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<snipped tale of the south rising again

Yeah, the battle of Atlanta…all that soft wood made one HELL of a burn-out…. just too damn funny!! … and not a turgid word in it…

Yeah, it reads like the "Letter of the Month" in the geriatric edition of Penthouse (prominently placed right across from the ads for "Sta-Hard Cream, now in Geezer Strength!" and a Mercedes dealer that offers quantify discounts)….by the by, I couldn’t look – what DID Phyllis Diller’s "spread" look like…next month, Bea Arthur and Janet Reno wrestle in Metamucil!   <G TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -jeff

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   and, as promised, the continuum:    this is painful to relate, but integrity will prevail; and, besides, zimbo was there, and it won’t do to lie with him around.

Oh, lawdy, lawdy…and he had kids, too…well, maybe if you did him in SC, the prosecutors will fight over who gets to kill you long enough that you’ll be able to just go ahead and die of old age on the SOBs… TC, R …yep, I’m for the death penalty…and I wonder just how many shameless, graceless publicity-hound prosecutors seeking to feather a nest Mohammed can hold on his lap when they pull the switch…those who were with us on that day will hold their manhood, bar cards, and taxpayer-funded Steelcases cheap, to paraphrase…

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Oh, lawdy, lawdy…and he had kids, too…well, maybe if you did him in SC, … …yep, I’m for the death penalty…

You are SO unfunny. Why don’t you just prop up a photo of Jim Nabors and whack off instead of injecting your masturbatory and malevolent spew into a TR thread ? — Ken Fortenberry

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wayno writes:

(great report snipped) wayno  (yeah, steve, it’s maudlin; but to some of us, it’s priceless.)

You bet your sweet ass it is priceless!  Nice time, counselor.  The claves out west can not, do not, compare to the NC brand of camaraderie and friendship.   Glad to see ol’ Tom is up and about.  But if he is, who dat hell is protectin’ us from all those electronic sigs and such? Dave

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… The claves out west can not, do not, compare …

True. — Ken Fortenberry

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    and, as promised, the continuum:

<snipped nice TR Thanks to Wayno, Bob, and Wolfgang for the reports of debauchery and, well, some fishing. Keep ‘em coming. I appreciate you all spending the time to relate the experience. The reality of the gathering, however, will have to be left to the discretion of the reader.  :)  Good and strange tales, all. wayno  (yeah, steve, it’s maudlin; but to some of us, it’s priceless.)

‘Sounds like "priceless" to me. — TL, Tim And we haven’t even heard Zimbo’s or Mr. Miller’s rebuttals yet.

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Having seen you at work maestro, I know that any failings were not due to a lack of competence.  And you fish pretty good too. priceless TR, BTW – a real gem Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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    The claves out west can not, do not, compare to the NC brand of camaraderie and friendship.  

Maybe you should try camping with the Westerners sometime instead of hiding out in a cabin.

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rw writes: The claves out west can not, do not, compare to the NC brand of camaraderie and friendship.   Maybe you should try camping with the Westerners sometime instead of hiding out in a cabin.

Hiding out in a cabin?  Really?  I was at the camp ground most every day.  I wanted to fish with you, Bruce, Warren, and Willi.  If it wasn’t for Paul and John, I wouldn’t have fished with any of you western dudes.  For the first time ever at any of the many claves I’ve attended, I felt like there was a clique. Hell, I traveled 2400 miles only to fish with IJ, Charlie, and Jeff.   And they traveled 200 miles to fish with me.   Nothing wrong with that – I enjoyed their company – but it would have been nice to fish with someone who knew the area. Not complainin’, mind ya, just saying that you western dudes treat "outsiders" a little different than they are treated in NC.  (However, the SJ clave was not that way – Bruce and others went out of their way to help/guide.)  It is entrirely different at a NC clave, or a Penns or Maine Clave.   BTW, did you invite me to fish?  Did Willi.?  Warren?  Yeah, I didn’t think so.  The camaraderie and friendship didn’t go all the way around at HF.  I fished with my NC friends for 2 days (with the help of Paul and John), and the third day I opted to fish alone rather than join them again.  No one else invited me to fish, nor invited them to fish.  IJ was looking forward to fishing with Willi and perhaps picking up some tips.  It didn’t hapen, at least not while I was there. Just observations, of course….. Dave

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Maybe you should try camping with the Westerners sometime …

Bring bail money, extra garbage bags and a disguise. You wouldn’t want to be associated with some of the "camping" that goes on in our National Forest campgrounds at a western ‘clave. — Ken Fortenberry

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Ken Fortenberry writes: Maybe you should try camping with the Westerners sometime … Bring bail money, extra garbage bags and a disguise. You wouldn’t want to be associated with some of the "camping" that goes on in our National Forest campgrounds at a western ‘clave. — Ken Fortenberry

In all fairness, it wasn’t anything like that. The night of the cook-out was a little loud, but there were no complaints from the host camper.  Everyone’s campsite was clean and tidy.  There was no need for police, bail money, or diguises. Dave

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – rw writes: The claves out west can not, do not, compare to the NC brand of camaraderie and friendship.   Maybe you should try camping with the Westerners sometime instead of hiding out in a cabin. Hiding out in a cabin?  Really?  

Really. I was at the camp ground most every day.  

Being "at the camp" occasionally is not the same thing as "camping." To put this in perspective, Dave, YOU are the one dissing the Western Claves as not having enough "comaradamie." You’re entitled to your opinion, of course, but some opinions are best left unstated, or at least not hung out in public. I’m not hearing any Western ROFFers dissing the Eastern claves, aside from the occasional good natured joke about the tiny fish. As I’ve made many good friends at the Western Claves over the past three years, and have fished with some of them many times, and have entertained some of them at my home, and have taken them fishing on my homewaters, your perception of "comaraderie" doesn’t have much in common with mine. I wanted to fish with you, Bruce, Warren, and Willi.

The fact is that we made our decisions about where to fish the next day while sitting around the campfire, just before going to bed. You weren’t consciously excluded. You just weren’t around. If it wasn’t for Paul and John, I wouldn’t have fished with any of you western dudes.  

  For the first time   ever at any of the many claves I’ve attended, I felt like there was a clique.   Hell, I traveled 2400 miles only to fish with IJ, Charlie, and Jeff.    And they   traveled 200 miles to fish with me.   Nothing wrong with that – I enjoyed their   company – but it would have been nice to fish with someone who knew the area. I want to state for the record my opinion that Warren did a heroic job at the HF Clave. I don’t think he fished more than a handful of hours, because he was so busy rowing his drift boat for others. He was fanatical in his dedication to get as many different people on float trips as possible. If you didn’t fish with Warren it wasn’t because he was part of a clique. It was more likely that you didn’t want to get photographed in the Gink boat. By the way, what’s so bad about fishing with Paul and John in their drift boats? Isn’t that enough comaraderie for you? I didn’t get to fish with Paul, which I regret, but I had a fine day with John and Bruce on the Madison, tagging along with Willi and George and Warren. That was comaradamie in my book. Not complainin’, mind ya,

No, of course not. You would never complain about a lack of comaradamie at Western claves. just saying that you western dudes treat "outsiders" a little different than they are treated in NC.

That’s probably true. For example, Warren invited JeffC to leave his cabin way down in Aston and stay at the campground in Warren’s huge, empty tent (which, by the way, was available for anyone to use). JeffC ended up staying in Warren’s camper. The tent remained unoccupied. (However, the SJ clave was not that way – Bruce and others went out of their way to help/guide.)  

Unlike, for example, Warren, John, and Paul at HF? It is entrirely different at a NC clave, or a Penns or Maine Clave.   BTW, did you invite me to fish?  

What? You wanted to join me in my one-man pontoon boat? You wanted to come to the Bechler? Did Willi.?  Warren?  Yeah, I didn’t think so.

You simply weren’t there when spontaneous decisions were made around the campfire. And it’s outrageous that you’d accuse Warren of not making maximum effort to guide and row as many people as possible.  The camaraderie and friendship didn’t go all the way around at HF.  

No complaining, Dave.   IJ was looking forward to fishing with Willi and perhaps picking up some tips.  

Who wouldn’t? Did IJ think that Willi was going to seek him out? Maybe read his mind? Did IJ ask Willi to fish and did Willi refuse? Sheesh. It didn’t hapen, at least not while I was there.

One more time, Dave: You and IJ and Jeff Miller just weren’t there at the campfire during crunch time. Western Claves are different from Eastern Claves, IMO. They’re more spontaneous. I’ve only been to one Eastern Clave, coming all the way from California. It was a very pleasant experience, but I wasn’t barraged by offers to fish with others. Aside from the kindness of Walt, and the trip with Asadi and (incredibly) Fortenberry and Wolfgang, and fishing with Jim Bennett at Jurassic Park, I fished alone, and had a damn good time. I don’t recall you inviting me to fish at Waldo’s Spring Fling, and I’ve never held that against you until today.

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Maybe you should try camping with the Westerners sometime … Bring bail money, extra garbage bags and a disguise. You wouldn’t want to be associated with some of the "camping" that goes on in our National Forest campgrounds at a western ‘clave.

You are SO unfunny. Why don’t you just prop up a photo of Jim Nabors and whack off instead of injecting your masturbatory and malevolent spew into a TR thread ? HTH, R

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<snip

<more snippage Wolfgang, help me out here.  Are they going for distance, duration or style points? –Stan (still a newbie at pissing contests)

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Hiding out in a cabin?  Really?  I was at the camp ground most every day.  I wanted to fish with you, Bruce, Warren, and Willi.  If it wasn’t for Paul and John, I wouldn’t have fished with any of you western dudes.  For the first time ever at any of the many claves I’ve attended, I felt like there was a clique.

Dave,   I’m sorry you were disappointed with the HF clave.  I apologize for not being more outgoing.  I would have loved to fish with you and/or the other easterners for that matter.  I guess I had the feeling that the easterners wanted to fish with each other.  Also, I guess I spent time trying to make sure that Kevin was having a good time.  There were several westerners that I didn’t get to fish with either but I figured there was always next time. but it would have been nice to fish with someone who knew the area.

  That left me out.  The area was new to me too. BTW, did you invite me to fish?  Did Willi.?  Warren?  Yeah, I didn’t think so.  The camaraderie and friendship didn’t go all the way around at HF.  I fished with my NC friends for 2 days (with the help of Paul and John), and the third day I opted to fish alone rather than join them again.  No one else invited me to fish, nor invited them to fish.  IJ was looking forward to fishing with Willi and perhaps picking up some tips.  It didn’t hapen, at least not while I was there.

  Well, crap, I wish I would have known you were going to fish by yourself.  We sure would have asked you to go with us (Kevin and me). (Of course, we’re no Willi or Warren<G)   I enjoyed everyone at the clave and would have liked to spent time fishing with each one but, in a short period of time, it’s kind of hard to get organized & accomplish what one would like.  In fact, I’m not sure I ever got "invited" to fish with anyone.  It just seems to "happen".  I know one thing that went through my mind was to not "insert" myself into any drift boat fishing so that all those who wanted a chance to drift had the chance.  This is why I brought a couple of pontoon boats.   Give us another chance, Dave.  If I could set up a clave here in Buffalo, I guarantee I’d lay on some camaraderie:)  I’ve thought about trying to put together a Bighorn Mountain clave but the stream fishing here on the south end of the mountains is rather limited.  Mostly lake fishing and long hikes.  This just doesn’t seem like an area that would make a good clave.  At least, it wouldn’t be similar to any of the claves I’ve attended. Snoop — —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

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Ken Fortenberry writes: Bring bail money, extra garbage bags and a disguise. … In all fairness, it wasn’t anything like that. …

I’d like to think that my rants in this forum have had something to do with improving their "camping" behavior, but to tell ya the truth, it was probably the fines. — Ken Fortenberry

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rw writes: By the way, what’s so bad about fishing with Paul and John in their drift boats? Why do you always put words in peoples’ mouths, rw.  Where did I say it was "bad" fishing with Paul and John?  I *praise* them because they invited me to fish, something neither you, Warren, or Willi did.  

Unfortunately for you, it’s been snowing hard for 12 hours and I have nothing better to do until it stops than respond to this incredible load of horsepucky. Your attitude astounds me, Dave. You’re coming across like a primadonna. You seem to think it’s your role to be catered to, courted, and guided, like some sort of semi-royal personage. You aren’t willing to camp with the rest of us, but you complain that you’re excluded. Weird. What did you expect? That we’d get on the cell phones in the morning for a conference call? If you feel like Western Claves lack a sufficient degree of comaraderie, feel free stay out East where you’re more comfortable. We’ll muddle through somehow. It is bad form, though, to insult the Clavemeister (Warren) who put so much energy into this, and to insult other attendees who found the comaraderie to be just fine.

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rw writes: By the way, what’s so bad about fishing with Paul and John in their drift boats?

Why do you always put words in peoples’ mouths, rw.  Where did I say it was "bad" fishing with Paul and John?  I *praise* them because they invited me to fish, something neither you, Warren, or Willi did.   I found the HF clave to be a very big disappointment.  There were not that many fish taken, they were relatively small, and only a few folks were catching them.  But the biggest disappointment was the exclusion of some people from the plans.   I didn’t go to HF to catch lots of big fish – I can stay home and catch big brookies and big salmon.  I went because I was practically begged to go, and then I ended up never fishing with those I went to see.  Ironic, huh? As far as Gehkre’s boat…. well, I’m glad that Paul and John were there.  But there were days when Warren was not in the boat, days when Willi and Bruce and you weren’t in the boat.   You simply weren’t there when spontaneous decisions were made around the campfire.

Ahhh, herein lies the difference:  at a NC clave, if these "spontaneious decisions" were made, the non-attendees would have been notified and included post facto.   And it’s outrageous that you’d accuse Warren of not making maximum effort to guide and row as many people as possible.

I saw Warren row Jeffie and Charlie.  No one else.  And you do not have to "row" to fish HF.  I went off on my own on Wednesday my last day and caught fish.  It would have been nice if Warren or others could have been with me. But, I wasn’t around when all the "spontaneity" was going down.  Ya have watch out for all that spontaneity shit….. it happens, click, like that, and ya might get excluded.    The camaraderie and friendship didn’t go all the way around at HF.   No complaining, Dave.

Not complaining.  It’s *fact*. Who wouldn’t? Did IJ think that Willi was going to seek him out? Maybe read his mind? Did IJ ask Willi to fish and did Willi refuse? Sheesh.

I was present when IJ asked Willi, and Willi said *sure*. Western Claves are different from Eastern Claves, IMO. They’re more spontaneous.

You misspelled "cliquish". Aside from the kindness of Walt, and the trip with Asadi and (incredibly) Fortenberry and Wolfgang, and fishing with Jim Bennett at Jurassic Park, I fished alone, and had a damn good time. I don’t recall you inviting me to fish at Waldo’s Spring Fling, and I’ve never held that against you until today.

Lesseeee…..Walt, Asadi, Fortenberry, Wolfie, and Jim B.  went fishing with you.  Well, without using my toes, I count five.  That’s five more than I had at HF.  And I wouldn’t have invited you to fish at the Spring Fling, for I too was a newbie, having never fished those waters.  I was a follower, not a leader.  The two leaders that I was fortunate enough to have at HF, Paul and John, had never fished that water and did an outstanding job with us "easterners". Dave

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    i had planned to meet zimbo at early thirty on wed am for a partnered drive up to the smokies, but some damn judge had other ideas.  thus, i head out thurs am, into heavy fog, but with high expectations:  i had checked with my local smokies guru, and the streams were at normal heights; this happy news, combined with the prospect of overcast skies, made my heart fairly leap.  the sun is your enemy in the freestone pocket water in the old north state–or it always has been; more later about that.     around morganton, about halfway into a four hour trip, i saw a little miata up ahead on the interstate suddenly slow and pull to the shoulder of the interstate.  i slowed my approach, and watched in growing anticipation as this gorgeous brunette unfolded from the aforesaid mazda, waving for me to stop; i complied.  i got out, and walked slowly to the front of her car. our eyes locked for an instant, the electricity suddenly thick around us. she looked down, and i asked if i could be of assistance.  yes, she said, her voice tight with anticipation.  how far west are you going, she asked. all the way, darlin, i replied.  she fairly lept into my jeep.  she explained that she had run out of gas and money, and was trying to find a strange little dude with a mustache, curly hair, owl-like glasses,  and a terrible yankee accent–he had promised her a grand and all the cheese she could eat in return for her appearance at something he called a "clave". immediately, i realized her peril.  casually, i asked her what color mercedes was her favorite.  she put her hand…well, she murmured "silver", and said, breathlessly, turn here.  we were approaching the waynesville holiday inn exit.     two hours later, i arose from, well, an amazing exercise in physical and emotional expansion, and headed for the jeep.  as i closed the door, she said only two things, softly:  first, this:  you have …changed me;  then, this:  i want you to at least know my name–it’s lana…     next installment at eleven. your friend in the old north state wayno

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wayno writes: as i closed the door, she said only two things, softly:  first, this:  you have …changed me;  then, this:  i want you to at least know my name–it’s lana..

I certainly hope you went immediately to the nearest medical facility and got all the necessary shots.   I gotta watch out for you all the time……. Louie [who wishes he could have joined ya, but had better things to do.....d;o) ]

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   next installment at eleven. your friend in the old north state wayno

I wait with baited breath (bin eatin’ anchovies) By the way, you’re a cruel sumnabitch to break poor Wolfie’s heart that way.  From what I hear, he hasn’t been laid since Wisconsin discovered cheese. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://www.mountaincable.net/~pcharles/streamers/index.html

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    i had planned to meet zimbo at early thirty on wed am for a partnered drive up to the smokies, but some damn judge had other ideas.  thus, i head out thurs am, into heavy fog, but with high expectations:  i had checked with my local smokies guru, and the streams were at normal heights; this happy news, combined with the prospect of overcast skies, made my heart fairly leap.  the sun is your enemy in the freestone pocket water in the old north state–or it always has been; more later about that.

<snipped rest of, er, TR? I must admit that the best factual recollection (read: BS) has come from this anti-clave. Must be the NC air. Great entertainment for us who stayed home and raked leaves. — TL, Tim

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Not that there were any lies told here, but in case there weren’t, there was a big article on "Lana" in the Charlotte Tribune about a month ago and the wonderful success of the transgender operation. — Wayne To Fish is Human…To Release Divine!

(honest your honor, it couldn’t have been ME!! snipped) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –     next installment at eleven. your friend in the old north state wayno

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<snipped tale of the south rising again just too damn funny!! … and not a turgid word in it… jeff

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    i had planned to meet zimbo at early thirty on wed am for a partnered drive up to the smokies, but some damn judge had other ideas.  thus, i head out thurs am, into heavy fog, but with high expectations:  i had checked with my local smokies guru, and the streams were at normal heights; this happy news, combined with the prospect of overcast skies, made my heart fairly leap.  the sun is your enemy in the freestone pocket water in the old north state–or it always has been; more later about that.

    and, as promised, the continuum:     this is painful to relate, but integrity will prevail; and, besides, zimbo was there, and it won’t do to lie with him around.     i fished snowbird creek in the "hatchery supported" section on the afternoon of my arrival, under a canopy of thick clouds, and didn’t catch one fish.  first time for that, ever, on that creek.  in casting about for excuses, i have come up with the following:  1.  the creek hadn’t been stocked in a long time, and the fish had been taken out, or never put in the section we fished; 2.  the drastic change in weather from wednesday’s clear, warmer status had put the fish off the feed. 3.  absolutely nothing was coming off the water, except a few tiny (i mean barely visible) midges, so the trout were sulking; 4  the , um, aura of lana was still on or about my body, and the fish were simply stunned.  anyone got any ideas?  garden variety incompetence is not an acceptable suggestion.     oh, well, back to the cabin downstream, where zimbo and i fished a short stretch just below our digs.  some excitement ensued when a very large brown swirled at my dayglo indicator, his back out of the water.  we threw everything save a blasting cap at his home thereafter, but nada.     i saw tom brown emerge out on the front porch with a glass in his hand, and the smoky scent of dalwhinnie floated across the ever shortening distance as i made my way, relentlessly, to the safety of russia’s finest beverage.  the evening was saved.     next morning zimbo and i arrived at the fontana boat dock in accordance with the plan to rent a boat, run across the lake to the mouth of hazel creek, and hook up with the survivors, if any there were, of the fabled death march.  turns out we had to rent two small jon boats, and zimbo had never even cranked a motor.  i took him for a brief lesson, and the boy responded with his typical esprit de corps and innate physical talents.  we were sliding up to a mooring at the mouth of hazel in thirty minutes.  the foilage was brilliant, at its peak of color, in fact; about ten days later than usual. on the ride across the lake, i considered my good fortune at being a resident of a state that displays such an amazing variety of natural features.     `my happy reveries were cut short with our arrival at the creek mouth, where the unsettling odor of cheddar hung heavy in the damp air.  sure enough, there he was, acerbic as always, but a survivor if there ever was one:  mama siebeniech’s gift to the world of forensic science, and the scourge of vermin throughout the upper midwest. and fishing upstream; and the bad:  the damn place was thick with preppies. sure enough, as we walked upstream in search of the boys, we passed what seemed like dozens of the earnest young faces of norman’s children, standing uncertainly in the ribbons of water, waving their rods limply through an arc of about 180 degrees, dropping the fly in the flow behind them, piling the line across a couple different runs in front of them, and generally scaring the shit out of every rainbow in graham county.     about a mile above the mouth, we passed this guy fishing who actually knew what he was doing, and i wondered if he could be patton, whom i had never met.  i discounted that possibility when i realized that this individual looked exactly like an accountant.  by noon, we had arrived, as scheduled, at the second bridge.  just above that structure, at the creek’s edge, stood none other than the best damned domestic lawyer in the old north state, the fabled and feared jeffie miller.  we chatted for a while about the deprivations endured during the last few days of camping on the creek; that is, the shortage of whisky, and zimbo and i moved upstream hoping to find some water that had not yet been subjected to the thrashing of spoiled children.  well, to make a long  and embarrassing story mercifully short–we caught two fish each, neither longer than six inches.  it was my worst day in thirty one years of fishing hazel creek.  we all met at the end of the fishing day by the side of one of the most beautiful streams on this planet, to bitch and moan.  bob patton turned out to be the accountant, and a damn good guy.     so, back to the cabin for more of the same:  sniper stories (thank god for the capture), the bounty of tom’s crock pot cuisine, and the crisp taste of a stoli see-through.  about seven or so, zimbo became sufficiently bored with the society of hopeless alchoholics that he was driven to return home–a six hour drive back to the raleigh area.  his conduct might be considered irrational, but only by those who have never seen his wife.  wow.     the bottom line is this:  who gives a damn about the fishing.  the other stuff is where it’s at.  right boyos?     here’s to ya, guys, from your friend in the old north state wayno  (yeah, steve, it’s maudlin; but to some of us, it’s priceless.)

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …  snip … …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not be, an apostrophe in any river name. Why not? Because to do so indicates it is owned by the person.  An oft-used example, and an easy way to remember, is Clarks River, named after William Clark – it isn’t his, and never was – IOW, it isn’t, nor was it ever, "Clark’s River."  

I think the possessive represents who owns the discovery, not who actually owns the river.  We have a bird out here called the Clark’s Nutcracker.  It was named by Clark. Besides, if you remove the apostrophe and keep the s it becomes a plural, not at all what was intended. Chas

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noted diver F Reid notes: out here got it bass ackwards.  The hatches happen when the stinking sun is high and bright!

Come on up to the Tulpehocken when it rains, it is close to the only time I fish the place. I would note that cloudy(not rainy) days are by far the best on Penns for just the reasons Willi observed.                    just wanted to post                    into a thread whose                    title included Waynes Crabs,                    Tom

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …  snip … …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not be, an apostrophe in any river name. Why not? Because to do so indicates it is owned by the person.  An oft-used example, and an easy way to remember, is Clarks River, named after William Clark – it isn’t his, and never was – IOW, it isn’t, nor was it ever, "Clark’s River."

BUZZ! Apostrophes are used to denote possession, literal or figurative.  Thus, Deere’s tractors are those designed and or built by a company named after and or founded by one John Deere.  Presumably (I know little of the history of this company or its products) John Deere himself once owned the entire company or at least a controlling interest.  At that time it would have been natural to presume that all the tractors built by the company "belonged" to Mr. Deere in some reasonable literal sense.  After his demise (or other divestiture in the company) none of the tractors would have belonged to him literally but still did so in a figurative sense.  It seems unnatural to those of us familiar with said products to refer to them as Deere’s tractors because common usage dictates that they be referred to as "John Deere" tractors, but there are many other products who’s names do or at least could rely on the possessive apostrophe.  Uncle Ben’s rice comes immediately to mind. Now, I don’t know whether the apostrophe is actually used on this product (instant rice is an abomination……it is not allowed in my pantry), but I suspect that no one would object to its use in this context……whether or not there ever actually WAS an uncle Ben to whom it may or may not have belonged.  There are many other examples of the ambiguity of ownership.  Beethoven may once have owned a fifth or even several, but the odds are that he drank the several (thus making ownership moot while doing nothing to resolve the question of apostrophe’s) and, given copyright conventions (or to put it more bluntly, the lack thereof) of his day, the other one pretty much ceased to belong to him the day it was first aired in public.   And what are we to make of the apostrophe’s use?  What exactly, does it own? Wolfgang

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     …  snip …    …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not  be, an apostrophe in any river name.    Why not?    Because to do so indicates it is owned by the person.  An oft-used  example, and an easy way to remember, is Clarks River, named after  William Clark – it isn’t his, and never was – IOW, it isn’t, nor was it  ever, "Clark’s River."       I think the possessive represents who owns the discovery, not who   actually owns the river.  We have a bird out here called the Clark’s   Nutcracker.  It was named by Clark.     Besides, if you remove the apostrophe and keep the s it becomes a   plural, not at all what was intended. I agree with you Chas. From what I understand, not using an apostrophe was just a convention that was adopted by topographers. I also think that it’s one of those rules that is "violated" so much that either usage is now correct. Willi

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …  snip … …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not be, an apostrophe in any river name. Why not? Because to do so indicates it is owned by the person.  An oft-used example, and an easy way to remember, is Clarks River, named after William Clark – it isn’t his, and never was – IOW, it isn’t, nor was it ever, "Clark’s River."   I think the possessive represents who owns the discovery, not who actually owns the river.  

Er, no.  For example, if one actually owns the body of water (such as a pond or lake), then it would be "Clark’s Pond," as opposed to one simply named after someone. We have a bird out here called the Clark’s Nutcracker.  It was named by Clark.

Are you sure?  Maybe it named for Clark’s Nutcracker… Besides, if you remove the apostrophe and keep the s it becomes a plural, not at all what was intended. Chas

You’re actually a pair of Cha? TC, R

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …  snip … …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not be, an apostrophe in any river name. Why not? Because to do so indicates it is owned by the person.  An oft-used example, and an easy way to remember, is Clarks River, named after William Clark – it isn’t his, and never was – IOW, it isn’t, nor was it ever, "Clark’s River." BUZZ! Apostrophes are used to denote possession, literal or figurative.  Thus, Deere’s tractors are those designed and or built by a company named after and or founded by one John Deere.  Presumably (I know little of the history of this company or its products) John Deere himself once owned the entire company or at least a controlling interest.  At that time it would have been natural to presume that all the tractors built by the company "belonged" to Mr. Deere in some reasonable literal sense.  After his demise (or other divestiture in the company) none of the tractors would have belonged to him literally but still did so in a figurative sense.  It seems unnatural to those of us familiar with said products to refer to them as Deere’s tractors because common usage dictates that they be referred to as "John Deere" tractors, but there are many other products who’s names do or at least could rely on the possessive apostrophe.  Uncle Ben’s rice comes immediately to mind. Now, I don’t know whether the apostrophe is actually used on this product (instant rice is an abomination……it is not allowed in my pantry), but I suspect that no one would object to its use in this context……whether or not there ever actually WAS an uncle Ben to whom it may or may not have belonged.  There are many other examples of the ambiguity of ownership.  Beethoven may once have owned a fifth or even several, but the odds are that he drank the several (thus making ownership moot while doing nothing to resolve the question of apostrophe’s) and, given copyright conventions (or to put it more bluntly, the lack thereof) of his day, the other one pretty much ceased to belong to him the day it was first aired in public.   And what are we to make of the apostrophe’s use?  What exactly, does it own? Wolfgang

BZZT! Both John Deere and Uncle Ben’s are trade names, and so, they are meaningless as to the grammar, spelling, etc. – you could have "Clark’s Klarcs Barz," whose slogan is "Made with Uncle Ben’z Arrowz, so eat ‘em on Jonn Deare’s tractors…" TC, R

Response:

   Trout are much more likely to feed on the surface during cloudy weather.        Willi             Yah know Willi, I grew up with that.  From California and Korea to the UK     and Germany.  Fishing ain’t worth a damn unless its cloudy with a bit of     wind to break up the surface.  Came out the the right coast, didn’t go     fishing unless the day was cloudy so I could hit a hatch.  Guess what, these     suckers out here got it bass ackwards.  The hatches happen when the stinking     sun is high and bright!  Jeez-O-Pete!  I was here a year before I found a     decent hatch.  Can’t they do anything right out here? There was an argument about this earlier on ROFF but I believe that some insects hatch out more prolifically during inclement weather. BWO’s fit into this catagory. However, agree with that or not, trout don’t like bright direct sunlight. Especially in low clear water, trout are reluctant to come out and establish feeding  stations to surface feed on a bright sunny day. The other day was a good example. I was out early and the fish were avidly feeding on emerging Trico duns. Then the sun became direct on the water and the feeding stopped even though the spinner fall that happened later resulted in more bugs on the water than when the duns were hatching and they were easier pickings because they are dead. Willi Willi

Response:

in jan 2001, wally and i resorted to traveling up to tennessee to fish the watauga tailwater.  all the streams in the mountains of nc were frozen over and unfishable – really.  the only time we saw bugs coming off (wally says they were bwo) was when the sun shone for a while.  the fish would get active and we’d catch the hell out of them.  then the sun would go behind the clouds and the hatch would stop, along with the catch. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Trout are much more likely to feed on the surface during cloudy weather.   Willi   Yah know Willi, I grew up with that.  From California and Korea to the UK   and Germany.  Fishing ain’t worth a damn unless its cloudy with a bit of   wind to break up the surface.  Came out the the right coast, didn’t go   fishing unless the day was cloudy so I could hit a hatch.  Guess what, these   suckers out here got it bass ackwards.  The hatches happen when the stinking   sun is high and bright!  Jeez-O-Pete!  I was here a year before I found a   decent hatch.  Can’t they do anything right out here? There was an argument about this earlier on ROFF but I believe that some insects hatch out more prolifically during inclement weather. BWO’s fit into this catagory. However, agree with that or not, trout don’t like bright direct sunlight. Especially in low clear water, trout are reluctant to come out and establish feeding  stations to surface feed on a bright sunny day. The other day was a good example. I was out early and the fish were avidly feeding on emerging Trico duns. Then the sun became direct on the water and the feeding stopped even though the spinner fall that happened later resulted in more bugs on the water than when the duns were hatching and they were easier pickings because they are dead. Willi Willi

Response:

yeah, yeah…but i was talking about fork flies…<g. jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …  snip … …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not be, an apostrophe in any river name. Why not? Because to do so indicates it is owned by the person.  An oft-used example, and an easy way to remember, is Clarks River, named after William Clark – it isn’t his, and never was – IOW, it isn’t, nor was it ever, "Clark’s River." BUZZ! Apostrophes are used to denote possession, literal or figurative.  Thus, Deere’s tractors are those designed and or built by a company named after and or founded by one John Deere.  Presumably (I know little of the history of this company or its products) John Deere himself once owned the entire company or at least a controlling interest.  At that time it would have been natural to presume that all the tractors built by the company "belonged" to Mr. Deere in some reasonable literal sense.  After his demise (or other divestiture in the company) none of the tractors would have belonged to him literally but still did so in a figurative sense.  It seems unnatural to those of us familiar with said products to refer to them as Deere’s tractors because common usage dictates that they be referred to as "John Deere" tractors, but there are many other products who’s names do or at least could rely on the possessive apostrophe.  Uncle Ben’s rice comes immediately to mind. Now, I don’t know whether the apostrophe is actually used on this product (instant rice is an abomination……it is not allowed in my pantry), but I suspect that no one would object to its use in this context……whether or not there ever actually WAS an uncle Ben to whom it may or may not have belonged.  There are many other examples of the ambiguity of ownership.  Beethoven may once have owned a fifth or even several, but the odds are that he drank the several (thus making ownership moot while doing nothing to resolve the question of apostrophe’s) and, given copyright conventions (or to put it more bluntly, the lack thereof) of his day, the other one pretty much ceased to belong to him the day it was first aired in public.   And what are we to make of the apostrophe’s use?  What exactly, does it own? Wolfgang

Response:

Trout are much more likely to feed on the surface during cloudy weather. Willi

Yah know Willi, I grew up with that.  From California and Korea to the UK and Germany.  Fishing ain’t worth a damn unless its cloudy with a bit of wind to break up the surface.  Came out the the right coast, didn’t go fishing unless the day was cloudy so I could hit a hatch.  Guess what, these suckers out here got it bass ackwards.  The hatches happen when the stinking sun is high and bright!  Jeez-O-Pete!  I was here a year before I found a decent hatch.  Can’t they do anything right out here? — Frank Reid Reverse email to reply

Response:

…  snip … …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not be, an apostrophe in any river name.

Why not? Chas

Response:

you’re one evil geezer…<g jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff Miller writes: …i’m in idaho pre-trip jitter mode. just ordered a sampler platter of flies from harry mason he selected as good for hf… also, my pal waldo sent me a huge selection on approval Well, I hope there will be some dry fly action, Jeffy.  It’s beginning to look like Fortenberry was right.  The long term forcast calls for "snow showers" in that part of Idaho during the clave.  Damn, Fortenberry, FORTENBERRY, was right.  Looks like I’m gonna hafta rent the Humvee instead of the Lincoln.  Why didn’t Warren warn us about this?   d;o)

Response:

…  snip … …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not be, an apostrophe in any river name. Why not?

Because to do so indicates it is owned by the person.  An oft-used example, and an easy way to remember, is Clarks River, named after William Clark – it isn’t his, and never was – IOW, it isn’t, nor was it ever, "Clark’s River."   TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chas

Response:

i will self-flagellate while facing southwest…<g jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …i’m in idaho pre-trip jitter mode. just ordered a sampler platter of flies from harry mason he selected as good for hf… also, my pal waldo sent me a huge selection on approval that he thought might garner a look from an idaho trout… thanks fellers… it’ll be fun fishin the flies you picked, and i can blame your poor selections if i don’t do too well. <g oh…and wayne hart sent me a box of his "crab" flies to test on the carolina redfish this fall.  an interesting creation, and can’t wait to give em a try. thanks wayne… thought i’d give a public "thank you" simply to underscore a bit of the benefits of this place. jeff Ah…from the subject header, I thought your esteemed colleague had been, er, "Mercedes shopping in all the wrong places…"  Weren’t sure why you were thanking him, though… <G…outside the box, doncha know… TC, R …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not be, an apostrophe in any river name.

Response:

…i’m in idaho pre-trip jitter mode. just ordered a sampler platter of flies from harry mason he selected as good for hf… also, my pal waldo sent me a huge selection on approval that he thought might garner a look from an idaho trout… thanks fellers… it’ll be fun fishin the flies you picked, and i can blame your poor selections if i don’t do too well. <g oh…and wayne hart sent me a box of his "crab" flies to test on the carolina redfish this fall.  an interesting creation, and can’t wait to give em a try. thanks wayne… thought i’d give a public "thank you" simply to underscore a bit of the benefits of this place. jeff

Response:

Jeff Miller writes: …i’m in idaho pre-trip jitter mode. just ordered a sampler platter of flies from harry mason he selected as good for hf… also, my pal waldo sent me a huge selection on approval

Well, I hope there will be some dry fly action, Jeffy.  It’s beginning to look like Fortenberry was right.  The long term forcast calls for "snow showers" in that part of Idaho during the clave.  Damn, Fortenberry, FORTENBERRY, was right.  Looks like I’m gonna hafta rent the Humvee instead of the Lincoln.  Why didn’t Warren warn us about this?   d;o)

Response:

Here’s a couple items for the Henry’s Forkers: An updated report has been posted to HF Anglers website: http://www.henrysforkanglers.com The flow is working it’s way down, but it’s still higher than last September so far.  900 cfs in Island Park would be ideal for waders: http://waterdata.usgs.gov/id/nwis/uv/?site_no=13042500&PARAmeter_cd=0… 060 And if anyone wants to send me some flies or a new 3 pc, 9′ 5 weight XP, I’ll try em out on the Fork  The XP would be especially handy. bruce h

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -…i’m in idaho pre-trip jitter mode. just ordered a sampler platter of flies from harry mason he selected as good for hf… also, my pal waldo sent me a huge selection on approval that he thought might garner a look from an idaho trout… thanks fellers… it’ll be fun fishin the flies you picked, and i can blame your poor selections if i don’t do too well. <g oh…and wayne hart sent me a box of his "crab" flies to test on the carolina redfish this fall.  an interesting creation, and can’t wait to give em a try. thanks wayne… thought i’d give a public "thank you" simply to underscore a bit of the benefits of this place. jeff

Ah…from the subject header, I thought your esteemed colleague had been, er, "Mercedes shopping in all the wrong places…"  Weren’t sure why you were thanking him, though… <G…outside the box, doncha know… TC, R …oh, and a slight nit to pick – there is not, or rather, should not be, an apostrophe in any river name.

Response:

…i’m in idaho pre-trip jitter mode. just ordered a sampler platter of flies from harry mason he selected as good for hf… also, my pal waldo sent me a huge selection on approval Well, I hope there will be some dry fly action, Jeffy.  It’s beginning to look like Fortenberry was right.  The long term forcast calls for "snow showers" in that part of Idaho during the clave.  Damn, Fortenberry, FORTENBERRY, was right.  Looks like I’m gonna hafta rent the Humvee instead of the Lincoln.  Why didn’t Warren warn us about this?  

Can you believe that long term forecast!  The Climate Prediction Center shows above average temps and above average precip for that time frame.   http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/814day/ All in all, it looks like good streamer weather…..

Response:

RockTrout writes: Can you believe that long term forecast!  The Climate Prediction Center shows above average temps and above average precip for that time frame.  

Fortenberry knows that region very, very well.  He spent all of his adult life there — what…. two years?…. so I’m *sure* it’s gonna snow.  I wish Warren had warned us.   d;o)

Response:

    Can you believe that long term forecast!  The Climate Prediction   Center shows above average temps and above average precip for that time   frame.     http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/814day/     All in all, it looks like good streamer weather….. Long range forecasts like that are wrong as often as they’re right but cloudy days would be great for dry fly fishing for a number of reasons. IMO, BWO hatches are much heavier when there is cloud cover. The Olives will probably be the most prolific hatch while we are at Henrys. Trout are much more likely to feed on the surface during cloudy weather. The trout are less "fussy" during cloudy weather. You don’t need as good of a match. Trout are less spooky and wary and you can usually go with heavier tippet. If it’s cloudy, I’ll be fishing the ranch. Willi

Response:

  …i’m in idaho pre-trip jitter mode.     just ordered a sampler platter of flies from harry mason he selected as   good for hf… I think you’ll be pleased with Harry’s flies. The flies he offers are VERY well tied and many are different from "normal" ties which is especially good, IMO, on hard fished water like Henrys Fork. Willi

Response:

  Here’s a couple items for the Henry’s Forkers:     An updated report has been posted to HF Anglers website:     http://www.henrysforkanglers.com     The flow is working it’s way down, but it’s still higher than last September   so far.  900 cfs in Island Park would be ideal for waders:     http://waterdata.usgs.gov/id/nwis/uv/?site_no=13042500&PARAmeter_cd=0…   060     And if anyone wants to send me some flies or a new 3 pc, 9′ 5 weight XP,   I’ll try em out on the Fork  The XP would be especially handy. You know there are trout rods in other than five weight, you have enough 5 weights. You need to broaden your arsenal. Willi

Response:

What I need is a bunch of stupid trout It’s raining here right now- hoping to hit the Clarks Fork tonight- I understand the river has been something close to phenominal the last few days jh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Can you believe that long term forecast!  The Climate Prediction   Center shows above average temps and above average precip for that time   frame.   http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/814day/   All in all, it looks like good streamer weather….. Long range forecasts like that are wrong as often as they’re right but cloudy days would be great for dry fly fishing for a number of reasons. IMO, BWO hatches are much heavier when there is cloud cover. The Olives will probably be the most prolific hatch while we are at Henrys. Trout are much more likely to feed on the surface during cloudy weather. The trout are less "fussy" during cloudy weather. You don’t need as good of a match. Trout are less spooky and wary and you can usually go with heavier tippet. If it’s cloudy, I’ll be fishing the ranch. Willi

Response:

 I would agree, if the clouds roll in I would think the BWO would be the ticket. The Wind, IMO, is more of a problem than no bugs…. HM – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Can you believe that long term forecast!  The Climate Prediction Center shows above average temps and above average precip for that time frame. http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/814day/ All in all, it looks like good streamer weather….. Long range forecasts like that are wrong as often as they’re right but cloudy days would be great for dry fly fishing for a number of reasons. IMO, BWO hatches are much heavier when there is cloud cover. The Olives will probably be the most prolific hatch while we are at Henrys. Trout are much more likely to feed on the surface during cloudy weather. The trout are less "fussy" during cloudy weather. You don’t need as good of a match. Trout are less spooky and wary and you can usually go with heavier tippet. If it’s cloudy, I’ll be fishing the ranch. Willi

Response:

Question:

Thank you for your time, James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist amateur is right.  you’re an idiot plain and simple.  you are misinformed on fishery issues.  try doing some reading, and not just PETAphile propoganda. good day you twit, chris

Don’t hold back Chris, what do you really think?  :-) It’s probably a troll, take it easy, laugh at all the ignorant statements, it’s Friday by joe, time to fish tomorrow.  I think I’ll fish with some of them thar computer designed flies…so I too can catch fish like a pro, I’m still chuckling.  :-) Later,      - Ken — "Time is but the stream I go a-fishin in. I drink at it, but while I drink I see the sandy bottom and detect how shallow it is. It’s thin current slides away, but eternity remains."     – H.D. Thoreau

Response:

(snipped) <<Maybe we should start thinking about limiting people’s rights to breed? What is this?  A rehearsal for Loony Tunes.   Dave LaCourse

Response:

I promise that, when I see a hungry child working a pool, I’ll move on…

…and by all means, help him with technique, if he is struggling. Shoot, I’ll give him a few flies, although I have no clue where to get those computer made ones. Probably have to check on Gerkhes website for those.                                    Tom Littleton

Response:

You have many friends here. Ha, ha.  LOL!  OK, I can tell that T-Bone isn’t interested in my discussion.  That’s fine, if I can change one mind, or even get someone to think about the problem, my post will not be in vain. James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist

        by this post, you show yourself to be hopelessly dense.  tim walker has honored your positions at the expense of his cyberpopularity for years, you pig headed twit.  re-read his post, fool. wayno

Response:

I promise that, when I see a hungry child working a pool, I’ll move on to the next one. Unless, of course, it is catch and release in which case I’ll have to report him if he’s eating<g. You and timbo have a real nice day. — Charlie.

Where I fish, it is almost impossible to bring in and unhook a little native brook trout before some dirty-faced, rag-wearing, famine-stricken, third-world youngster sinks a fork into its side.  It’s really starting to piss me off. First, I used pepper spray.  Now, I’m carrying the Combat Commander. Bob Scott

Response:

(snip) I understand some people’s idea of nature is different than mine. I’ve stated mine (at least I hope I have), and am willing to listen to anyone who disputes the effects of flyfishing on the world’s fish population.

        no, buster, what you really want is to be "liberal", "different", "confrontational"; and, more than anything else, possesed of a feeling of superiority over the unwashed masses of fishermen. James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist (and still an engineer!)

        wayno

Response:

I am terribly concerned about the contributing effects of fishing, and in particular the effects of sport flyfishing on the imminent extinction of many of our world’s greatest natural treasures.  

[snip] This post must be a troll. It’s hard to believe that anyone could be so wrong about so many things.

Response:

I think the operative word here is AMATEUR!  I promise you I could write you a page of anti-fishing nonsense which would make you want to sell your house and send me all your money to save the planet.  A single web site,  a single appeal, a single slant on any environmental problem is sure to incite some individuals to post messages, send donations, and even in some cases take anti-social behavior (tree spiking, etc.) as a mission.  Perhaps this discussion belongs better with Greenpeace, and PETA where a wider audience of people looking for a life will eagerly join in to support.  If you’re looking to talk multi-use management, I am not an AMATEUR.  Send me your donations today Jim, I will save your personal piece of this planet. Wayne To fish is human…to release divine. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am terribly concerned about the contributing effects of fishing, James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist

Response:

<<[snip timster type nanner] not to mention the fact that we take food off a hungry child’s plate?

I promise that, when I see a hungry child working a pool, I’ll move on to the next one. Unless, of course, it is catch and release in which case I’ll have to report him if he’s eating<g. You and timbo have a real nice day. Yeah, I too wondered about that.  "Food off a hungry child’s plate?" Dave LaCourse

Response:

Jim Andrews writes <massively uniformed drivel snipped James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist

You got that part right, Jim. Amateur to the point of near ignorance, from your writing here. Do you have the slightest clue about fly fishing or conservations efforts of fishermen? I expect this reply to join a veritable flame barrage(especially at this, the cabin-fever time of year).                                 Tom Littleton

Response:

I am terribly concerned about the contributing effects of fishing, and in particular the effects of sport flyfishing on the imminent extinction of many of our world’s greatest natural treasures.  All you have to do is check out websites like the one linked below and you can see the devastating effect flyfishing is having on overall fish population statistics.  This is true for fish than aren’t even being caught for legitimate reasons (i.e., food), like the sharks! http://www.livingplanet.org/seachange/fisheries/ I realize that flyfishing is tremendously popular, and in fact its popularity is growing in leaps and bounds.  The advent of new and exciting technologies, like computer-designed flies and hooks, have made it possible for the novice to catch fish like the pros of old. Why must this be the case?  Why must we sacrifice the pleasant and entirely natural life-cycle of an innocent fish for our own pleasure, not to mention the fact that we take food off a hungry child’s plate? Please, think about what I am saying.  This is a terribly important issue.  I am happy to discuss this admittedly emotional topic with anyone here, either on these newsgroups or through email.  Perhaps we can all learn something. Thank you for your time, James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist

Response:

I am terribly concerned about the contributing effects of fishing, and in particular the effects of sport flyfishing on the imminent extinction of many of our world’s greatest natural treasures.  All you have to do is check out websites like the one linked below and you can see the devastating effect flyfishing is having on overall fish population statistics.  This is true for fish than aren’t even being caught for legitimate reasons (i.e., food), like the sharks!

Bingo. http://www.livingplanet.org/seachange/fisheries/ I realize that flyfishing is tremendously popular, and in fact its popularity is growing in leaps and bounds.

Well….once people realize that what you say is true then flyfishing shall return to the subsistence intentions of its roots and our heritage.  This yuppie trend is just noise Jim. The advent of new and exciting technologies, like computer-designed flies and hooks, have made it possible for the novice to catch fish like the pros of old.

Yup. Why must this be the case?  Why must we sacrifice the pleasant and entirely natural life-cycle of an innocent fish for our own pleasure, not to mention the fact that we take food off a hungry child’s plate?

Damned good questions. Please, think about what I am saying.  This is a terribly important issue.  I am happy to discuss this admittedly emotional topic with anyone here, either on these newsgroups or through email.  Perhaps we can all learn something.

You have many friends here. Thank you for your time,

And for yours. James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist

– TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

Please, think about what I am saying.  This is a terribly important issue.  I am happy to discuss this admittedly emotional topic with anyone here, either on these newsgroups or through email.  Perhaps we can all learn something.

If you want to discuss this with an OPEN mind in a gentlemanly open and exchange of ideas then email me for this group thread will probably desintigrate into another C&R tirade real quick. If you’re trolling, I humbly interject that you are completely ignoring the relevant facts of evolution, the food chain, giving to much creedence to computer designs in fishing, and loosing sight of what some peoples idea of nature is all about. Wayne *biologist turned accountant but very concerned about nature, regardless* Wayne Knight Geneva IL                            

Response:

you know, just this am as i was reading gg’s post and enjoying my coffee, i thought what we need is a good ole c&k vs c&r debate to liven things up around here. looks like this just may fit the bill. ahhhh, the good ole days. have at it boys. –Wataugan "hopefully, my one and only reply to this thread" Walt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am terribly concerned about the contributing effects of fishing, and in particular the effects of sport flyfishing on the imminent extinction of many of our world’s greatest natural treasures.  All you have to do is check out websites like the one linked below and you can see the devastating effect flyfishing is having on overall fish population statistics.  This is true for fish than aren’t even being caught for legitimate reasons (i.e., food), like the sharks! http://www.livingplanet.org/seachange/fisheries/ I realize that flyfishing is tremendously popular, and in fact its popularity is growing in leaps and bounds.  The advent of new and exciting technologies, like computer-designed flies and hooks, have made it possible for the novice to catch fish like the pros of old. Why must this be the case?  Why must we sacrifice the pleasant and entirely natural life-cycle of an innocent fish for our own pleasure, not to mention the fact that we take food off a hungry child’s plate? Please, think about what I am saying.  This is a terribly important issue.  I am happy to discuss this admittedly emotional topic with anyone here, either on these newsgroups or through email.  Perhaps we can all learn something. Thank you for your time, James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist

–          The Blue Ridge Book Gallery      P.O. Box 5112  Banner Elk, NC 28604       http://www.mercury.net/~wgwinter to view our ongoing auctions at Ebay, click below… http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=blue…

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[snip timster type nanner] not to mention the fact that we take food off a hungry child’s plate?

I promise that, when I see a hungry child working a pool, I’ll move on to the next one. Unless, of course, it is catch and release in which case I’ll have to report him if he’s eating<g. You and timbo have a real nice day. — Charlie…

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[deleted] desintigrate into another C&R tirade real quick.

[deleted] You mis-spelled elevate. Your pal, — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

I am terribly concerned about the contributing effects of fishing, and in particular the effects of sport flyfishing on the imminent extinction of many of our world’s greatest natural treasures.  All you have to do is check out websites like the one linked below and you can see the devastating effect flyfishing is having on overall fish population statistics. http://www.livingplanet.org/seachange/fisheries/

Did you even read the webpage that you posted? or is this just a troll?  The page rightfully places the blame of overfishing on the supertrawlers and sights trouble spots mostly out in the open ocean. The advent of new and exciting technologies, like computer-designed flies and hooks, have made it possible for the novice to catch fish like the pros of old.

   #              ##   ###               #    #                 #          #####       #    #                 #   ###               #    #              ## Okay, that solves the mystery, you are trolling…… "…computer-designed flies…possible…to catch fish like the pros…" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Best laugh I’ve had all day, thanks,      - Ken — "Time is but the stream I go a-fishin in. I drink at it, but while I drink I see the sandy bottom and detect how shallow it is. It’s thin current slides away, but eternity remains."     – H.D. Thoreau

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You have many friends here.

Ha, ha.  LOL!  OK, I can tell that T-Bone isn’t interested in my discussion.  That’s fine, if I can change one mind, or even get someone to think about the problem, my post will not be in vain. James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist

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Are you naked right now ? OBROFF:  Nude flyfishing is extremely hazardous, please practice it with utmost caution. — TimW, Halfordian Golfer "A Cash Flow Runs Through It…" "Guilt replaced the creel…"

Response:

I am terribly concerned about the contributing effects of fishing, and in particular the effects of sport flyfishing on the imminent extinction of many of our world’s greatest natural treasures.  All you have to do is check out websites like the one linked below and you can see the devastating effect flyfishing is having on overall fish population statistics.  This is true for fish than aren’t even being caught for legitimate reasons (i.e., food), like the sharks! http://www.livingplanet.org/seachange/fisheries/

this website says nothing of flyfishing or even sportfishing for that matter.  maybe you should read it.  it’s about the worldwide fishing fleets (commercial you idiot) are devestating fish populations worldwide especially species such as tuna.  i’d think if you were going to post URL’s they ought to support your wacko beliefs.  please show where flyfishing has caused "the devestating effect… on overall fish population statistics."  c’mon, i dare you, you PETA twit.  you are a liar, plain and simple. I realize that flyfishing is tremendously popular, and in fact its popularity is growing in leaps and bounds.  The advent of new and exciting technologies, like computer-designed flies and hooks, have made it possible for the novice to catch fish like the pros of old.

have you tried to flyfish?  and how do computer generated hooks make newcomers fish as well as seasoned flyfishing veterans?  you again don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Why must this be the case?  Why must we sacrifice the pleasant and entirely natural life-cycle of an innocent fish for our own pleasure, not to mention the fact that we take food off a hungry child’s plate?

how does flyfishing take food off a hungry child’s plate?  maybe somebodies casting flies in third world countries snagging food off poor childen’s plates.  get over it.  if we eat a fish we catch, we are in fact leaving more food for your poor starving children campaign.  btw, you are probably against medical research using animals, so how dare you try to use children as a weapon against us.  your policies result in many dead children dying because researchers cannot cure diseases.  fuck you. Please, think about what I am saying.  This is a terribly important issue.  I am happy to discuss this admittedly emotional topic with anyone here, either on these newsgroups or through email.  Perhaps we can all learn something.

maybe you can get a friggin’ brain, you twit.  stop basing natural resource management on emotion, and use facts.  sportfishermen and hunters provide much more money to save and restore animals, fish, and ecosystems than you or your animal rights wacko buddies. Thank you for your time, James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist

amateur is right.  you’re an idiot plain and simple.  you are misinformed on fishery issues.  try doing some reading, and not just PETAphile propoganda. good day you twit, chris

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I looked at your map on that site, and it would seem to me that the areas that are shaded look lie areas of commercial fishing? I understand your worries, for I have them too. Keep hope in that the yuppie fad with fly fishing will die down and the true naturalists will prevail. I have many generations in my family that were avid field sportsmen, including hunters, but while I don’t condone the killing of animals for sport you must realize that people must be fed, and systems such as aqua culture will not provide enough product to feed the masses, what we need is control of the population and not the animals. Maybe we should start thinking about limiting people’s rights to breed? Andrew

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You have many friends here. Ha, ha.  LOL!  OK, I can tell that T-Bone isn’t interested in my discussion.  That’s fine, if I can change one mind, or even get someone to think about the problem, my post will not be in vain. James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist

except timbo’s allready in your camp, until he realizes that you wackos actually want to ban all fishing, all hunting, and all use of animals in any regard… regardless of whether a fishing releases or keeps his catch or does a little bit of both (that selective harvest thing). james allen andrews (professional idiot, amateur naturalist) wants all fishing to be banned… to hell with all that sportfishermen and the groups they join (TU, FFF, WA Trout, CA Trout, etc.) do to protect and restore fish populations worldwide. he is an enemy to restoring fish populations in the united states and the rest of the world.  he thinks that if we don’t kill a few fish everything will be allright. hey james, the real problems facing our fisheries are habitat destruction and commercial overharvest.  switch to facing those issues and your professional idiot title may disappear, and you might just make some sense. so long wacko, go eat some tofu, chris

Response:

If you want to discuss this with an OPEN mind in a gentlemanly open and exchange of ideas then email me for this group thread will probably desintigrate into another C&R tirade real quick.

Well, OK, but it seems civil so far.  Has this been a problem around here before?  And if you don’t mind, what’s C&R? If you’re trolling,

An ironic use of terms in this newsgroup!  No, I’m not trolling. I humbly interject that you are completely ignoring the relevant facts of evolution, the food chain, giving to much creedence to computer designs in fishing, and loosing sight of what some peoples idea of nature is all about.

I understand some people’s idea of nature is different than mine. I’ve stated mine (at least I hope I have), and am willing to listen to anyone who disputes the effects of flyfishing on the world’s fish population. Wayne *biologist turned accountant but very concerned about nature, regardless*

James Allen Andrews Amateur Naturalist (and still an engineer!)

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Jim, I looked at the site you indicated. Where does it say anything about flyfishing? Not much thought in your weenieassed post.  Just because you mean well doesn’t mean you know anything. Show me any study, published anywhere, in any language, by anyone, that says flyfishing is responsible for the imminent extinction of any fish species and I will read it and discuss it with you. Until you can come up with even one lameassed bit of evidence, you are masterbating in public. Im sorry but as you mature you will run into many mean people like me who have limited patience with fools. Unless you are willing to put some learning effort into your interests, you may want to look for a more suitable avocation than "naturtalist" as an outlet for your need to share your ideas with others. Perhaps some areas where opinions are perfered over facts. A few suggestions are religion, politics, corrections, educational policy, folk dancing, Now the other part. If you post more of this crap in a fishing site I care about I will kill every third fish I catch in your name. I catch many fish in a year. You personally will be responsible for their deaths because you pestered me. Get it? Dave Snedeker I am terribly concerned about the contributing effects of fishing, and in particular the effects of sport flyfishing on the imminent extinction of many of our world’s greatest natural treasures.

SNIPPED REST OF DRIVEL

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Question:

Don’t need a cane rod George, I have enough trouble with a graphite one, but if I may put my 2 cents in, "By George Fly Rods" has a nice ring to it. And just for curiosity sakes, what color thread for the guides?

Response:

What is your final choice?  And do you want an extra tip? I’ll give you a tip, George. Get out of this business before it’s too late.

; ) —

Question:

Bruce: Hey, you don’t have to rub our USA noses in it, do you?  Seriously, thanks for an informative post.  Of course, do you realize you just ruined your fishing? Now your area will become a dreaded "destination fishery", bringing yuppie Yankees crawling all over your fishing waters.  Articles will appear in fishing magazines, rods will be named after your favorite rivers, and if you’re really lucky there will be a Jeep model named in your honor.  :) Mark Faulkner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hmmmm, humble Aussie here, and after reading numerous articles from the newsgroups I’ve gotta say you have to get down into the Southern Hemisphere. Where I live in Horsham in Western Victoria, down south in case you didn’t know, I have world class lake fishing virtually at my doorstep. Twenty minutes in one direction takes me to Lake Toolondo, home of sensational brown trout, and 30 minutes in the other direction takes me to Lake Fyans where I landed a lovely little rainbow on Sunday night. Lovely start to the working week, I must say. Seriously, without being flippant, I had no idea how lucky I was as far as my fly fishing goes until I started to read articles from the newsgroup. I don’t have to plan fishing trips. Mates simply call during the day, ask what I’m doing later and whether I’d like to go fishing. We pack our gear into the car and we’re there in no more than half an hour. And that’s to get to the best waters. There are plenty as close as 10 minutes away which produce browns to 5lb on a good day. If anyone’s considering an Aussie holiday, you could do worse than to visit from September through to March. Hope you like it hot, though. Regards, Bruce L.

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Mark Faulkner you’re really lucky there will be a Jeep model named in your honor.  :) The Subaru already has the "Outback".   Dave LaCourse

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Mark Faulkner you’re really lucky there will be a Jeep model named in your honor.  :) The Subaru already has the "Outback". Dave LaCourse

Jeez, how could I forget that.  Mark Faulkner

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Bruce: Hey, you don’t have to rub our USA noses in it, do you?  Seriously, thanks for an informative post.  Of course, do you realize you just ruined your fishing? Now your area will become a dreaded "destination fishery", bringing yuppie Yankees crawling all over your fishing waters.  Articles will appear in fishing magazines, rods will be named after your favorite rivers, and if you’re really lucky there will be a Jeep model named in your honor.  :) Mark Faulkner

Don’t worry about it Mark, Rex Hunt will probably be there, and he will keep the tourists away! Regards, — Bill

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Question:

Ps is everyone here from America.

rec.outdorrs.fishing.fly gets, like nearly all international newsgroups, mostly postings from Americans. There are people from other countries reading this group and writing articles but they are a minority. You might consider subscribing to the European Flyfishers mailing list. If you are interested, just mail me, I’ll give you information, about how to subscribe. regard Wolfgang  

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[snip] Ps is everyone here from America. Clea.

No, there are also quite a few Canadians, but I know it’s hard to tell the difference as a lot of us wear Dallas Cowboys or Miami Dolphins jackets, plus we own half of Florida, and we can all speak fluent American. Peter

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Peter Charles wrote [snip] Ps is everyone here from America. No, there are also quite a few Canadians, but I know it’s hard to tell the difference as a lot of us wear Dallas Cowboys or Miami Dolphins jackets, plus we own half of Florida, and we can all speak fluent American.

Rumor has it that to do so, you have to practice for years to keep from automatically ending every sentence with "eh".  8-) Is this true?–                                                       -dnc-

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Peter Charles wrote [snip] Ps is everyone here from America. No, there are also quite a few Canadians, but I know it’s hard to tell the difference as a lot of us wear Dallas Cowboys or Miami Dolphins jackets, plus we own half of Florida, and we can all speak fluent American. Rumor has it that to do so, you have to practice for years to keep from automatically ending every sentence with "eh".  8-) Is this true?–                                                      -dnc-

Very true.  Most of us can handle ‘eh’ in moderation.  But for the poor addicted abusers, well they can always turn to EhEh for help. Peter

Response:

Just for interest, I

Question:

Need advice on where to look for  an inexpensive (<$100) 4 peice pack rod (preferably 9′ 6 wt)–used or new.  If anyone knows of a good

Look for glass rods with the Abu or Fenwick name — probably no longer sold new, but the old ones must be somewhere…. — |  Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs,  | |        Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734         |

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Need advice on where to look for  an inexpensive (<$100) 4 peice pack rod (preferably 9′ 6 wt)–used or new.  If anyone knows of a good starting point would appreciate a tip!

Response:

Need advice on where to look for  an inexpensive (<$100) 4 peice pack rod (preferably 9′ 6 wt)–used or new.  If anyone knows of a good starting point would appreciate a tip!

For the same money, you might be able to get a better quality rod by going to a two piece rod.  Put it in a schedule 40 PVC tube and use it for a walking stick.  It helps me a lot crossing streams and going up/ down steep inclines.  The thin wall PVC won’t hold up as well if you really put your weight on it (like when you need it most).   Rob

Response:

: For the same money, you might be able to get a better quality rod by : going to a two piece rod.  Put it in a schedule 40 PVC tube and use it : for a walking stick.  It helps me a lot crossing streams and going up/ : down steep inclines.  The thin wall PVC won’t hold up as well if you : really put your weight on it (like when you need it most).   Rob, I also use two-piece rods hiking and backpacking.  I carry them in a sturdy PVC tube and use the tube as a walking stick.  If I ever fell right on top of it. . . well I think I would rather have the rod break than me (but I am not too sure). Schedule 40 PVC?  Hmmm.  I guess I will know what to ask for next time I acquire a PVC rod tube.  Thanks for the terminology. Cheers, Burnaby, BC

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Check and see if you can find a st. Croix dealer in canada. I bought two 4 pc.    pack

Response:

Hi, If you are into building your own rod the River’s Edge in Bozeman, MT has Sage second blank (4 peice pack rods) for about $130.00.  If you think you might be interested you can call them at 406-586-5373. Good Luck Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (catalog avail)

Response:

Al, Thanks for the post.  I saw your message of Jan 4 regarding the River’s Edge and the sage seconds.  We live in Chicago and have a tough time finding a source for seconds, especially travel rods at this price! Bryan and company at rivers edge were quite helpful.  I just purchased two of the blanks and there in the mail now.

Response:

St. Croix is available in Canada at a decent price.  Diawa makes a 4 – 5 wt. that fishs very well.  Pack rods at low prices can be hard to find.  Good luck. Peter – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Check and see if you can find a st. Croix dealer in canada. I bought two 4 pc.    pack

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Check the Cabela’s 1996 Spring catalog.  They’re listing a 4pc. pack rod blank (9′/6wt I think) for less than $50.  They list it as an import, but who knows.

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I looking for an moderately priced pack rod, and have found a Cabela’s Fish Eagle 8′ 4wt. for #116.  Anybody out there have any opinions about the rod?

Response:

I really like the St. Croix Imperial, 8′ for 4/5 in a 4 piece … rod holder included for around $125. Also it has a lifetime guarantee … I like the intermediate action so much that I am fishing it almost as my #1 rod. bob vorel

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Question:

I have figured out how to use fiberoptics to backlight a chest pack.  It has no direct light to scare trout, used red light, and only needs a couple of AAA batteries.

Well done ! Do you all think that this is marketable?  I could retrofit most chest packs for under $35, which is chump change to fly fishing (or so Orvis seems to think)….

Of course it’s marketable.  I won’t buy one though.  What fun would night fishing be if you had a reliable light ? TimW

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have figured out how to use fiberoptics to backlight a chest pack.  It has no direct light to scare trout, used red light, and only needs a couple of AAA batteries. Do you all think that this is marketable?  I could retrofit most chest packs for under $35, which is chump change to fly fishing (or so Orvis seems to think)…. No, it’s too cheap and inconspicuous.  What’s the fun of buying flyfishing stuff if every yahoo can afford it and no one can see it?  I’d rather ostentatiously pull the Honda generator out of my Orvis Jeep Cherokee, crank her up so that all can hear me and run the power out to me while I’m in the stream.  That way I can use a halogen lamp to read the faxes coming in from my broker in Japan over my handheld cellular fax machine. Plus, without a direct light, who’ll be able to see me?  And even if they could, won’t a red light throw off my color coordinated vest and hat?  Sounds like a bad idea to me. Musconet

Great stuff, I love off-season :-

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Question:

I just saw this TERRIBLE bumper sticker on the back of a pickup:         It’s Not How Deep You Fish         It’s How You Wiggle Your Worm Ain’t that sad? And theres another just like it at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/moffet/bsotd.htm

Response:

I just saw this TERRIBLE bumper sticker on the back of a pickup:         It’s Not How Deep You Fish         It’s How You Wiggle Your Worm Ain’t that sad? And theres another just like it at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/moffet/bsotd.htm

Somehow I don’t think that’s REALLY related to fishing… Saw a GREAT bumper sticker today myself… wanna send one to all the PETApeople: "I LOVE ANIMALS!      They’re delicious!" — Joe Ellis         o/~ The Synthetic Filker o/~ |    TesserAct Studios  ()X  Darwin (;        Now on the Web at      |   Fairfield, OH 45018  //~~~LL~~~~LL~  http://shell.idt.net/~ellis69 |  New Dimensions In Filk!

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I live with fear and danger every day. Sometimes I take her flyfishing. TimW

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I just saw this TERRIBLE bumper sticker on the back of a pickup:         It’s Not How Deep You Fish         It’s How You Wiggle Your Worm Ain’t that sad? And theres another just like it at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/moffet/bsotd.htm Somehow I don’t think that’s REALLY related to fishing… Saw a GREAT bumper sticker today myself… wanna send one to all the PETApeople: "I LOVE ANIMALS!      They’re delicious!" —

Saw one myself: I’m not a vegetarian because I love animals…I just HATE plants.

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If it’s tourist season, how come I can’t shoot one? Charley

Response:

My friend Larry, with whom I’ve been fishing since early high school (circa 1969) called me the other day…. Larry: "Did you hear the Michigan Militia declared a no-fly zone North of Saginaw?" Me: "Oh…?" Larry: "Yeah, it’s worm only." Well, maybe you had to be there. –mike

Response:

Question:

Question: while in Victoria, BC, I purchased an antique Wheatly box with about 50 wet flys (mostly Peter Ross and Montreal). Is anyone on the west coast (esp California) still using wet flys with any results or have they been wiped out by nymphs?

Response:

Question: while in Victoria, BC, I purchased an antique Wheatly box with about 50 wet flys (mostly Peter Ross and Montreal). Is anyone on the west coast (esp California) still using wet flys with any results or have they been wiped out by nymphs?

I am still using wet flies (I live in Montana).  My favorite flies are Peter Ross, Grizzly King, Silver March Brown, Soft Hackles etc.  I ususally use them when I can’t see dry flies in late evening and when fish are taking something at subsurface (I use either emerger flies or wet flies in this case).  Wet flies work very well.  Therefore, I always carry dry, nimph, and wet fly boxes in my vest. NK

Response:

Is anyone on the west coast (esp California) still using wet flys with any results or have they been wiped out by nymphs?

I tie and fish traditional winged wets and soft hackles all the time, and they still work on the Oregon coast streams.  –Roger

Response:

 Is anyone on the west coast (esp California) still using wet flys with any results or have they been wiped out by nymphs?

Hi Doug, Fish the traditional wet fly is still one of my favorite fishing methods. The only real change I’ve made over the years is my wet flies are much smaller than they used to be.  In years past my average wet fly was a #8 or #10.  Today they are mostly #14 or #16.  I think they are more deadly today than years past especially when fished over "hard pressed" fish.   These fish have seen everything ten times a day and a wet fly is something different. Tight Lines Al Beatty BT’s Fly Fishing Products Bozeman, MT (96 catalog)

Response:

Do you fish a wet fly like a nymph? i.e. split shot 6-8" above the fly? I am new to this, have gotten pretty good at tying my own flys, and like to tie many of the wet fly patterns, but honestly don’t know how to fish them. Someone let me know please? DLowe

Response:

Dear DLowe,     The traditional way of fishing wets was to cast across and downstream and let the line and leader swing around in a large, slow arc, take a step downstream, cast again, etc covering as much water as possible.  Flies were unweighted and usually fished two or three at a time.  Twitching the flies as they swung around and/or mending to slow the swing were common additions to the technique.  This method has been declared extinct several times over the last hundred years, first by the dry fly purists of the turn of the century, more recently by nymph specialists.  It still works, it is a very relaxing and pleasant way to fish, and it is a good way for a novice to learn to read water.      I highly recommend the book Wet Flies by Dave Hughes.  –  Roger

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(KilchsGray) writes: Dear DLowe,    The traditional way of fishing wets was to cast across and downstream and let the line and leader swing around in a large, slow arc, take a step downstream, cast again, etc covering as much water as possible.  Flies were unweighted and usually fished two or three at a time.  Twitching the flies as they swung around and/or mending to slow the swing were common additions to the technique.  This method has been declared extinct several times over the last hundred years, first by the dry fly purists of the turn of the century, more recently by nymph specialists.  It still works, it is a very relaxing and pleasant way to fish, and it is a good way for a novice to learn to read water.     I highly recommend the book Wet Flies by Dave Hughes. —  Roger

Ditto on the Dave Hughes book. Dave just did a presentation to our club on wet flies. Don Burns

Response: