, I should qualify my answer: You probably should not go in winter, when the weather is quite changeable (and the forecasts are therefore less reliable). Keeping in mind that safe anchorages may sometimes be 30-40 miles (i.e.four-six hours) apart, if the wind springs up suddenly the resulting sea might be too much for your boat. The Banks can develop a very steep chop. I don’t know how well houseboats drive into head seas but I suspect, not too well. You should find out first-hand before going. Dead calm conditions are, I’m told,  common in late spring and summer (save for the odd hurricane, but that’s another story).  At any rate, take a liferaft or Whaler type dinghy and a handheld VHF. And, of course, insure the vessel. Byron

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If anyone is contemplating cruising in Bahamas, I may be able to help. While I have not been to each cay, I have cruised throughout the island nation, from Walker’s Cay on the north to Long Island in the southern region. This year I am going south thru southernmost Bahamas to Turks & Caicos, despite news of major drug running and politicians’ alleged

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Ed: I’m in the process of rebuilding, from the hull up, a 60ft houseboat with the ultimate purpose of curising to the Bahamas from the closest point in Florida when I retire in six years. I’ve talked to a couple of people who say this is possible, if I pick the right time of year and watch the weather carefully. The boat is 60×14 with 22" of freeboard and a 42" draft. She has twin 228HP MercCruser outdrives and a fuel capacity of 175 Gals. Cruise speed at 1500RPM is about 8 knots with 21 knots at full speed. I plan to install Radar and GPS before the trip. Am I crazy or do you think this is possible ? What would you recommend ? Thanks Ron Brown

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If anyone is contemplating cruising in Bahamas, I may be able to help. region. This year I am going south thru southernmost Bahamas to Turks & Caicos, despite news of major drug running and politicians’ alleged

In 16 years cruising in the Bahamas, drug running and politicians have been the least of my worries or problems.  They are simply not an issue for the average cruiser, and there are fewer drugs to encounter in the islands than on your average midtown street corner back in the states. Just returned from a fast passage from Ft. Lauderdale to Provo, (T&C), and the only problems encountered were related to the vessel, rather than politics or recreational pharmacy products. Good Sailing, 73,  Sean — Sean Holland NP2AU S/V Spindrift

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Go for it! Weather is key but the crossing from Miami to Gun Cay or Bimini should only take you a few hours (it’s 50nm or thereabouts). You will want to cross during a period of winds <12kts out of a southerly quadrant. You should experience chop no more than a foot or two over an easy swell. We spent a winter cruising the Bahamas in a 36′ sailboat. So long as you pick your weather carefully and hole up in one of the many protected anchorages during frontal passages, you should have no problem. Additionally, your shoal draft will open up many anchorages denied sailboats. So you should be able to avoid any unpleasantness. I would urge you to buy a short-wave receiver like the Grundig Yacht Boy 400 to get USCG weathercasts on NMN and to tune into the Bahamas marine net, as well as the big picture weather outlook from "Herb" on 12.359 at 2000 UCT. You may have to be very patient to get favorable conditions for operating in the NW Providence Channel; if it’s wintertime, you probably don’t want to operate in the northern half of the Bahamas (Abacos) as they get some very nasty weather indeed. Good luck! Byron Westerly ketch "Vela"

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Question:

Anyone out there heard of a good trailing shuck imitation.  In jams, I’ve used panty-hose, and of course z-lon when tying.

Aunt Lydia’s rug and craft yarn.

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Anyone out there heard of a good trailing shuck imitation.  In jams, I’ve used panty-hose, and of course z-lon when tying.  I want something a little better. Any suggestions? Thanks- J W Kramer @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@   "See Dick fly-fish.    See Dick catch fish.    See Dick kill fish."           DON’T BE A DICK!  PRACTICE AND TEACH CATCH AND RELEASE @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ @@@@

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Question:

[...] The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_.

Not quite true.  There is also Salmo salar, the atlantic salmon which is actually a trout (at least the last time I looked – it may have been reclassified since…) Regards, John — Dr. John Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility

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  <snip a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins,   <snip

I have caught and also seen photographs of brown trout having white (or at least cream-colored) leading edges on some of their fins.  I don’t recall seeing this on the pectoral fins. August K. Watercolor Fish Art http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk

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Brook trout are charr, not trout — James R. Babb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –    Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?                    thanks.

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[...] The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_. Not quite true.  There is also Salmo salar, the atlantic salmon which is actually a trout (at least the last time I looked – it may have been reclassified since…) Regards, John — Dr. John Hardie Indiana University Cyclotron Facility

To every one who is watching this thread: Do you think the fish know this?  I hope the brookie’s ego doesn’t get bruised.  So let me get this: some trout and  salmon are really char, but there is a salmon that is really a trout.  White wine from red grapes is called blush, Tomatoes are fruit, but ketchup is a vegetable,  peanuts aren’t nuts or peas.  We park in a driveway and drive on a parkway. Class dismissed! all kidding aside, thanks for the info, this is why NG’s are here so we can learn something and have some fun at it.  

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I note Robert that you are from Maine and commented on brook trout. I am an outdoors columnist in Canada, and am curious about two subspecies of rare trout. One I believe exists in Maine. Do you have any info. on this? I ask because I am interested in trout and enjoy catching (primarily release most) unusual or rare strains.

Is it safe to presume that you’re referring to Blueback trout? Actuaally another artic char subspecies – and a rare if not endangered one, for sure. Or perhaps the Sunapee Golden trout (actually Yet Another Rare Artic Char – Salvilinus alpinus oquassa)? btw: Being a neighbor to our north, are you familiar with the Red Trout – which is native to Quebec – and another member of the Salvilinus alpinus group? I believe all three of these fish are described as "relics" today… Cheers! /dave <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< < Digital Equipment Corp.       Alpha Server Engineering < < Parker Street Campus            Maynard, Massachusetts   < <        Charter Member of "Curmudgeons Unlimited"       < <<<<<<<<<<<< AMA 548313 <<<<<<<<<<<< Disclaimer: Opinion and content is mine alone, and unlikely             to be shared by my employer, etc…

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Thanks, John, for starting such an interesting thread on the truth about Brookies… I’d like to suggest that everyone interested in the origins, history, genetic makeup of our favorite fish, read a new book by ichthyologist Nick Karas entitled, appropriately,  BROOK TROUT. It is being published by Lyons & Burford and should be in stores in late March/early April. Email me if you have any questions…  Krista

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If Brookies aren’t trout, they’re doing a damn fine imitation. Anglerboy

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The bull trout and Dolly Varden, which are char, also have the white tipped fins.

So do some strains of rainbows. Though not the hatchery trout I see. John Nesselrode Shawnee, KS

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   Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?                    thanks.

Brookies aren’t trout … they’re char.

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their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing. The bull trout and Dolly Varden, which are char, also have the white tipped fins. -Burton

In Scotland our native Arctic Char have the beautiful white outline too. Just Pete Marrow   work:  http://www.gsrg.nmh.ac.uk/   play:  http://www.gorp.com/gorp/activity/scottish_ff_faq.htm

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In article    Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Systematic taxonomists classify the fish we know as "brook trout" as belonging to the genus _Salvelinus_ (the chars) and not _Salmo_ (the trouts).  The "lake trout" is also a char, but for some reason the popular name of the "Arctic char" (_Salvelinus alpinus_) recognizes that this fish is indeed a char.  There are minor differences between chars and trouts, which are usually of interest only to fisheries scientists.  The clearest visible difference between chars and trouts is that char have lighter-colored spots on a darker-background body, while trout have dark spots on a lighter body.  Scientific names and classifications shift and change; you probably know that the rainbow trout, long considered a true trout (_Salmo_) was reclassified several years ago and placed among the Pacific salmon (_Oncorhyncus_).  But this reclassification didn’t cause rainbow trout to immediately die after spawning, like all their brethren in _Oncorhynchus_.  A wild, native brook trout is a wonderful creature, no matter what name we give it. Woods Hole, MA   USA

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Brook trout are not true trouts! They are a member of the char family so they are actually the small cousins of lake trout, artic char and dolly varden.   But enough of genetic, they’re great pan fried!                                      Leif da Lucky

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I note Robert that you are from Maine and commented on brook trout. I am an outdoors columnist in Canada, and am curious about two subspecies of rare trout. One I believe exists in Maine. Do you have any info. on this? I ask because I am interested in trout and enjoy catching (primarily release most) unusual or rare strains. Tight Lines Don Stokes Outdoors Columnist

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In article       Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? Systematic taxonomists classify the fish we know as "brook trout" as belonging to the genus _Salvelinus_ (the chars) and not _Salmo_ (the trouts).  The "lake trout" is also a char, but for some reason the popular name of the "Arctic char" (_Salvelinus alpinus_) recognizes that this fish is indeed a char.  There are minor differences between chars and trouts, which are usually of interest only to fisheries scientists.  The clearest visible difference between chars and trouts is that char have lighter-colored spots on a darker-background body, while trout have dark spots on a lighter body.  Scientific names and classifications shift and change; you probably know that the rainbow trout, long considered a true trout (_Salmo_) was reclassified several years ago and placed among the Pacific salmon (_Oncorhyncus_).  But this reclassification didn’t cause rainbow trout to immediately die after spawning, like all their brethren in _Oncorhynchus_.  A wild, native brook trout is a wonderful creature, no matter what name we give it. Woods Hole, MA   USA

Hi Bob Great bit of information. I hope you don’t mind if I save it for future reference. Good Tying &…. — Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT http://www.flyshop.com/Expo/Specialty/BTsPdcts/index.html

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: :         Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried : to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have : an opinion on this? : :                         thanks. : We tend to generically treat them as trout, however they are char.  Char are : distinguished by the white at the tips of their fins. I believe they real difference is in the dentition.  Char have teeth on their tongues and true trout (salmo) don’t.  At least I believe thats where the teeth differ. — Isaac(Ike) B. Wilder That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

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: John, : Best to concede early on this one.  Brook trout are not truly trout, but : rather char.  All fall under the family heading of salmonid and then brook : trout fall in the salvelinus genus, rainbows in the oncorhynchus genus and When did rainbows get reclassified?   I would find placing them in the oncorhyncus genus very difficult.  Their physiology is very differnt as well as physical characteristics.  Was this done based on molecular genetics? : browns in the salmo genus. The practical distinction is that char have : light spots on a dark background.  There are skull structure differences. : Char scales are especially tiny in comparison as well.  Hope this helps. : James Ehlers : Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service : Underhill, VT — Isaac(Ike) B. Wilder That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : :         Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried : to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout.  Does anyone have : an opinion on this? : :                         thanks. : We tend to generically treat them as trout, however they are char.  Char are : distinguished by the white at the tips of their fins. I believe they real difference is in the dentition.  Char have teeth on their tongues and true trout (salmo) don’t.  At least I believe that’s where the teeth differ.

Colour is more visible, but teeth are more reliable.  Char (or equally correctly charr) have only a few teeth on the front of the vomer (broadly speaking the palate), and trout have a full set of vomerine teeth. Generally, charr have light spots, and trout have dark spots. I owe these tidbits to Calabi’s "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Fly-Fishing."

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In article    Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Technically, your friend is right.  The brook trout is a char, genus -salvelinus- .  The other members of this genus are the lake trout, dolly varden, bull trout, arctic char, and European char.  The whole issue of what’s a true trout has recently been stirred up by biologists who have reclassified the rainbow, cutthroat, and golden trout into the genus _oncorrhyncus_ with the Pacific salmon (chinook, coho, chum, et al).  The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_.      On the other hand, who cares?  The members of the genera salvelinus, salmo, and oncorrhyncus resemble each other closely in general morphology.  If common usage makes brookies, lakers, dollies, bulls, ‘bows, cutts, and brownies all trout, that’s fine with me.  –Roger

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*  The only unquestionably true, authentic, genuine trout is the brown, _salmo trutta_.      Actually, the Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar, also belongs to the same genus as the brown trout.  Just thought I’d add a little more confusion to everyone’s day. el coyotero

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? John: Don’t think it’s a matter of opinon, as the other more technical minded responder wrote, they are a char. So, if my recollection is correct, is a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing. Cheers TB

//snip TGB, you’re right regarding Brook trout and lake trout belonging to the char family (salvelinus). Other north american char are bull trout, dolly varden, sunapee, siscowet and – arctic char. All char species have light spots and light bands on their bottom fins; the coloration is more or less pronounced and varies from white (e.g. arctic char) to pale pink  (e.g. dolly varden) and yellowish (e.g. lake trout), depending on the species. /Tord

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        Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

John: Don’t think it’s a matter of opinon, as the other more technical minded responder wrote, they are a char. So, if my recollection is correct, is a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing. Cheers TB The workings of great institutions is mainly the result of a vast mass of routine, petty malice, self-interest, carelessness, and sheer mistake. Only a residual fraction is thought." Santayana

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this? John: Don’t think it’s a matter of opinon, as the other more technical minded responder wrote, they are a char. So, if my recollection is correct, is a lake trout. I was under the impression that the tell-tale sign of their chardom is the white band on the bottom of their bottom fins, though I don’t know if other char have this too; would be interested in hearing.

The bull trout and Dolly Varden, which are char, also have the white tipped fins. -Burton

Response:

        Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?                         thanks.

We tend to generically treat them as trout, however they are char.  Char are distinguished by the white at the tips of their fins. -Burton

Response:

        Excuse my ignorance, but a friend of mine is convinced, and tried to convince me, that Brook Trout aren’t actually trout. Does anyone have an opinion on this?                         thanks.

Response:

John, Best to concede early on this one.  Brook trout are not truly trout, but rather char.  All fall under the family heading of salmonid and then brook trout fall in the salvelinus genus, rainbows in the oncorhynchus genus and browns in the salmo genus. The practical distinction is that char have light spots on a dark background.  There are skull structure differences. Char scales are especially tiny in comparison as well.  Hope this helps. James Ehlers Uncle Jammer’s Guide Service Underhill, VT

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Question:

It’s pretty sad when the first post to a new group, fly tying, is SPAM. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The FISHING LOG is a Powerful Software Program for Windows  It tracks every aspect of your fishing trips/sessions in great detail. It is colorful, extremely powerful and very user friendly. Keeps track of just about anything you can think of in Fresh Water or Salt. It is a large program of research quality but you can just keep up the sections YOU wish. Export data to other programs for analysis, printing  and charting. The best part is that if you download it yourself it is FREE. Mind that the last characters in the WWW address are all UPPERCASE!                 Bob Sheedy                Master Angler http://www.mbnet.mb.ca/~sheedyr/FISHING.HTM

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The FISHING LOG is a Powerful Software Program for Windows  It tracks every aspect of your fishing trips/sessions in great detail. It is colorful, extremely powerful and very user friendly. Keeps track of just about anything you can think of in Fresh Water or Salt. It is a large program of research quality but you can just keep up the sections YOU wish. Export data to other programs for analysis, printing  and charting. The best part is that if you download it yourself it is FREE. Mind that the last characters in the WWW address are all UPPERCASE!                  Bob Sheedy                 Master Angler http://www.mbnet.mb.ca/~sheedyr/FISHING.HTM

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Question:

I’m planning to drive up from L.A. to spend a couple of days fishing the Owens.  Would appreciate any help regarding good places to fish, patterns, etc.   David Sheffield

Response:

I’m planning to drive up from L.A. to spend a couple of days fishing the Owens.  Would appreciate any help regarding good places to fish, patterns, etc.   David Sheffield

You should pick up a current copy of California Fly Fisher at your local fly shop.  There is a good article with all this info. The gist of it:  try #14-16 nymphs (pheasant tails, hare’s ears, etc), wooly buggers, and have some small caddis and midge dries too.  Fish anywhere between Pleasant Valley Rreservoir and Bishop. Use a long tippet and drift it downstream as the trout are line wary. Fish the undercuts and riffles as well as the pools where the fish are more obvious. Mark Vinsel http://www.lanminds.com/local/vinnie/gallery.html

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Question:

Just my $0.02, but I tend to agree with clyde.  K-mart sells a $30- starter outfit.  I don’t like to go that cheap, but I have no problem with some of the next step up.  I recomend an 8′ 6wt for starters.  That will fish the smallest brookie and still land some big salmon.  I recomend Cabellas for some great deals too.  I just bought an IM6 graphite pack rod, 8′ 5wt 4pc, with an excellent reel for 49.95 total.  The reel seet is kind of cheap, and the rod has a very soft action (which I tend to prefer anyway), but it’s a nice package.  Good luck, and don’t get caught up in the snobbery of fly fishing.  Remember, the fish has no idea what you paid for your equipment.

Reminds me of the story about the guy who went to the fishing show and was cruising all the lure vendors’ displays.  He stops by a particularly bright display – full of neon colored plastic and sparkling lures.  He asks the guy behind the counter, "So do the fish like these?" pointing to the display.  "Dunno," says the vendor.  "We don’t sell ‘em to the fish." Joe G.

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I fished for 8 years now, mostly spin-cast.  I never once fly fish before and I want to take up the art of fly fishing.  To begin I want to ask a few questions:         1.  If I want to fish for trout and salmon but I only want one             rod, what size of rod should I get?         2.  What’s a good rod for a beginner (should I get something             cheap and upgrade later or start with a expensive gear)?         3.  Should I start with a float line or a sink line?         4.  What’s a good beginner fly pattern(s)?         5.  What’s else do I need to know?         6.  Is there a newsgroup for fly fishing? Thanks in advance for all replies. R.Ng

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I fished for 8 years now, mostly spin-cast.  I never once fly fish before and I want to take up the art of fly fishing.  To begin I want to ask a few questions:         1.  If I want to fish for trout and salmon but I only want one             rod, what size of rod should I get?

        not really a good idea … for salmon you should have a big rod,          like a 9wt, but just for "normal" fishing go with a smaller rod.         2.  What’s a good rod for a beginner (should I get something             cheap and upgrade later or start with a expensive gear)?

        dont get cheap stuff …. i get my spinning stuff from k-mart,        but you need quality rods to fly cast right $120 for rod and reel        beginner set….         3.  Should I start with a float line or a sink line?

        for starters definitly a floating line         4.  What’s a good beginner fly pattern(s)?

         get a fly book … "all of um.."         5.  What’s else do I need to know?

         what fish are you going for ? .. hatches … the meaning of life.         6.  Is there a newsgroup for fly fishing?

         no ,(i least i dont know about it), but there is  listserv mail          group, which i recommend …(i’m in it) .. 30-50 messages daily ! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks in advance for all replies.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –         1.  If I want to fish for trout and salmon but I only want one             rod, what size of rod should I get?    I’ve used $15 8′ fly rods for years that I’ve bought at K-mart and other dept. stores – they work.  I might not be able to cast as far or as easily as others out here with their expensive equipment but I bet I have just as much fun!  I do suggest getting a half decent reel.  I bought a "cheap" one ($20) for my wife at K-mart,  she doesn’t mind but it just doesn’t feel right to me. (Probably sp? I’d say the same about my cheap rods if I had ever used some of the more expensive models. )         2.  What’s a good rod for a beginner (should I get something             cheap and upgrade later or start with a expensive gear)?         3.  Should I start with a float line or a sink line?    I use 8′ to 9′ graphite composite rods that recommend 6 or 7 wt line.   I usually fish for trout and salmon, but also use it for bass and panfish.  I fish with floating line and have used dry, wet and streamers for flies.         4.  What’s a good beginner fly pattern(s)?    Go to a local fly shop of the area that you are going to fish for effective patterns.  Also the list of Flies that has been on this list is a very good start. Others:  I do not intend to start a flame war about cheap and expensive equipment.  I use the cheap stuff because that’s what I can afford.  And it works well.  I apologize if I offend anyone by using low quality equipment.   But the price and quality isn’t what fishing is about – catching fish and enjoying yourself is and that’s what I do. (Flame suit on…. -Clyde -Clyde W. Watson                                Cabletron Systems, Inc.  603-337-3133 voice                             Rochester, NH 03867  603-337- 3075 fax                              

Just my $0.02, but I tend to agree with clyde.  K-mart sells a $30- starter outfit.  I don’t like to go that cheap, but I have no problem with some of the next step up.  I recomend an 8′ 6wt for starters.  That will fish the smallest brookie and still land some big salmon.  I recomend Cabellas for some great deals too.  I just bought an IM6 graphite pack rod, 8′ 5wt 4pc, with an excellent reel for 49.95 total.  The reel seet is kind of cheap, and the rod has a very soft action (which I tend to prefer anyway), but it’s a nice package.  Good luck, and don’t get caught up in the snobbery of fly fishing.  Remember, the fish has no idea what you paid for your equipment.                 Lenny Bloksberg

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