Question:

Well done.  Wish I knew Bob so the picture would be absolutely crystal clear, but I get the idea.  Great pictures, Wolfie. Dave

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And therein lies both the beauty and the curse of the lowly Power Bar. These little miracles can be recycled indefinitely with no noticeable loss of flavor or change in texture.

That’s because they suck to begin with. Give me an 8 oz bag of King’s peppered beef jerky and a few bags of M&Ms.

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…..and hoisted our packs once again.  Check the crew.  Jeff’s wearing a glazed, almost beatific, smile…..endorphins or sumpthin…..he’ll get over it, and Bob just looks cramped and mean.  Right.  Everybody’s ready.  And up the trail we go. Half an hour later, our first real break.  Jeffie, the merciless bastard, agrees to a ten minute stop at a campground known, for reasons which by now are of absolutely no interest to me, as "the sawdust pile".  As he goes to look at the stream, Bob swigs from a plastic bladder filled with a mysterious brownish fluid, and I search the suspension system of my backpack in the probably vain hope of finding a scapula which I noticed, some time ago, was not in it’s accustomed position in the left dorsal proximal (or maybe it was the distal…….how DOES one tell them apart?) quadrant of my torso, a young couple approaches from downstream. He goes off to admire the stream….or make one of his own, and she stops to chat.  They are on a seven mile hike and the turn around is at "the sawdust pile", so we have come three and a half miles.  As we rest, several of the elderly day hikers from one of the pontoon boats we passed on the lake straggle in……well, actually, a  couple of them blaze by in a swirling cloud of dust and are only barely stopped by the frantic shouts of their friends or they might be in central Labrador by now. It is at this campground that we first notice the bear proof food hangers.  At each of the campgrounds the park service has installed one or more of these.  A steel cable is stretched between two trees some twenty to thirty feet apart.  Suspended from this cable are several more which are formed into continuous loops, each of which runs through a pulley at the top.  There is a pair of hooks on each of the loops, and a series of plastics sleeves held in place with nuts and bolts. The sleeves act as handholds, making it easier to haul up the hooked load of food.  Each cable also has a sturdy halyard clip which is placed such that it just reaches a screw eye about waist high in the trunk of the tree with the load suspended aloft.  Simple, elegant, cheap, and very effective. There will be one more rest stop before arrival at what will become our home for two nights and a day.  This time, I open my pack and take out something to eat.  Even Jeff is willing to stop for twenty minutes or so, but he is driven and Bob, who wears a look that says, "well, I’d probably like to sit down and die here with you, but I think I’ll take my chances with Jeff this time, nevertheless," accompanies him, leaving me to my fate.  "Ya’ll go on ahead," sez I, "I’ll catch up". I dawdle for a bit, enjoying the surroundings and the weather.  It is October and the leaves are beautiful.  A trout stream rushes by within easy reach and I know that I am within a mile of camp on a trail with an average grade of 2 or 3 percent……a trail which should more properly be called a highway….hell, a veritable Autobahn of hiking trails. This is the sort of trail that backpackers dream about after a hard day of climbing steep ascents over rolling cobbles and through calf deep mud.  So, I sit for a while and sip water and smoke a cigarette.  The day hikers have been left behind and I have a lovely spot all to myself.  Just me and the trees….and the stream….and the rocks….and the bea….um….well shit, maybe it IS time to get moving again. There is no sign of Jeff or Bob for the next half hour.  I am just about to cross another bridge when I happen to look to the right and catch a glimpse of movement.  Uh oh…….oh, it’s the boys.  It appears we have arrived at last.  Nice campground.  Not quite as barren looking as the others we had passed, and there is a more or less level spot on a tiny spit that over looks the confluence of Hazel and whatever the little feeder that comes out of Bone valley is called.  Not all THAT little actually.  This is a major tributary for a stream the size of Hazel, carrying about half as much water.   We set up camp quickly.  Two tents are erected in about fifteen minutes, a clothes line is strung, and three suddenly rejuvenated fly fishers are suited up and ready to rock in another ten or so.  Jeff dives in right at the camp site, Bob goes up the tributary, and I walk down a few hundred yards to fish my way back up. Hazel creek is different water than most that I have fished in the North Carolina mountains.  Where Santeetlah and the others plunge and roar in a frenzy of moving water, Hazel merely rushes in exuberance.  The is bigger water….not BIG, mind you, but bigger.  There are actual pools, trenches, runs, and even some sizable eddies where the others have pockets.  There are deep holes holding mysteries.  There are places too deep and or fast to wade through; you have to go around.  An hour or so of fishing produces a few small fish, and that’s enough.  I arrive back at the campsite and see Bob working his way up the tributary.  We spend the next hour and a half exploring a couple hundred yards of this promising water.  The promise is not fulfilled in any spectacular fashion, but we know the fish are there, as they are in Hazel itself, as they HAVE to be in water that looks like this.  We have been ASSURED that they are there by witnesses like Jeff and Wayno, but we believe it anyway. Back in camp, we eventually prepare the first of what will be a series of dismal meals.  Having flown half way across the country, I came without any food and we survived on what Bob had left over from previous trips and a few odds and ends we picked up in Robbinsville.  Not that my bringing anything from home would have made any real difference.  I’ve always been fairly indifferent to comestible niceties while on the trail….just too much bother, but I hope I never live to see another "Power Bar", and I believe the others share this sentiment.  Damned things look like they’ve been eaten once already, and neither the flavor nor the consistency does anything to dispel that disturbing impression      Two other campers who arrived while we were out fishing rattle pots and pans (cast iron pans!) as they enjoy what smells like bacon and beans….THEY came in on horses, trailing a pack mule…..bastards!     We kindle a fire using the wood which the previous tenants have thoughtfully left for us.  It’s a bit of a chore, as the wood is wet….looks and feels like it’s been rained on for a few days.  But it is mostly surface moisture and among the three of us we manage to keep a cheery blaze going till late into the night, as we each enjoy his own brand of poison and tell lies.  Long about 7:30 Jeff bags it and the rest of the party is not far behind. Morning comes early as Jeffie has not slept a wink…..something about cougars and bears cavorting around his tent all night long.  After a hasty breakfast of coffee, liquor, power bar wrappers, and crawly things, it was back to the stream for a full day of fishing.  Bob elected to stay in the general neighborhood of camp while Jeff and I decided to head upstream a couple of miles.  Jeff was eager to see virgin water….the section that had been closed to fishing for the past 25 years, despite having been informed that it wasn’t really all that virginal.  Seems the locals have been raping it pretty steadily throughout that time…..what’s new?  Virgin or not, a mile or so was enough for me and I ducked into the stream as Jeff continued up the trail.  In all, I fished two miles or a bit more that day.  For the first hour or two I worked the water carefully and caught fish steadily at the rate of one every three or four minutes.  By the end of that time it was clear that it was just going to be one of those days.  One of those infrequent days when it simply doesn’t matter much what you do. Wishing to see more of the stream and thinking that I might eventually overtake Jeff, I began to move much more quickly and only fished what seemed to me the most appealing spots.  I’d like to think that twenty years of experience and hard practice have prepared me to be able to pick the best spots to fish, but the truth is it was just one of those days.  The catching pace remained constant throughout the day.  I ended up with something like sixty or seventy, based on calculating the time fished and the steady catch rate.  The largest were three ten inch rainbows, all unusually fat.  The rest ranged from three through eight inches or thereabouts with a fairly even distrubtion…..about normal for most of the waters I’ve fished in NC or back home in Wisconsin and Michigan, for that matter.  Surprisingly, all were rainbows and browns, with the rainbows predominating.  Not a brookie in the bunch. By late afternoon, having gotten bored with catching fish, bouncing around on wet rocks and taking a couple of bone jarring falls, and knowing that I had about a three mile hike back to camp, I decided it was time to see if I could locate the trail which task, after caroming off several nasty and impenetrable rhodo thickets, I eventually accomplished. Took about forty-five minutes of fast paced downhill hiking to make it back.  Arriving back at camp, I found Jeff in the stream there.  He had given up some time ago, gone back down the trail and then hiked up to bone valley where he found the meadow we had been told of completely overgrown with trees.  Things change.  He then came back to the campground where he caught a fat ten inch rainbow (it seems they suddenly put on a great deal of weight on reaching that threshold size) just before I arrived.  Although neither Jeff nor Bob had as good a day of catching as I did, we were all agreed that it had been a glorious day.  The sun shined all day long and the temperature must have reached about sixty.  Where a sunbeam managed to penetrate the canopy and hit a relatively still spot in the stream the bottom shone with a breathtaking clarity.  The water, it seemed, was even clearer than the

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Response:

Question:

Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

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Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

This is a big question.  First, is there a flyfishing shop near where you live?  If so, stop in and start talking.  Look at the books, check into casting lessons, and generally ask for information.  That’s the best I can do with this one! Mark Faulkner

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Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

Hi My favorite book is the ‘L.L.Bean Fly Fishing Handbook’ by Dave Whitlock. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

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The Orvis Flyfishing Guide by Tom Rosenbaugh is a good starter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can someone give me advise on how to go about learning the art of fly fishing?  How about any good books on the basics?  Thanks

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Question:

If you like mailing lists try this one, it has about 800 members and you will receive up to 150 e-mails per day.  Leave your flames, off topic subjects, fights and swearing at home. http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/list.htm — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Wading Boots, Making Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

the majority of those messages have zip to do with flyfishing or tying. Much of it is aimless chit chat and worse. I subscribed for a few weeks and gave it up after my mail box was crammed full of useless drivel only a cut above spam. I am on Joe’s flyting list it is a much better group. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Ok Ralph,  I am willing to give to give Joe’s a look, what is the URL? — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Wading Boots, Making Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you like mailing lists try this one, it has about 800 members and you will receive up to 150 e-mails per day.  Leave your flames, off topic subjects, fights and swearing at home. http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/list.htm — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Wading Boots, Making Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh the majority of those messages have zip to do with flyfishing or tying. Much of it is aimless chit chat and worse. I subscribed for a few weeks and gave it up after my mail box was crammed full of useless drivel only a cut above spam. I am on Joe’s flyting list it is a much better group. Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Ralph H schrieb in Nachricht …

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If you like mailing lists try this one, it has about 800 members and you will receive up to 150 e-mails per day.  Leave your flames, off topic subjects, fights and swearing at home. http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/list.htm — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Wading Boots, Making Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh the majority of those messages have zip to do with flyfishing or tying. Much of it is aimless chit chat and worse. I subscribed for a few weeks and gave it up after my mail box was crammed full of useless drivel only a cut above spam. I am on Joe’s flyting list it is a much better group.

Hi Ralph, I must admit I was not overly impressed with the group either. I obviously tried it about the same time as you, after an invitation to do so here on ROFF, and a lot of the mail at the time concerned  your dissatisfaction with it as I remember ! <G  You are also perfectly right about the other content, large quantity of fairly aimless or personal stuff, not all that much on fly fishing. I unsubscribed after a couple of weeks as well, without bothering to express my diappointment though, thought it would be a waste of bandwidth.  If you have an address for a good tying or fishing list I would be most  interested. Thanks and tight lines ! Mike Connor

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to subscribe I believe you simply need to send an email to Ok Ralph,  I am willing to give to give Joe’s a look, what is the URL? —

Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Thanks for the info Ralph.  I recognize the mailing list from the URL you provided.  I was subscribed to it for about a month and the only thing I received was messages from people trying to "unsubscribe".  It  was very disappointing. — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Wading Boots, Making Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to subscribe I believe you simply need to send an email to Ok Ralph,  I am willing to give to give Joe’s a look, what is the URL? — Ralph H remove "(take_this_out)" for email reply.

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Thanks for the info Ralph.  I recognize the mailing list from the URL you provided.  I was subscribed to it for about a month and the only thing I received was messages from people trying to "unsubscribe".  It  was very disappointing.

That was an anomily. Someone didn’t know how to unsubscribe, another misunderstood an economical response for terseness, and it digressed there for a bit. I’ve been on it for a few months and found it informative and easy, with even some latitude for humor (a couple duct tape jokes). Being a pretty rank beginner, I feel I can ask anything, however dumb it seems, and get a kind answer.   pete

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I would like to invite each of you to join our Flyfishing and Flytying Mailing List.  We are experiencing some great traffic with some wonderful tips and tricks.  We also host a weekly irc chat session for mailing list members only.  Come join us for some great tips/tricks from such pro’s as:     Al Beatty     Neal Grose     Colin McPherson     Joyce Westphal put anything in the subject or message body area or your email.  You will be automatically subscribed. Thanks.  We look forward to having you join us JoeBoy

Response:

If you like mailing lists try this one, it has about 800 members and you will receive up to 150 e-mails per day.  Leave your flames, off topic subjects, fights and swearing at home. http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/list.htm — Ernie Harrison Fly Fishing Books, Blood Knot Machine Wading Boots, Making Rods, Fly Tying Box Go to:  http://users.ccnet.com/~emh

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Question:

hello- the deschutes can be tricky. one suggestion is to try to get a elks hair caddis to the fish working in back eddies. unless you are in a boat it can be tough getting a good drift-

snip Fishing from a floating devise is illegal on the lower Deschutes (below Warm Springs which includes Madras). Jim Jones For e-mail reply replace spam with sns

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Elkhairs caddis work most all the time down from Warm Springs thru Maupin. I really love PMDs in the summer.  Sometimes they hatch so thick they cover you with a carpet of wings! Always take a variety of other mayfly. When the water is low I love the stimmulators. Bill

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Two things: 1. It’s illegal to fish from a boat (the regs say "any floating device supporting the angler", or some such, ruling out rafts, pontoons, float tubes, … as well). A boat has the advantage of allowing you to cover more river, and to get to places which are difficult to reach on foot. 2. In general, you’ll have better luck with caddis larvae and pupae than with adults. I like to fish soft hacles or emergent sparkle pupae during a hatch… Stu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hello- the deschutes can be tricky. one suggestion is to try to get a elks hair caddis to the fish working in back eddies. unless you are in a boat it can be tough getting a good drift- but if you can figure it out you will be rewarded. when nymphing be sure to get a drag free dead drift. i have only used floating lines on the deschutes so i can’t help with sinking line techniques. i’m pretty sure there is a flyshop in madras- you can ask them what nymphs are working best. in the past i have done well with an olive serendipity. be sure and be on the water at dusk- sometimes the fish go after the caddis flies and it can be a blast. greg

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: hello- : the deschutes can be tricky. one suggestion is to try to get a : elks hair caddis to the fish working in back eddies. unless you : are in a boat it can be tough getting a good drift- but if you : can figure it out you will be rewarded. Ummm… perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought it was against the regs to fish from a boat on the Deschutes? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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How do – Just wondering if anybody has some suggestions for working the Deschutes around Mecca Flats, in Eastern Oregon.  Dry vs Wet?  Floater vs sinker?  I’m relatively new to fly fishing, though no stranger to the NW river systems.  I was down there last weekend, and only brought in one trout.  I’m by no means discouraged, but want to file this away as a learning experience, and was wondering if any kind souls here could give an example of a ‘Deschutes Recipe for success’ for this time of year. I did have a great time, but it’s always better with more fish in the hand! Thanks, Adrian B.

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Question:

I just moved to Los Angeles and I’m desperately looking for some rivers to fish on the weekends. If anyone could suggest some rivers to check out, I would greatly appreciate any help. Thank you, Brian

Check out Sespe Creek behind Ventura.  Fishermen’s Spot in Van Nuys can direct you.  Surf fishing for perch ani’t to bad either…

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I just moved to Los Angeles and I’m desperately looking for some rivers to fish on the weekends. If anyone could suggest some rivers to check out, I would greatly appreciate any help. Thank you, Brian

  You might try looking at the downey fly fishers page http://www.pacificnet.net/~jas/dff.htm they have monthly trips and fish reports that can be helpful john aydelotte

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just moved to Los Angeles and I’m desperately looking for some rivers to fish on the weekends. If anyone could suggest some rivers to check out, I would greatly appreciate any help. Thank you, Brian   You might try looking at the downey fly fishers page http://www.pacificnet.net/~jas/dff.htm they have monthly trips and fish reports that can be helpful john aydelotte

There are atleast six trout streams that are less than a two hour drive from downtown LA, that have sections where wild trout are protected by special regulations. Regulations vary, but typically include, artifical lures, barbless hooks, and 2 to 0 take limits, on the protected portions of the streams.  The fish are typically not very large but suprisingly, abundant, and do take flies. There are also many lesser known spots without special regulations hidden away in the mountains arround LA. The protected streams I am refering to are: Bear Creek, Deep Creek, Piru Creek, San Antonio Creek, Sespe Creek, and the West Fork of the San Gabriel River. These are typically, small streams with alot of tree cover. But each one offers more fishing that you can cover in a day. Unlike the streams in the sierras, these streams are open to fishing year round. There are FFF clubs all arround the LA area, you might want to check out the one in your area. — David V. Green WWW.GreenFly Culver City,  CA

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I just moved to Los Angeles and I’m desperately looking for some rivers to fish on the weekends. If anyone could suggest some rivers to check out, I would greatly appreciate any help. Thank you, Brian

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, I have just gone through a bunch of older fly rods and decided that I’d like to try them again. Unfortunately, they do not have any markings on them as to line weight. The rods are fiber glass and thus old enough not to have the AFTMA or older ABCDEFGH marking, so it probably will have to be trial and error before I get lines to work properly. Does anyone have suggestions as to how I can get the correct line weights without having to buy a whole bunch of lines? I remember using the rods 25 years ago and enjoying them, so I don’t just want to discard them for my current tackle. There is a 7′, 8′, and an 8 1/2′. The little one seems to overload with a 7weight and the longer rods appear not to load properly with the 7wt.        Frank —

Question:

Does anyone know if there is a rod building newsgroup? If not, does this newsgroup handle most of the rod building questions? Thanks for your help. Bruce — —                        Andrew Pea & Co., Inc               Information and Technology Consultants                 Publisher, The Prairienet Companion                               -=*=-               Office 217-352-7830 * FAX 217-359-1761

Response:

: Does anyone know if there is a rod building newsgroup? If not, does this : newsgroup handle most of the rod building questions? This group is perfect.  If you clearly state your topic in your, umm, topic. you will receive lots of help.  good luck. And I’m sorry about your name…it must have been a rough childhood.<g — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

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Bruce, another source of rod building info (or anything to do with ANY aspect of fly fishing) is for you to subscribe to the Flyfish list.  We have several professional rod builders on the list and plenty of other people building rods. These type of questions come up all the time.  To subscribe, do the following: Message:  subscribe flyfish (space) your name You will then receive an incredible amount of mail from the list, so enjoy!! Frank Church Goshen, In

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: Does anyone know if there is a rod building newsgroup? If not, does this : newsgroup handle most of the rod building questions? This group is perfect.  If you clearly state your topic in your, umm, topic. you will receive lots of help.  good luck.

Thanks, I’ll need all the help I can get! And I’m sorry about your name…it must have been a rough childhood.<g

Yeah, it was fun. And I defy anyone to come up with something new I havn’t heard — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.

– |      =     _                   |                                |^M M|

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Question:

Hi Mike, Good to meet you. As you can see I changed the subject line, mostly out of pity for Kauffman’s who took more of a pounding than I intended.  I was miffed at them for the Ross reel deal, and for the "ambience" I and several others noticed there.  They were an example of the moment and not really the topic. Hmm, not sure what this means…it isn’t a business philosophy by the way, just a mild rant at wannabes without sufficient motivation to pursue the knowledge and skills necessary to fish well on their own…meaning self study, (flyfishing has one of the oldest and most extensive literary traditions of any of our contemporary outdoor sporting endeavors) or participating in the plethora of schools, clinics and clubs available.  

I don’t have a snappy come back for that.  You have a point that probably serves a particular class of flyfisher.  I would ask your indulgence in that I really ain’t met many ‘o them thar book larned experts out in the stream.  I musta been too bizzy buckin’ hay that day.  Ok, mea culpa. I’m the guy you are referring to.  I never spent a day in the library I could spend on the water.  I prefer lessons over coffee (in the morning) or with a beer (well, mornings too, if the mood takes me) with someone who’s fun to listen to and might have some lore to share. I doubt that any retailer begrudges a purchaser information about the product being sold…What I see (and hear) are buyers that expect more, specifically they DEMAND information that is gained only through experience and personal observation, they are into instant gratification and unwilling to spend the time and energy to understand the resource, make their own observations and apply whatever skills they have to the sport.  Showing someone how to cast or tie a leader is one thing,  expecting a salesperson to direct YOU out of the 100 or so people a day he/she waits on to good water is another.

I have to agree with you there, but…I’ve never seen this demanding type, and certainly hope I’ve never been taken for one.  In retrospect, I don’t know how I could be, as the shop we had been discussing normally didn’t have the time to find out.  We may be talking about two different things here.  I was talking about how to tie a knot – and my criticism was for the poor or total lack of grace in dealing with just such a request.  So if you can accept that some folks just don’t get the same time and attention for such trivial pieces of knowledge, then perhaps you can agree.  I sometimes wax sympathetic thinking on what it must be like to be a guide that has to put up with jerks you refer to. But then, I couldn’t turn my only vice into work, either.  Hats off to those can. I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living. They are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and   socially daunting to most." It isn’t my living, it is my avocation.  I am in no way associated with Kaufmans or any other shop, guide business or manufacturer.  "Financially and socially daunting"…is that what the attraction is?  Or is it your philosophical position that ignorance is financially and socially daunting?

Missed your meaning on that.  Maybe you missed mine.  I fell in love with fly fishing due to some mentoring of a good friend and an inexplicable form of self flagellation, I guess.  How do you describe what it’s like to catch a fish on a fly… eh, that’s a whole ‘nother thread.  If you’re an ignorant hayseed like me, you begin with a preconceived notion fly fishing is for effete in-bred snobs who prefer this to be a sport of exclusion.  So I’m a party crasher, excuuuuse me.  After many years of being dedicated to it, I’m happy to report most are just ordinary men and women who enjoy the beauty of the elements and the elegance of the application. "Now what do you think a customer who is starting out on a limited budget wants?  Well hell no, it’s not a guided trip to Christmas Island!   Encouragement, helpful detailed advice and your knowledge is what he needs." Now I get it, it isn’t important or interesting enough to spend any of your own time on so all you need to do is borrow someone else’s research…preferably without paying anything in time or cash.

Depends on whether you want him for a customer when he can afford it, I guess. Up to you.  Again, I hope we’re talking about two different people.  I wouldn’t expect you to suffer abuse or being ripped off.  I was talking about someone starting out, who wasn’t born with an Orvis in their mouth.  My wife and I are counting on hitting Christmas Island.  Guess who will get our business (or more to the point, who will not)? Few things get my burner going like the guardian of holy secrets of fly   fishing. When I graduated to a Fenwick Eagle rod, Berkly reel and a pair of Redball waders, I braved the Yellowstone.  I didn’t have a clue.  Talk about being intimidated.  Time was precious and I needed to know what and how to fish it.  So I went up to a guy and asked.  He eyeballed me up and down, gave me that "oooooh, what a big spender you are" look, and went back to tying on his fly without a word." Maybe that is the problem, you think there are "holy secrets of flyfishing", a magic grail that is a substitute for personal observation and experience. Maybe the gentleman on the Yellowstone was giving you his "oooooh no, another dude who thinks his time is too precious to do his homework and acquire the necessary skills before coming here" look.

Well, I guess we got each other pegged.  I never went and got my flyfishing Phd.  Hope I never do.

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Charlie,     Do have kids… in their 20s now and they give others space on the stream… Learned fishing manners by age 10 or so.                 Prof. 8x  

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   We all better polish our social skills if we are going to keep, pursuing this wonderful pass time.  I can remember fishing Grand Lake Stream, Slate Run and even the Madison when I was the only person in sight, those days are GONE. I miss them but I’m learning to adapt by:  fishing mostly during the week, fishing water that is difficult to wade and (difficult to boat sometimes) from a specialized water craft, discovering places that have solitude and good fly fishing for different fish (smallmouth bass being my favorite other fish, ounce for ounce fights as good as any trout I’ve ever met.)    And although I’m a loner in many ways I’ve enjoyed interacting with other fisherman as I’ve grown up.  In fact last week and weekend I was on the Halston in Tenn. and it was fairly busy (sulfurs in mid day and all that) and I was impressed with the courtesy and friendship displayed by the east Tenn. folks (Like why don’t you try that 20" brown he’s got me stumped !!)   You had to duck flying hardware on the weekend but the local fly fisherman were very nice. Hats off to them.                                           regards leo

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: Isn’t there any one that goes fishing with an expectation of at least a : modicum of privacy and soltitude?  Apparently the current generation of : fly fishermen not only doesn’t understand the basic courtesy involved in : letting whoever is in the water fish it undisturbed, they also think that : a fishing license also entitles them to race up and down the stream : asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the : space of others verbally if not physically.   Well, there you go.  Wanna talk sociology?  Most, not all, good streams are located in rural areas.  In rural areas, it is considered rude to *not* acknowledge the presence of another.  I know this is not true in the urban environment, but it is proper behavior on most streams.  (Unless there are bank to bank fisherfolk, and if that is the case, why are you there?) Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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For every jerk out there who ignores you there are a 100 who are willing to share what they know. Ignore the jerks and keep looking. Bill A.

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: asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the : space of others verbally if not physically.   : that disturbing every streamside stranger with inane comments and : inquiries.  Why on earth do you think I should find my conversation with :                   :                                     Prof. 8x ‘ Hmmm, no kids, eh, Prof? :^) Charley

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Isn’t there any one that goes fishing with an expectation of at least a modicum of privacy and soltitude?  Apparently the current generation of fly fishermen not only doesn’t understand the basic courtesy involved in letting whoever is in the water fish it undisturbed, they also think that a fishing license also entitles them to race up and down the stream asking everyone "what are they takin" or "howzit goin?"  and invade the space of others verbally if not physically.   Suggest that a number of you try bowling or perhaps joining a tractor pull fan club as those activities seem more in keeping with your ideas of appropriate streamside conduct.  Comradeship/fellowship involves more that disturbing every streamside stranger with inane comments and inquiries.  Why on earth do you think I should find my conversation with the fish when I am in the stream less important that whatever it is you want to interrupt me with?  Do you exhibit the same rudeness to your associates or strangers in the office or at a cocktail party?                                       Prof. 8x

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Give Propps shop a try in Spokane.  Those guys will talk for hours and then walk away from a sale.  I’ve seen it happen a couple times. Rick

Hi, Rick. John Propp?  Nice guy.  I met him at Brown’s a year or two ago.  He said he built rods, but I had no idea he had a shop.  How’d I miss that?  Where is it at? Thanks, -Dick

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Hi Mike, Good to meet you. As you can see I changed the subject line, mostly out of pity for Kauffman’s who took more of a pounding than I intended.  I was miffed at them for the Ross reel deal, and for the "ambience" I, and judging my most of the other responses, several others notice there.  They were an example of the moment and not really the topic. Hmm, not sure what this means…it isn’t a business philosophy by the way, just a mild rant at wannabes without sufficient motivation to pursue the knowledge and skills necessary to fish well on their own…meaning self study, (flyfishing has one of the oldest and most extensive literary traditions of any of our contemporary outdoor sporting endeavors) or participating in the plethora of schools, clinics and clubs available.  

I don’t have a snappy come back for that.  You have a point that probably serves a particular class of flyfisher.  I would ask your indulgence in that I really ain’t met many ‘o them thar book larned experts out in the stream.  I musta been too bizzy buckin’ hay that day.  Ok, mea culpa. I’m the guy you are referring to.  I never spent a day in the library I could of spent on the water.  I prefer lessons over coffee (in the morning) or with a beer (well, mornings too, if the mood takes me) with someone who’s fun to listen to and might have some lore to share. I doubt that any retailer begrudges a purchaser information about the product being sold…What I see (and hear) are buyers that expect more, specifically they DEMAND information that is gained only through experience and personal observation, they are into instant gratification and unwilling to spend the time and energy to understand the resource, make their own observations and apply whatever skills they have to the sport.  Showing someone how to cast or tie a leader is one thing,  expecting a salesperson to direct YOU out of the 100 or so people a day he/she waits on to good water is another.

I have to agree with you there, but…I’ve never seen this demanding type, and certainly hope I’ve never been taken for one.  In retrospect, I don’t know how I could be, as the shop we had been discussing normally didn’t have the time to find out.  We may be talking about two different things here.  I was talking about how to tie a knot – and my criticism was for the poor or total lack of grace in dealing with just such a request.  So if you can accept that some folks just don’t get the same time and attention for such trivial pieces of knowledge, then perhaps you can agree.  I sometimes wax sympathetic thinking on what it must be like to be a guide that has to put up with jerks you refer to. But then, I couldn’t turn my only vice into work, either.  Hats off to those can. I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living. They are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and   socially daunting to most." It isn’t my living, it is my avocation.  I am in no way associated with Kaufmans or any other shop, guide business or manufacturer.  "Financially and socially daunting"…is that what the attraction is?  Or is it your philosophical position that ignorance is financially and socially daunting?

Missed your meaning on that.  Maybe you missed mine.  I fell in love with fly fishing due to some mentoring of a good friend and an inexplicable form of self flagelation, I guess.  How do you describe what it’s like to catch a fish on a fly… eh, that’s a whole ‘nother thread.  If you’re an ignorant hayseed like me, you begin with a preconceived notion fly fishing is for effete in-bred snobs who prefer this to be a sport of exclusion.  So I’m a party crasher, excuuuuse me.  After many years of being dedicated to it, I’m happy to report most are just ordinary men and women who enjoy the beauty of the elements and the elegance of the application. "Now what do you think a customer who is starting out on a limited budget wants?  Well hell no, it’s not a guided trip to Christmas Island!   Encouragement, helpful detailed advice and your knowledge is what he needs." Now I get it, it isn’t important or interesting enough to spend any of your own time on so all you need to do is borrow someone else’s research…preferably without paying anything in time or cash.

Depends on whether you want him for a customer when he can afford it, I guess. Up to you.  Again, I hope we’re talking about two different people.  I wouldn’t expect you to suffer abuse or being ripped off.  I was talking about someone starting out, who wasn’t born with an Orvis in their mouth.  My wife and I are counting on hitting Christmas Island.  Guess who will get our business (or more to the point, who will not)?

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[bandwidthectomy] : Now to take on your detractor: : I’ll tell you why.  They aren’t after your ability to sustain a living.  They : are starting out in a very intimidating sport, it is financially and : socially daunting to most.  I’ll bet they only bought the outlandishly : over priced flies to force you into a few seconds of hopeful conversation. Well put.  I can’t agree with Mike on this one, although it marks a first.  Guiding, like ffishing, is a career (or hobby) that should be built over years.  The good guide is always guiding and eventually he or she will be paid well for it.  And besides, you don’t just hang a sign up and declare yourself a guide worth hiring.  A bit like consulting…I had to give away a lot of free advice before anyone thought it worth paying for.  Same with teaching.  Should I simply ignore the poor students and focus on the ones I figure will succeed?  Many do, but I think not.  And for what it is worth, I think this is a good discussion.  I don’t want to wallow in sexist BS here, but I love a good sports shop.  Hang out and talk fishing with the guys.  Why does it matter what car one drives (to the shop, that is…I still say it is a goofball that drives a $30K car down a dusty, broken road and parks next to a stream.) : Yakima or the Silver Bow in Spokane.   Give Propps shop a try in Spokane.  Those guys will talk for hours and then walk away from a sale.  I’ve seen it happen a couple times. Rick — T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    |  These University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    |  opinions Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. |  are mine.  

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I have been looking for a good dependable fly-shop; however, I   have been warned against Kaufmans, as they were described as   being too uptight and impersonal. Not everybody. Talk to Rod. Steer clear of john hazen. he’s a wealth of information, but only willing to talk to big spenders or people who impress him that they know what they’re doing already. (I’ve fooled him a Sean Williams Student, Teacher, Angler Portland, Ore., USA

Actually, believe you mean John HaZEL.  There is a John HaZEN, but he works at the Valley Flyfisher in Salem.  You might be a bit more charitable in your analysis by substituting " regular customers with a long term relationship with the firm" or "buyers" as opposed to "big spenders".  Why is it that some buyers always expect to obtain years of hard earned experience for the price of a few flies without paying for it by spending their own time or hiring a guide…who by the way, has nothing to sell except his hard earned knowledge.   Probably the same people that sidle up to the doctor or lawyer a cocktail party and expect a diagnosis.  

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Actually, believe you mean John HaZEL.  There is a John HaZEN, but he works at the Valley Flyfisher in Salem.  

You’re right. Apologies to john hazen You might be a bit more charitable in your analysis by substituting " regular customers with a long term relationship with the firm" or "buyers" as opposed to "big spenders".

Well, yes and no. I agree that "big spenders" is perjoritive, but I can think of several situations when a buyer will be laying out big bucks on a new system, or people going on one of the travel packages will be in the store. Often, this is someone new to fishing, who wants (deserves?) special attention to accompany the large purchase. At those times, I can forget about receiving any service. And maybe rightly so. However, although my criticisms might have been unfair or harsh, they are not far from the truth.  Why is it that some buyers always expect to obtain years of hard earned experience for the price of a few flies without paying for it by spending their own time or hiring a guide…who by the way, has nothing to sell except his hard earned knowledge.   Probably the same people that sidle up to the doctor or lawyer a cocktail party and expect a diagnosis.  

Now its your turn to be a bit more charitable.  My statements were intended for a new angler who needs advice from professionals like those at Kaufmann’s. I think unfair to call their shop staff snobbish, because I don’t think it is, even john hazel.  On the other hand, I have seen people get the short end of the stick while in there. John and the others aren’t there by accident

Question:

I’ll be trying the Big Sur River just south of Monterey Calif. on Wednesday.   I figure I’ll use dark flies and quarter the stream.  It’s not a deep river so I’m going to use a floating line and let the weight of the fly do the work of getting down to the fish. So, what do you think?  Am I on the right track?

Hello Bob, We are all curious as to how you did.  If you caught one then you confirm the truism that sometimes a first time beginner can walk up to a river and catch a steelhead. Back to reality, our winter run steelhead are a very difficult quarry. They usually move quickly through the short lower sections where fishing is allowed.  Even if you can find them, you can pass a fly right in front of their nose time after time without provoking a response, although sometimes they will bite. And in many years like this one, the water isn’t clear enough for flies for months. They are a lot easier to catch on roe, but as a fly fisher I don’t find that very satisfying. I recommend you try the fall run on the Klamath and its tributaries, in late September or October.  They bite flies much more readily and often hold in riffles where fly fishers have an advantage. Good luck, Mark Vinsel

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Yes, that will work, but just remember, like with big trout, you must put the fly in front of their nose.  It might take something like a heavily weighted stonefly nymph to do the trick.  The rod wt. is OK, I have landed steelhead on my Orvis Western Spring Creek 4 wt.  If i am targeting steelhead though, I usually take a 6 or 7.  A fly I’ve had luck with on small strams that are ahallow and clear where you and the fish can see each other, is a Black Diamond (first tyed in Black Diamond, Washington).  If you’re interested and can’t find the pattern, give a yell – be glad to provide it. Burton Hawley, Corvallis, OR

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Although I’m an experienced flyfisher, I really don’t know anything about flyfishing for steelhead.  What are the best tactics and flies to use for steelhead?  What is the best equipment and setup?  I have 7wt equipment.  Is this sufficient? I’ll be trying the Big Sur River just south of Monterey Calif. on Wednesday.   I figure I’ll use dark flies and quarter the stream.  It’s not a deep river so I’m going to use a floating line and let the weight of the fly do the work of getting down to the fish. So, what do you think?  Am I on the right track? Thanks Bob Moss Landing, Ca.

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Lots of good books on the topic, especially Advanced Steelhead Flyfishing that seems to focus on your area.  Flies are typically bright streamers and wild marabou patterns, though some folks prefer to fish darker flies that actually look like something alive.  Salmon egg patterns are used alot. Typical tactic is to flip it out 45 degrees to current and drift, pulling line in to cover water completely before moving a few steps.  Floating line is common(specail steelhead line is flaoting and designed for winter usage), sometimes with longer leaders with heavy flys to sink. Monofilament shock obsorbers are common as well.  So much has been written, I couldn’t do it justice.  Like most new water, its probably good to get a guide. Tom      

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Although I’m an experienced flyfisher, I really don’t know anything about flyfishing for steelhead.  What are the best tactics and flies to use for steelhead?  What is the best equipment and setup?  I have 7wt equipment.  Is this sufficient? I’ll be trying the Big Sur River just south of Monterey Calif. on Wednesday.   I figure I’ll use dark flies and quarter the stream.  It’s not a deep river so I’m going to use a floating line and let the weight of the fly do the work of getting down to the fish. So, what do you think?  Am I on the right track? Thanks Bob Moss Landing, Ca.

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Yes you are.  I would suggest you get a copy of both Dry Line Steelhead by Bill McMillan and Greased Line Fishing for Salmon (and Steelhead) by Jock Scott.  They’re the bibles.

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Question:

SAN JUAN defiantly!  great float !!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be in Santa Fe on business and want to spend at least two days fly fishing. Does anybody out there have any recommendations on where to go? Thanks in advance. David

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David The San Juan would be a good idea if you want to fish for big fish on a heavily fished tailwater.   If you are interested in some mountain stream fishing I would recommend streams in the Jemez mountains just east of Santa Fe or some of the streams in the Taos area.  These are all within an hour or so of Santa Fe.  Check with a fly shop in Santa Fe or look at the following "http://www.thereellife.com/reellife/reports.htm". james – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be in Santa Fe on business and want to spend at least two days fly fishing. Does anybody out there have any recommendations on where to go? Thanks in advance. David

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I’ll be in Santa Fe on business and want to spend at least two days fly fishing. Does anybody out there have any recommendations on where to go? Thanks in advance. David

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San Juan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be in Santa Fe on business and want to spend at least two days fly fishing. Does anybody out there have any recommendations on where to go? Thanks in advance. David

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Any fly fishing in New Mexico in late January?

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Any advice about fishing  N.M. in late January?

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| Any advice about fishing  N.M. in late January? It really depends on where you’re going to be in New Mexico.  Its not a small state.  If you’re up north, try the San Juan river below Navajo dam. If the betis are out it can be good. drex         CIRT-ACS  University of New Mexico              

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