Question:

Congratulations Dave

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BTW: When replying to Codmarines posts we should use something other than "[snip]" to indicate we shortened the message

Auuuughhh! — Michael Era

Question:

Does anyone know of an island with good fly fishing in the Caribbean? I’m specifically talking about the Eastern Caribbean, the islands they call the Lesser Antilles. My wife wants to go on vacation there, and I’m trying to figure out what I’m going to do while she lies on the beach… Thanks for any help. Simon Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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The Virgin Islands have a few flats. St John is actually very nice is many ways. You have to be careful though. I was held up at gun point in St Thomas last year when fishing probably the best flat which is off a beach that only locals go to. St John does not have that problem and is mostly a national park. I. Clair

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Question:

Hi,     I’m a newbie to this group, so please bare with me.  I have been going to school at Vanderbilt University in Nashville for 4 years now and for one reason or another have never tried fly fishing in Tennessee.  I’m from Texas where I fish saltwater often, but I can probably count the times I’ve gone fly fishing in the past 5 years on one hand.  Like many beginners, I spent no more than $100 bucks on rod, reel, and line combined.  After a relatively unsuccessful trip to the Frio river in the Texas hill country, I realized that I might have been missing out on some pretty decent fishing in East Tennessee.  I know the basics of the sport and what it entails, but there is so much more for me to learn.  If anyone out there is willing to help me out, some advice on the following things would be greatly appreciated:     1)  where in eastern Tennessee to fish     2)  what tackle works best for the fish here (fly line, leaders, tippet, flies,          fly sizes, etc.)     3)  recommended fly-casting teachers (I’m O.K., but could definitely use some help)     4)  outfitters in the Nashville area     5)  books/videos on fly fishing and fly tying     5)  anything else that would be helpful Thanks,     Tyler McAfee

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If anyone out there is willing to help me out, some advice on the following things would be greatly appreciated:    1)  where in eastern Tennessee to fish    2)  what tackle works best for the fish here (fly line, leaders, tippet, flies,          fly sizes, etc.)    3)  recommended fly-casting teachers (I’m O.K., but could definitely use some help)    4)  outfitters in the Nashville area    5)  books/videos on fly fishing and fly tying    5)  anything else that would be helpful

Waters…within close proximity to you,,,the Clinch, the Hiwassee, the Tellico WMA, the Smokies….the Holston, Tailwaters a 5wt is nice. Teachers and outfitters, right next to your school, the West End Transit Company on West End Avenue, nice fly shop in back, with a member of the newsgroup working there on Fridays, Jack Schmitt (I hope I got that right)., Active TN TU chapters are a good place to start. The TN TU chapter even put out a small booklet of maps on the TN trout streams. theres another outfitter nearby, combination gun and tackle shop but the name escapes me right now. But go see Jack, he’s a good guy and won’t steer you wrong. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

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Hi Wayne, I appreciate the kind remarks. The shop is Cumberland Transit and is next to Vanderbilt. Due to circumstances, I will be in the shop irregularly over the next 2 months. My wife and I plan to travel the West. Jim Mauries from Colorado is there full-time and will be glad to help if I am not there. Best wishes and tight lines. Jack.

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writes: The shop is Cumberland Transit and is

Sorry Jack, brain fart. have fun out west. Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

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I’m a newbie to this group, so please bare with me.                                            ^^^^ No thanks.

Saving yourself for T-Bone (just kidding Jimbo-really) Wayne Knight (remove nospam to respond via mail) Expert in the creation of  wind knots and tailing loops.

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X-no-archive: yes     I’m a newbie to this group, so please bare with me.                                            ^^^^ No thanks.

        good god.  the first inkling of humor in your roff life.  this may be a memorable occasion. wayno – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Question:

For much of the past decade my family and I have vacationed in North- Central New Mexico (Santa Fe/Taos area). … Historically they’ve been wonderful, since few people fished them.  But that seems to have changed…

I’ll confess to being part of the problem. We were in Taos for a week last October and found it a wonderful vacation spot both for me and my flyfishing and Kristine and her shopping/photography. I was able to find solitude, in October, the further I got from the "Enchanted Circle", FWIW. — Ken Fortenberry

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For much of the past decade my family and I have vacationed in North- Central New Mexico (Santa Fe/Taos area).  It always seemed to offer something for everyone…culture and restaurants for my wife, fishing and hiking for me.  I returned last week after an absence of 3 years and couldn’t believe the increase in fishing pressure and resulting reduction in fishing quality. Exhibit 1 — an small, alpine tailwater (maybe 60 cfm)with a nice population of cuts.  Catch and release.  Fished it three years ago, in the prime water on a WEEKEND, and saw one other rod all day.  Last week, on a Tuesday, had to scramble to find a stretch to fish.  At least 10 other rods on a 1.5 mile stretch. Exhibit 2 — a tiny mountain stream, 2 hour drive from anywhere. Walked in and got no hits.  Started moving quickly, and eventually ran into a fisherman.  I’d been fishing in his wake.  Walked another half mile, same problem.  Eventually had to drive a mile downstream, and walk another mile to get onto virgin water, then had a reasonable time. Unlike streams in places like Montana (or even the San Juan), the streams in North-Central NM are generally so small that they can’t support very much pressure.  Historically they’ve been wonderful, since few people fished them.  But that seems to have changed… Michael — www.geocities.com/yosemite/falls/3363 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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Question:

Beginning angler, need advice: What would be best live/artificial Baits to catch Catfish & Bass? What should be the best locations in the streams (no current, fast current, ponds, depths, etc…) where Catfish or Bass are concentrated? Thank you very much indeed.

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Brian, I haven’t done alot of catfishing but I ran across a guy the other day and he said he uses a product called junnies (do a search on the web). he said he bought the stuff off the internet and that a catfish guide told him about it he stated that the guide had the maker come fishing with him and they caught 10 to 1 (maker vs. guide). I do alot of creek fishing and catch alot of bass. I use a lure by rebel called a creek hopper. On a good day I catch and relese about 30 (1/2lb to 1 1/2lds) bass and no telling how many sunfish. you can also check: <A HREF="http:www.tn-outdoors.comtn-outdoors.com</A for other fishing and hunting articles. happy fishing Larry

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I have found that a ball of chicken liver on a medium size treble hook works well in most situations. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Beginning angler, need advice: What would be best live/artificial Baits to catch Catfish & Bass? What should be the best locations in the streams (no current, fast current, ponds, depths, etc…) where Catfish or Bass are concentrated? Thank you very much indeed.

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I have a question:  how do you get the chicken livers to stay on the hook.  I got some fresh chicken livers to use for bait and they were the consistancy of mush.  I would have had a better chance of trying to put grape jelly on the hook.  I have heard you can freeze them but this seems like a messy job.   Any suggestions you can give would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have found that a ball of chicken liver on a medium size treble hook works well in most situations. Beginning angler, need advice: What would be best live/artificial Baits to catch Catfish & Bass? What should be the best locations in the streams (no current, fast current, ponds, depths, etc…) where Catfish or Bass are concentrated? Thank you very much indeed.

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I have found that a ball of chicken liver on a medium size treble hook works well in most situations.

BBBbbbbbbut chicken liver flies right off the hook when you’re fly fishing.  Fresh pork skin is the best way for the fly fisherman —  * Center for Computational Biology  * Montana State Bozeman  (406) 994-7061  * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy */

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Hey…. Martha Stuart of Flyfishing <g <g <g Yuk Yuk Yuk !!! Are you still using the Hot Glue gun to tie your flies (I just came across your article from the Disco era) ?. I (obviously) found it amusing as hell….sorry…<g I also saw your foam nymphs in the Umpqua book…congratulations… — TimW Halfordian Golfer

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You can use strips cut from pantyhose to wrap the chicken livers in prior to placing them on the hook.  This keeps the bait on the hook but still lets the scent and blood reach the fish. A couple tips: – Cutting the pantyhose into strips prior to going fishing will spare you a significant amount of hastle from your fishing buddies. – Be careful when inserting a hook with a large barb.  It is not easy to stick the hook through the fabric.  Or better yet mash the barb down somewhat. – Let the wrapped liver soak in blood before you hurl it at the catfish. – I’ll leave the acquisition of the aforementioned garments to you.  Your wife may worry if she catches you rifling through her dresser. Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a question:  how do you get the chicken livers to stay on the hook.  I got some fresh chicken livers to use for bait and they were the consistancy of mush.  I would have had a better chance of trying to put grape jelly on the hook.  I have heard you can freeze them but this seems like a messy job.   Any suggestions you can give would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

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FROM, ANDRE !   I OFTEN TRY SEWING THREAD WITH MY CHICKEN LIVER, SIMPLY PUT THE LIVER ON A TRI -HOOK  AND PROCEED TO RAP IT ABOUT 10 TIMES ,  THAT ALWAYS WORKS FOR ME.

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? JE

Try the south fork of the Flathead river. Only has native west slope cutthroats and dolly varden. both are thriving, and are natives.   little hard to reach though…. in the bob Marshall Wilderness…. which is why they are still natives.

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I’m on the other side of the mountains, but there are a few little small streams coming down out of the mountains near my house have have native brookies.  And 8 incher is a lunker, but they’re gorgeous.

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Apache trout are still found in decent numbers in one watershed on the eastern Sierra, but no fishing is allowed and it is patrolled by a back country ranger whose only territory is that particular watershed.

OOOOOOPPPPS!! This was supposed to say Piute Cutthroat, not Apache trout.                                       Sorry ’bout that,                                               Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man? Jon, I don’t know a lot about many places, but wild native Brook Trout are still to be found in a few of the spring creek headwaters in the Appalachians (North Georgia, N.C.) but they are having a real tough time surviving the ever encroaching effects of man. As I’m sure you’re aware, the Brookie needs colder, clearer water than most freshwater species, and this presents a problem as the streams warm due to the activities on or near the various watershed.  Also, they cannot fend for themselves when pitted against Browns and Rainbows for a limited food supply. Sadly, another problem that the little brookies have is that they have a reputation of being too easy, and too small (we’re not talking Labrador here) so they don’t get a lot of attention.

Here in the eastern  part of Tn we still have some native brookies. It looks like they are coming back. I recently caught and released a  10 inch brook trout and caught many more of lesser caliber. Hans

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Fereira) writes: Do you know if the "Eagle Lake" rainbow is considered "native"?

Yes, it is native to Eagle Lake in Northern CA but has also been transplanted to lots of otherwise dead waters or to places where water is too alkaline for other types of trout including more common strains of rainbows .  This particular strain can tolerate higher alkalinity than normal trout.  They also get REAL BIG!                                   Good Fishing,                                        Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Yep! Terry Weir is right. Every fish I catch is a native, wild fish! Love that salt water biodiversity too! Wayne Marshall

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I think the brookies in Shenandoah NP are native. — Charlie… You weren’t supposed to tell

OOPs<g. They are so pretty though and hard enough to catch that I hope I didn’t do any harm. I can remember hiking back in a couple of miles, suprising a bear or two, and crawling up behind a boulder to make a cast into a pool that couldn’t have been much bigger than the inside of my rental car. What a lot of fun! — Charlie…

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Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? JE

I think the brookies in Shenandoah NP are native. — Charlie…

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I think the brookies in Shenandoah NP are native. — Charlie…

You weren’t supposed to tell

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man? JE <snip you would like the book "Native Trout of North America" by Robert H. Smith published by Amato Publications.  this book is a search for native, pure strain fish.  lots of searching of the high desert, tiny streams, etc.  pretty good reading too.  he goes after the fish with a fly rod. I second the recommendation for Robert H. Smiths book.  It’s been my resourse for any question that have come up in the group over the past few years.   John Fereira

  Yes; also for a strictly scientific approach to this interesting subject, try Robert J. Behnke’s monograph of western trouts: _Native Trout of Western North America_ pub. by: American Fisheries Society 5410 Grosvenor Lane, Suite 110 Bethesda, MD  20814   Cheers, and tight Lines! – Mark

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: Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the : continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the [snip] : Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this : topic? Read Lewis and Clark’s Journal.  The same fish are still here in this part of the world. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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Otherwise thank all your angler fellows introducing brook trout, rainbows, and – even worse- brown trout (of course with WD) into rivers where they outcompete the natives.

[deleted] Then the hypocritical irony of calling these the ‘wild fish’ and not wanting to eat ‘em because they are beautiful wild fish. TimW

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ry the Atlantic ocean. Native Stripers and Blues up to 30 lbs or more on a fly. That’s fishin!                                 Terry Weir         Right on Terry.  I grew up on Long Island sound and looked forward to every autum for a shot at those really BIG Blues.           I was speaking specifically of trout in the post though.  By the way, how is the Bluefish run shaping up this year?  It’s been a long time…… JE

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? California is loaded with native rainbows.  They are indiginous to the west slope of the sierra and are wide spread with many identifiable strains.

Do you know if the "Eagle Lake" rainbow is considered "native"? The giant Lahontan Cutthroat is gone for good, but some "almost" pure strain can still be found in the Eastern Sierra and in Pyramid Lake in Nevada.  The population in Pyramid Lake is artificially spawned each year by the Indians who control the Lake.  The original strain was wiped out with Bureau of Land Management project #1 which was the Darby Dam on the Truckee River.  

The Piute cutthroat can still be found in it’s native waters in an area a bit further south. Ralph Cutter has some great info on these trout in his book "Sierra Trout Guide".

Agreed. Robert Behnke has a good book out on Native Trout of North America (think that’s the title) but it is hard to find and expensive.

Actually Behnke’s book is called "Native Trout of Western North America".   Robert Smiths book is called "Native Trout of North America".                                  Hope this helps,                                          Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? JE you would like the book "Native Trout of North America" by Robert H. Smith published by Amato Publications.  this book is a search for native, pure strain fish.  lots of searching of the high desert, tiny streams, etc.  pretty good reading too.  he goes after the fish with a fly rod.

I second the recommendation for Robert H. Smiths book.  It’s been my resourse for any question that have come up in the group over the past few years.   John Fereira Stop Unsolicited Commercial Email – Join CAUCE (http://www.cauce.org) Support HR 1748, the anti-spam bill.

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Try the Atlantic ocean. Native Stripers and Blues up to 30 lbs or more on a fly. That’s fishin!                                 Terry Weir

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Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic?

California is loaded with native rainbows.  They are indiginous to the west slope of the sierra and are wide spread with many identifiable strains.  The Shasta rainbow is one strain that is found throughout northern CA, and the McCloud rainbow is still found in its native waters of the McCloud river in CA.  Strange thing, McCloud has the Shasta Rainbow and the McCloud (subspecies) in the same water along with the non-native brown trout (two strains of that one also).  Pure strain McCloud rainbows are easily discerned by their tangerine orange stripe and cheeks along with orange cuts under the chin.  Not often caught, but spectacular fish. There is not a question what it is when you catch one. Specific strains of Steelhead have been all but wiped out in many areas, But some native runs survive.  Skamania Strain (Washington state strain from Skamania River) hatchery replacements were introduced in many of the rivers to mitigate the destruction (and continued destruction) of their habitat.  Poor attempt at a solution. Apache trout are still found in decent numbers in one watershed on the eastern Sierra, but no fishing is allowed and it is patrolled by a back country ranger whose only territory is that particular watershed. Numerous fly fishing clubs have helped with stream reconstruction projects ther to help repair damage from grazing cattle. The giant Lahontan Cutthroat is gone for good, but some "almost" pure strain can still be found in the Eastern Sierra and in Pyramid Lake in Nevada.  The population in Pyramid Lake is artificially spawned each year by the Indians who control the Lake.  The original strain was wiped out with Bureau of Land Management project #1 which was the Darby Dam on the Truckee River.   Although they thought they provided for it, the dam wiped out all of the spawning area and within a few years, the 40 lb. + Lahontan Cutthroat were gone.  Used to be a cannery at the mouth of the Lake that netted fish, canned them, and shipped them throughout the world in the 1800’s.  Was a booming industry until the dam.  They did find some pockets of the Lahontan Cutthroat in some lakes on the east slope of the Sierra and that is what is currently in Pyramid Lake.  There is some controversy as to whether they are pure strain or not, but they don’t grow nearly as large as the native strain that was in Pyramid Lake.  Still catch 8 to 15 lb. Cutthroat there, but not much chance of breaking that 40 lb. record. Goldens can still be found in the Kern drainage (native waters), but few are pure strain as there were hatchery plants again in the 1800’s when rainbow hatcheries were thought to be the best thing since sliced bread. There are some pure strain fish still in there that were geologically isolated from the drainage they dumped the rainbow plants in.  Ralph Cutter has some great info on these trout in his book "Sierra Trout Guide". We also have lots of native squaw fish but they are not much of a gamefish and they predate on salmonids. Robert Behnke has a good book out on Native Trout of North America (think that’s the title) but it is hard to find and expensive.                                   Hope this helps,                                           Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools

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Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?   snip< JE

 Try Maine, Jon.  There are still places producing  fairly good size native brook trout.   And, the landlock salmon fishing ain’t too shabby either.  However, I believe the landlocks were stocked as fingerlings years ago.  Of course you may have trouble finding *exactly* where to go. ;0) Dave L.

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Anyone out there know where the native trout are?  I mean, where in the continental US can a person fish for trout that are native to the watershed they’re in presently, and have been there since before Man?  I know up in the Sierra’s you can still catch Volcano creek and Kern river Goldens in what I think are their ancestral (sp?) waters, but where else?  Are there still some Apache trout swimming where they always have, without the assistance of Man?  Greenbacks?  Lahontans?  Are the Cutts in Yellowstone completely pure?  Or have they been augmented by Man at any time?  I’d really love to know.  Is there a good book on this topic? JE

Take a look at Ralph Cutters book about the Sierra Nevada. Otherwise thank all your angler fellows introducing brook trout, rainbows, and – even worse- brown trout (of course with WD) into rivers where they outcompete the natives. Look at recent discussions about the reintroduction of native grayling into Yellowstone National Park and all the counterarguments of these f****** stupid fisherman who only want to catch lots of big fish without caring about ecological interconnections. The general agreement of environmental destruction (what else is the deminishing of species variety in a given biotop?) is responsible that you can

Question:

Anyone been to the MacKenzie Trail Lodge in B.C…… we saw the owner at the sportsman show in denver and are thinking about going next summer….would like some feedback on the place if anyone has been there.

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Anyone been to the MacKenzie Trail Lodge in B.C…… we saw the owner at the sportsman show in denver and are thinking about going next summer….would like some feedback on the place if anyone has been there.

I have visited Tsasha Lake and stayed with Bill the last 4 years. The dry fly fishing on the Blackwater is excellent. I fished in June, July, and August and found the fishing good any month but I prefer June. The weather is cooler and it has a better chance of rain but the fishing makes up for it. Lots of fish-a 50 fish day on the Blackwater is probably below average if you spend any time and effort. I only counted fish one day (my first) and easily topped 100 fish. The real trick on the Blackwater is getting into larger fish 16". There are fly outs available and some of the lakes offer larger fish. Bill will steer you to the spot that will meet your needs. There are a few walk in lakes that offer good fishing. One has very nice fish but it is possible to get skunked. I always give it a shot and catch fish about 1/2 the time. I tie flies for Bill and give seminars after the feasts they call dinner. So factor in my biasis. Perhaps others will have more to say. — Vic Brockett Vic’s Fly-By-Night http://www.navicom.com/~vic

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

In California one of our largest crops is rice and the biproduct of rice production consists of millions of mosquito fish and crawdads flushed out of the fields before harvest. Most of these die in the drainage ditches. Since most of the veggies eat rice just think how many animal lives they are responsible for. Harvesting other grains destroys bird nests and draining wetlands to grow these benign grains have destroyed the waterfowl flocks that use to blacken our skies with their flights (do you think that might have been another form of air polution  )   I wish they would enjoy their veggies and leave more good wholesome meat for the rest of us dewayne

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Is "dying from lack of meat" the technical definition of "Bob’s" condition; i don’t have a strong medical background.                                         -curious

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Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. [rest deleted]

Well… It *is* the truth, isn’t it ? TimW

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Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts!

Hmm, using my wonderous (almost if I could get it to work properly) new bit of software at home, I can browse the newsgroups whilst also being able to see the newsgroups list. The concept of people on ‘talk.politic.tibet’, ‘rec.animals.wildlife’, ‘rec.backcountry’ etc being ‘fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts’ just doesn’t really ring true. I think the best thing is to assume it is a troll and <snip — David Arno

Response:

As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters.

This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in many parts of this country. I have exposed the double standards and hypocrisy by which vegetarians live, and I hope they stop the high and mighty banter, and the self righteous behaviour they impose on everyone else who chooses to eat meat. All I ask in return is an apology from AR’s (animal rights people) to hunters and meat eaters.  It is as simple as that.——Muskie

If animals had a voice, they would demand an apology from YOU.

Response:

Is "dying from lack of meat" the technical definition of "Bob’s" condition; i don’t have a strong medical background.                                    -curious

Sounds kind of funny to me, maybe that doctor should face a review board, sounds like s/he doesn’t know what s/he is talking about.  If it were protein deficiency, that’s one thing, but "dying from lack of meat"….sounds like a diagnosis a 3-year old hamburger lover would make. Cynthia S. Smith http://www.sn.no/~csmith http://www.ifi.uio.no/~cynthias

Response:

= =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)? —

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes of the hypocrites, once and for all. Alot of vegetarians eat that way because they dont believe in killing animals. Well, guess what? You vegetarians kill many animals by eating corn, beans, turnips and other such vegetables.  When old macdonald is out in his field in planting or harvesting season, he is running over many mice, bird eggs, salamanders, and you name it with his plow and tractor. Ever seen how fast a baby rabbit is when it is two weeks old? Not very. It is also not very likely that a nest of young bunnys could survive a run in with a plow or tractor wheel.   Grouse eggs, plus baby grouse dont stand a chance in the farmers WHEAT fields  when its pickin’ time.  Weasels, baby skunks, baby woodchucks, baby geese, baby oppusom, tucked in their little burrows into the soft dirt of the farmers field dont have a chance in planting or plowing season. Every time you take a bite of that corn, and think to yourself, " Im glad im a vegetarian, I dont kill animals like those stupid hunters do " , you contribute to at least a few senseless animal deaths. For every 200 acre farmers field, think of all the animals that are killed or mamed by the plow or harvester!   ( the rest deleted)

200 acres?  Not far from here they measure their fields by the section (640 acres)!  And don’t forget all the animals that are no longer with us because of loss of habitat to the plow.

Response:

As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters. This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian.

As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  Rangeland contains a wide variety of animal life, none of which are killed to make room for the growth of human foodstuff (in this case, cattle).  So while it may take 10 times as much grass to make a pound of meat, feeding the grass to the cattle certainly does no harm to the surrounding animals. In addition, the animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in many parts of this country.

More so than was caused by the vast herds of bison and pronghorns in the past? Jessica and the zoo: Kosh (dog), Liza (horse), Nikki, Pixel, and Voodoo (Demon Cats from Hell), Flick (snake) and oh yeah, Keith (husband), who puts up with us all.   "Frogs are generally considered a pretty non-violent species. Unless, of course, you’re a fly".  -Kermit

Response:

[brutally slaughtered text was here] As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  

Except in brownies. And I think the original poster has that down just pat. 8^) TimW

Response:

<Hundreds of lines of crap deleted Excellent!  Muskie, meet Dr Jai.  Dr Jai, meet Muskie.  Why don’t the two of you bugger off to alt.fan.jai-maharaj and have a cosy chat? — I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did.  I said I didn’t know.                                                 Mark Twain.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Doug Arendt) writes: = =   As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life =   than hunters or meat eaters. = =   This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being =   killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced =   there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… =   it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity =   of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals =   (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. In addition, the =   animal you kill and eat has used that excess plant matter to create =   urine, fecal matter, methane, etc… which causes gross pollution in =   many parts of this country. Hmmm…what if you raise the meat animals on permanent pasture (i.e. rarely if ever plowed)? And the previous poster is ignoring that all those ‘pollutants’, urine, fecal matter, etc. are actually the main ingredients in organic fertilizer.  Guess they don’t eat organic produce, huh….. Besides, the WORST pollutant of our water ways is run-off from urban and suburban lawns. Sue — ======= Mike Mayer                     (414) 751-3557     Work: Technology Group, Inc. Neenah, WI                 Home:

In the west a real factor is the amount of water it takes to grow a pound of steak. Alfalfa and hay need LOTS of water. It is tremendously inefficient to grow our protein on the hoof.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes text deleted hare krishna, actually i agree with a lot of this post. IF YOU ARE NOT SELF-SUFFICIENT YOU ARE NOT A VEGETARIAN. that’s why i’m learning everything i can about self-sufficiency and sustainable, cruelty-free, organic agriculture. but i must say that the below text is a load of garbage. i’m a hare krishna devotee (please refrain from the cult jokes). i live on a krishna farm community and teach at our elementary school. all the children here have been strict vegetarians since birth. visitors are always commenting on how radiantly healthy they look. some of the older kids who go to public high school are star athletes of every sport. none have EVER eaten meat. bhaktin casey  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

    —— Hmmmmmmmmm?—— Nice disertation but you’re boy Bob is the exception, not the rule. Americans have TOO MUCH MEAT in their diet and their Cholesterol Levels and Fat levels are beyond reason.  FAT INTAKE should not exceed 5% of the total calories and Cholesterol should be as close to zero as possible. George Gehrke

Response:

Who cares this is a fishing forum….let’s talk FISHING…. (pass the salt and pepper pleaz, while eatting prime rib!)   Em*  

Response:

[snip] BACK UP HERE and consider this.  "ALL life comes from the sun".  You figure out for yourself the evidence that plant material sustains flesh.  At least, I hope you do not lack ‘logic’. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Now then, can we all start talking about fly fishing please?

I hate to be a nit picking buttinsky but using words like "all" and "always" in a statement usually gets you in trouble.  This is no exception.  There have relatively recently been discovered ecosystems that are completely independent of the sun’s energy.  I’m referring to deep sea sulfur vents which exist in total darkness and sulfur reducing bacteria are the primary producers. Regarding cattle etc. being fed grass.  If the doubter ( I’ve lost track of who’s who on this thread) would like to come to Kansas, I’ll show them the largest remaining tract of tallgrass prairie ( and some of the most beautiful scenery in the world ) with all kinds of cattle happily munching the grass and making steak. — Brent L. Brock Kansas State University Dept. Agronomy, Range Science

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes

text deleted hare krishna, actually i agree with a lot of this post. IF YOU ARE NOT SELF-SUFFICIENT YOU ARE NOT A VEGETARIAN. that’s why i’m learning everything i can about self-sufficiency and sustainable, cruelty-free, organic agriculture. but i must say that the below text is a load of garbage. i’m a hare krishna devotee (please refrain from the cult jokes). i live on a krishna farm community and teach at our elementary school. all the children here have been strict vegetarians since birth. visitors are always commenting on how radiantly healthy they look. some of the older kids who go to public high school are star athletes of every sport. none have EVER eaten meat. bhaktin casey – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

Response:

| Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! [chomp] |  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) | [..] | to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results | were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor Riiiiight! Heard of Craig Shergold?

Response:

[...] : : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. : What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on : GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? : Now we await the long silence…..         Would that we had had to endure YOURS.  Be that as it may, however,         it’s clear that you have never been to a cattle-raising country         in which you actually engaged in observation.  The fact is that         most beef cattle are raised by grazing and, in the U. S. anyway,         only spend the last few weeks of life in a feedlot.  It is my         understanding that many other beef-producing countries dispense         with the feedlot and bring the animals to market directly from         the range (which is why their beef tends to be somewhat less         tender and somewhat more strongly flavored than the rather bland         stuff we’re used to in the U. S.).         How much time does the average beef cow spend in the feedlots,         Seetoh?         [With any luck, we'll now endure a long silence...] — – Rich Young (E-mail will be posted publicly as I see fit.  You have been warned.)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

BACK UP HERE and consider this.  "ALL life comes from the sun".  You figure out for yourself the evidence that plant material sustains flesh.  At least, I hope you do not lack ‘logic’. George Gehrke/Mr. Gink Now then, can we all start talking about fly fishing please?

Response:

: : As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life : than hunters or meat eaters. : : This is a totally absurd statement. If all you say about animals being : killed in the fields is true… and the plant matter that is produced : there is fed to animals, which you in your arrogance kill and eat… : it takes up to 10 times as much plant matter to make a given quantity : of meat, so you are actually killing many times more animals : (_including_ your cow, pig, etc.) than a vegetarian. : As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat. What makes you so sure that "most of those animals are fed on GRASS" ?   What evidence do you have to support this? Now we await the long silence….. seetoh

Response:

Hello there fellow food and nutrition enthusiasts! I would like to take this time to point out the double-standards by which vegetarians live by. I feel it is my duty to open the eyes of the hypocrites, once and for all. Alot of vegetarians eat that way because they dont believe in killing animals. Well, guess what? You vegetarians kill many animals by eating corn, beans, turnips and other such vegetables.  When old macdonald is out in his field in planting or harvesting season, he is running over many mice, bird eggs, salamanders, and you name it with his plow and tractor. Ever seen how fast a baby rabbit is when it is two weeks old? Not very. It is also not very likely that a nest of young bunnys could survive a run in with a plow or tractor wheel.   Grouse eggs, plus baby grouse dont stand a chance in the farmers WHEAT fields  when its pickin’ time.  Weasels, baby skunks, baby woodchucks, baby geese, baby oppusom, tucked in their little burrows into the soft dirt of the farmers field dont have a chance in planting or plowing season. Every time you take a bite of that corn, and think to yourself, " Im glad im a vegetarian, I dont kill animals like those stupid hunters do " , you contribute to at least a few senseless animal deaths. For every 200 acre farmers field, think of all the animals that are killed or mamed by the plow or harvester! Animals dont know any better to nest and live somewhere else. They see a nice field to nest up in, not knowing the horrors that lie ahead. Think of all the shrews, all the insects, and all the animal life that is destroyed when old macdonald plants and harvests. It is overwelming. Now, I have seen many farms and met many farmers, and I havent seen ONE farmer without a shotgun, or a gun that he hunts birds and animals with. I have seen many farms that use barb wire fences to keep out deer so they dont eat the vegetable products growing on the farm. If you look at some of those fences, you can see deer hair and   skin stuck to the barbs, and sometimes deer will get stuck in those fences and ultimatley die a slow and horrible death, all twisted and mangled with broken necks. And, most farmers have 22’s they use to pot-shoot groundchucks and groundhogs, to keep them from eating the vegetable products they are growing. Not a pretty picture I am painting here is it veggies?  rabbits are always a nusiance on farms, and hence, many farmers utilize cats and dogs to comb the fields, hoping these pets will keep the rabbit population down. A farmers field yeilding vegetable products is not a animal friendly place as you can see! But wait, theres more!   Many farmers growing vegetable product also use pesticides. These pesticides either annoy or kill tens of thousands of different insect animal life. Not only do the pesticides used kill insect life, when the rains come down, these pestecides wash off into farm creeks, ponds, and lakes. Ever seen a river next to some large corn or lettuce farms? The fish life is pathetic at best. catfish with tumors, and where bass used to live, suckers take over because the runoff has killed the oxygen levels, making it almost impossible for fish to survive. So, even eating corn kills fish!  Pesticide runoff is a common problem where farmers grow vegetable product. It causes the death of thousands of fish, and virtually destroys these freshwater ecosystems, killing turtles, ducks, kingfishers, herons, cranes, mink, otter, racoon, muskrat and so on. I think your getting the picture. How does that guilt-free salad taste now?   and think of the cows, deer, fox, coyote,and other large game that drink form these pesticide creeks and lakes! All so you can have your guilt-free vegetarian life style! How about them veggies! As you can see, vegetarians kill just as much, if not MORE animal life than hunters or meat eaters. I have exposed the double standards and hypocrisy by which vegetarians live, and I hope they stop the high and mighty banter, and the self righteous behaviour they impose on everyone else who chooses to eat meat. All I ask in return is an apology from AR’s (animal rights people) to hunters and meat eaters.  It is as simple as that.——Muskie  TO MEAT OR NOT TO MEAT?  ( REVISED EDITION 8/10/96) In a recent study, a 35 year old male, strict vegetarian of 12 years, went for a checkup at his doctors office.  Thinking he was perfectly fit, the man proceeded out the office right after the checkup. The doctor chased him down the hall, and grabbed him aside then he said, " Im sorry Bob, you have 2 months to live".  Bob had NOT eaten meat since he was 23, and the results were that his heart was dying due to lack of meat. The doctor said he needed meat at least occasionaly, to live. Unfortunately, the problem could not be corrected, it was too late for Bob. he died on 8/21/96. This sad episode COULD have been prevented.  In another related study,  Woman who are pregnant that were vegetarians averaged    babies with a much lower weight than meat-eating pregnant mothers. 50% of the babies of strict vegetarians were considered "weak" and "having birth weights of dangerously low levels". This is sad news, but true. You see people, we need meat to build our strong hearts, and strong muscles. These "weak" babies didnt get a chance to choose if they wanted to be vegetarians, their bodies were forced only veggies by the unsensitive mothers, who, in a way, were already forcing their beliefs on their un-born child. This doesnt need to be the case. Or how about when your child is 16 years old, and is 4 foot 9, with bad bones and bad vision? what do you do when that child asks you , "mommy, why did you take the life away from me? why didnt you feed me the necessary nutrients that meat provides when I was in your womb?" These sad cases are all too often. Meat builds champions, and warriors. We need meat to fight our wars, and to be victorious. We need the feeling of bringing home the meat to our family. A feeling that cant be taken for granted. Come on people, cows are no better than mosquitos. If your a vegetarian, and bugs hit your windshield, and it doesnt bother you, why does it bother you when an old cow gets a bolt through the head? What is the difference? The folks that started our very existence, ate meat and loved it. If it were not for their great meat-eating abilities, we all would not be here. So I ask you to rally your support for our GREAT fishermen and hunters. these caring and bright people continue fine traditions that are responsible for your being here. That great Sportsmen, the breath of fresh air in a smoggy world, is the master of his domain, a true "king" if you will, of his senses and surroundings. Fishing and Hunting are the bright positives in a negative world. And there is nothing like enjoying a big barbeque before a good hunt or fishing outing.  Ribs, chicken wings, drumsticks, meatballs, fish fillets(trout are best served whole), steaks, eggs, chicken breasts, veil, lamb cutlet dripping with grease, juicy, flavourful bratwurst, and best of all, a nice side of ham with some spicey mustard.  these sorts of foods provide oneself with power, nutrition, and the ability to prosper in adverse enviornments. So, I ask you again, support the great fishermen and hunters. Give them a pat on the back when   you see one , and tell him/her, "thanks, thanks for all youve done. Thank you for allowing me the gift of true life. I am forever thankful." Lets not have anymore weak babies and sad stories like the one above. Start supporting meat and our great sportspersons. For these individuals know the essence of life. If you take the time to really know a sportsperson, you might change your life, for the better.——Muskie

Response:

: As usual, you totally miss the concept that most of those animals : are fed on GRASS, which humans can’t eat.  Rangeland contains a wide : variety of animal life, none of which are killed to make room for : the growth of human foodstuff (in this case, cattle).  So while it : may take 10 times as much grass to make a pound of meat, feeding : the grass to the cattle certainly does no harm to the surrounding : animals. You are of course referring to buffaloes and wolves when you talk about animals not being killed to make room for cattle.  Then, there are the slash and burn tactics of Brazilian ranchers.  No animals being killed there, eh.  And let us not forget polluted water sources because of animal waste.  Since we are discussing animals, I won’t even go into how many people die early because of the garbage that is passed off on them as meat.                                  -Tom

Response:

Don’t forget all the pollution created when shipping those yummy veggies cross country. todd — "I envy not him that eats better meat than I do, nor him that is richer or wears better clothes than I do. I envy nobody but him, and him only, that catches more fish than I do." Izaak Walton

Response:

200 acres?  Not far from here they measure their fields by the section (640 acres)!  And don’t forget all the animals that are no longer with us because of loss of habitat to the plow.

Not to mention all the corn and wheat that died so that we could live.  Don’t discount them;  they’re a sight more alive than rocks and minerals, after all.   Just think;  if redwood trees were a culinary treat,  them environmentalists and vegetarians would have a whole new battle to fight. Not that I distance myself from those particular causes;  I’m simply posing as the polemic. Cheers, Jen

Response:

Question:

John- My experience in the Yellowstone area is that any time after mid-September you’d better be prepared for any weather extremes including snow (potentially heavy-a foot or more wouldn’t be unusual.)  So, unless your group are hardy campers, you could really be caught short by the weather. ( It can also be very warm, so bring clothes for all possibilities.)  As for rivers, everything I have heard from several sources this year is that fishing has been below par all around the area.  Madison in the park is never too hot, the firehole might be getting better as the weather cools, forget the Gibbon.  Try the Gallatin inside the park – it can be very good – or not!  Check with Bob Jacklin’s shop or Blue Ribbon Flies for the best info on current conditions. Motels are all around, none too fancy but I like the Lazy G Motel on Hayden street.  Phone 406 646-7586- owners Bob & (Sharon?-I think) are real nice folks.  They have at least one unit with a kitchenette.  Have a great trip – drop me an e-mail when you get back & tell me how you did!

Response:

We are planning on fishing out of the West Yellowstone area the first week in Oct.  We would appreciate any inputs on that plan, specifically: Camping out?  Is the weather apt to be too cold to enjoy tenting at Madison Junction? What streams are good that week?  We probably won’t want to travel too far so we don’t cut into our fishing time too much.  Looks like the Firehole, Madison in the Park, Gibbon.  Any other suggestions? Any recommendations on reasonable motels in W. Yellowstone if we decide not to tent? Thanx John Bjostad Columbia Heights, MN Retired avionics engineer – full time fly fishing addict

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We are planning on fishing out of the West Yellowstone area the first week in Oct.  We would appreciate any inputs on that plan, specifically:

I’ll let someone more familiar comment on the relative merits of the rivers in Yellowstone.  Do be aware that the road in Yellowstone south of Madison Junction for about 5 miles is only open from 6a-10a and 6p-10p weekdays.  When it is open, expect delays as the construction doesn’t detour you around but rather thru where they’re working.  This is also true for east entrance from Cody. — Steve & Tish Harder Ames, IA http://www.netins.net/showcase/wwwisc

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Hello, here are some posts I have sent to others. Hope you find the useful!  Alan Barrow  km4ba         | If a little knowledge….. Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing Some friends and I, serious fly fisherman all, are thinking about going to the Florida Keys to do some bonefishing (and maybe tarpon, permit, etc.)  this winter.  Never having done this before, I have scads of questions: * Is end of December/beginning of January a good time?

Bones are there year round. They will not come up onto the flats if the water temp is too cold. Also wind is more likely, and impacts the number of "fishable" (sight fishing) days. However, the largest bonefish are usually caught in winter. I have hooked (not landed) very big bonefish during XMAS trips last year. Tarpon migrate, and are not in the Keys in large quantities until May/June. There are year round Tarpon spots in the Keys ( and Miami) but it is usually deep water. (Bridges/channels, etc) I consider June/July the best time all around for fishing in the Keys. I still fish year all seasons, because even "off season" the fishing is better than most places I know. But for fly fisherman, winter may be less desirable. Redfish are available year round, as are sharks and barracudas. Many fly types are sight fishing for big ‘Cudas during winter when it the flats are too cold for bonefish. * Where are the good spots in the keys?  Should we try Grand Bahama or  Belize instead?

My conclusion is that if you want numbers and lot’s of action, hit the bahamas, Christmas Island (near Hawaii), or costa rica. However, If you want big fish on a regular basis, Miami down to Marathon for bonefish is hard to beat. For Tarpon, Boca Grande pass in June is fantastic. Not the same as sight fishing the flats edges for tarpon in the Keys, but killer in a different fashion. Tarpon are all around florida mid year, so there are many good places for them. The keys are ideal due to: Big Bonefish, good tarpon, great Permit, OK redfish, great trout, great dolphin close in (the fish). The water is great for sight fishing in the Keys. Other parts of Fla are less "clear". The Bahamas are tough to beat in water clarity. * Know any good guides/outfitters?

I have not used a guide for 3 years, but recommend using one until you become proficient in finding fish yourself. Even then, guides will put you onto more fish. * Will I need my own equipment or can I rent?

I have not seen much rental equipment. If you have a guide, he will provide top notch equipment. I hope you have a good time!  Alan Barrow  km4ba         | If a little knowledge…..  ..!gatech!kd4nc!km4ba!alan |       then what is the Anti-Dote??? Return-Path: jab Path: hpuerca!jab Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing Distribution: na I will be on Islamorada from February 10-17 of this year.  I plan to do some inshore fishing, and am wondering if this is a particularly "hot" time for specific fish. Can anyone give me some help? I’ll be

Entirely dependant on water temperature. (Wind may also be an issue) Some of the largest bonefish are caught in "winter" (dec-feb). You may also go all day without seeing a fish on a flat. A guide is a big win here. They may know when/where fish may make an appearence. We have found that "normal" behavior does not apply. (normal for bonefish is: fish move on flat with low incoming tide.) Problem is that with colder water temp, at may be midday before the water warms up enough. Thus traditional early morning/late evening "best times" may not apply. Barracuda are found (and fished for) on the flats in the winter. Any other time, these guys are almost impossible to catch. (Except when a big bonefish is about to nail your shrimp/lure) Also sharks on the flats can be fun. Tarpon are pretty much somewhere else, except for a few "bridge" types that hang around year round. Redfish and trout in the backcountry (Fla Bay, as opposed to the Atlantic) should also be a good option. (Not as exciting as bonefish, but still pretty good) I believe offshore is pretty good this time of year. (Sailfish, grouper, Kings, snapper, etc) out for a full day, and would like to spend about half the day fishing purely for sport (i.e. tarpon, bonefish, maybe permit) and half the day fishing for something I can cook up afterwards. Is this possible?

Bonefish or permit then hit backcountry for redfish or trout. I have limited out on big trout within 30 min skiff ride from Islamorada. (By the way, you will be "in" Islamorada, the city. You will be "on" upper or lower matacumbe. Just a "nit" :- ) Any suggestions would be appreciated. I’d like to call up and reserve a guide ahead of time.

We had good luck with Jamie Brodie, who booked out of Holiday Isle. I could get other names from Fla Sportsman if needed. Secondly, since I can’t afford a guide every day I’m there, but would like to do some fishing most of the days I’m there, I’m wondering if anyone can give me advice about wading/shore fishing. I’ll cast for

This is how we got started. Harry Harris park up in key largo (20 min N of Islamorada) is a good flat to wade for bonefish. Also flats off the bridges at shell and indian key ( Just S of Islamorada. ) are good. If you see brown bottom that you can get too from your hotel, etc. I would give it a try. Wear tennis shoes, or booties. (I use "aquasox" as well) Be aware of stingrays. (Some say to shuffle. I do if I cannot see the bottom very clearly. I have found if the bottom is hard enough to wade, the stingrays do not bury themselves. They are also very spooky, and will avoid you.) Also bridge fishing all along that area is good. You can also rent a boat. (not cheap, but cheaper than a guide.) Plan on using it mainly to get too flats. Do not try to take it on the flats, as you will get stuck unless it is very high tide. You will not have a pole anyway. Even with our flat’s boats, we wade alot. (during low tide) anything, I just don’t know what’s there to cast to, or what to cast to whatever is there (to state a simple point in a fairly unruly way).

On the flats you will see:         stingrays- do not try to catch them. Look for bonefish/jack         following them. try to cast on the back of any stingray you see.         Many times you will not see the fish following them. Best sign         that bonefish are on the flats. Stingrays are your friend.         Bonefish- swim most in straight lines. best case is to find them         tailing in low water. (why wading is good). You may see one or a         dozen. Very spooky. Cast in front of them, let them swim up on         your lure/bait.         Permit- The most spooky. look for "sickle" fin sticking out of         water.         Baracuda- usually loitering around. Moving very slowly, then         disappears faster than your eye can follow. If you see a fish,         and it does not move 5-10 feet in a few seconds, then it is probably         a barracuda. cast past it 10 feet in front of it. reel as fast         as you can. They strike instinctively.         Jack- Usually you do not see them, but catch them by accident.         can get pretty big, fights almost as good as a bonefish. (Just         missing the 200 yd runs.)         Sharks- 2-5′ nurse, lemon, blacktip, and bonnet sharks. Lots of         fun to catch. Good sign of bonefish on the flats. They will         home in on a shrimp in the water. Plan on a short fight with a         quick release unless you use 2-3" of wire. (The wire does not         appear to bother bonefish. My brother has started rigging this         way all the time, just to sight cast for sharks if the bonefish         are not around)         Snapper- (mangrove and yellowtail) I call the yellowtail         "piranah" snappers, as they will make the water boil if you         throw a shrimp to them. Expert bait stealers, and will not         touch artificials. Usually too small to eat, but fun.         Basket ball sized puffs of mud- Bonefish!!! Usually more than         one. Look for the freshest, and then move 20-40′ ahead.         A line of muddy water- Stingray "mudding". Cast on it’s back.         A big cloud of muddy water- usually a school of bonefish and         jack. Often a stingray is down at the bottom. Cast into the         middle of it. Plan on 20-40′ casts. I use 8# test, 1 or 1/0 O’shaughsany cadmium or nickle hooks. Live shrimp or half dollar sized crabs. (The best) I carry extra shrimp in my pocket while wading. Also can use "skimmer" lead head jigs. Also consider fishing mangrove creeks and banks for snapper, snook (mostly at night), grunt, etc. You can catch "keepers". Grunt are not considered as desirable as snapper, but they are actually pretty good to eat. You will know if you catch a snook. Limited season. I have fun fishing hotel docks with my little boys even. In other words, any advice, as detailed as possible, about shore fishing on Islamorada would be greatly appreciated. I have one 6 1/2′ medium spinning outfit, and one 8′ medium-heavy spinning outfit (reel has 300 yard line capacity for 20′ test).

I would use the 6′6" for flats, and the bigger rod for bridge fishing. Again, 8# quality line is fine for the flats. Fill your reel. (optimum casting) Oil/grease your drag. It has got to be absolutley smooth. Set it for what you think it should be, then back it down to 1/3 of that. (We broke off several bonefish till we learned this.) They will take 100-200 yds of line extremely … read more »

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Hello,       I will be going Florida on April 1st, I would like to know about fishing in and around Ft. Lauderdale and the Keys. My primary interest is light tackle and fly fishing. Any tips on places to fish from shore for bonefish, permit, barracuda, tarpon, and/or any other large gamefish.           Suggestions will be greatly appreciated. This will be my first time down there, so I guess, I am a greenhorn. Tight lines……Fish On! Christopher Toner — –   2nd Shift Operations:RUCS               (908) 932-2293 –   OTS-Hill Center, Busch Campus –   Piscataway, NJ    

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