Question:

i-81, north of syracuse, turn right…  hmmm, sounds like another snipe hunt…  but, after participating in a few hundred of them, i’m still tryin to get the hang of it.  so, pencil me in. jeff (more simpler) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur? It couldn’t be more simple.   If’n you can get to I-81 anywhere between Tennessee & New York, you’ve got it licked.   If you’re starting out in the I-95 corridor, pick the east/west interstate of your choice.   Once you’re on I-81, stay on it until about 35 miles north of Syracure and turn right. At that point, you’re as good as there. Joe F.

Response:

you got a cah? …i got a truk.  …but, if a truk will do, where is altmar? jeff Find Lake Ontario on a map of NY. Can’t miss it. Look for the big blue thing in the upper left.

FYI.   I think that this year was one of the best I have had in many years, I spent a total of about 4-5 weeks on and off,  fishing there. I have been fishing the Salmon River for over 18 years.  The Salmon run started the first week in September, and my last trip finished up Sunday November 10th.   To my amazement the Kings were still running into the river, and I found that most were still in excellent shape. Finished up the last day with a catch of 3 browns, ranging between 7-10lbs., one Steelhead rather small and several Kings.  All were released.   Arty PS, only broke one fly rod this season. Art(Arty)Santella

Response:

Unbelievably, it’s time to start considering whether or not you’re interested in a repeat (and hopefully, an improvement) on the 2002 Salmon River mini-clave.   In 2003, we will not be staying at Malinda’s, only because she is already booked up for every weekend through October 19 (as is the Portly Angler and Whitaker’s). Rather than push the dates back and risk missing too much of the prime run, Craig & I have found another lodge that promises better accommodations than Malinda’s (I know, "How is that possible?" you ask.) and that actually has rooms available for the earlier weekend. So – if you are thinking you might want to book a room at clave central next year, October 16-19, 2003, email me & I’ll give you the location.   Or, if there’s enough tentative interest at this early date, I’ll just book a second (or third?) room as I did last year. Joe F.

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So – if you are thinking you might want to book a room at clave central next year, October 16-19, 2003, email me & I’ll give you the location.   Or, if there’s enough tentative interest at this early date, I’ll just book a second (or third?) room as I did last year.

FYI:   I’ve received enough "maybes" that I went ahead and booked a 4-person efficiency at the "Fish Inn Post" (www.fishinnpost.com) in Altmar, NY for the nights of 10/16/03 through 10/18/03.   I will put down the deposit & hold this room for potential miniclavers.   I have never been to this lodge & can’t attest to anything about it, but how bad could it be, eh? That ought to cover it until next summer, I’d expect.   We’ll talk then. Joe F. p.s.   If anyone would like a recommendation for a good guide, I’d recommend Pat Miura (http://members.aol.com/pmiura/index.html).   I know he’s booked for Saturday, 10/18, but it’s not too early if you want to grab a different day.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So – if you are thinking you might want to book a room at clave central next year, October 16-19, 2003, email me & I’ll give you the location.   Or, if there’s enough tentative interest at this early date, I’ll just book a second (or third?) room as I did last year. FYI:   I’ve received enough "maybes" that I went ahead and booked a 4-person efficiency at the "Fish Inn Post" (www.fishinnpost.com) in Altmar, NY for the nights of 10/16/03 through 10/18/03.   I will put down the deposit & hold this room for potential miniclavers.   I have never been to this lodge & can’t attest to anything about it, but how bad could it be, eh? That ought to cover it until next summer, I’d expect.   We’ll talk then. Joe F. p.s.   If anyone would like a recommendation for a good guide, I’d recommend Pat Miura (http://members.aol.com/pmiura/index.html).   I know he’s booked for Saturday, 10/18, but it’s not too early if you want to grab a different day.

I’ve stayed here a fw times and it’s a step up from Malinda’s. Paul

Response:

i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – FYI:   I’ve received enough "maybes" that I went ahead and booked a 4-person efficiency at the "Fish Inn Post" (www.fishinnpost.com) in Altmar, NY for the nights of 10/16/03 through 10/18/03.   I will put down the deposit & hold this room for potential miniclavers.   I have never been to this lodge & can’t attest to anything about it, but how bad could it be, eh?

Response:

i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur?

cah

Response:

you got a cah? …i got a truk.  …but, if a truk will do, where is altmar? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur? cah

Response:

you got a cah? …i got a truk.  …but, if a truk will do, where is altmar? jeff

Find Lake Ontario on a map of NY. Can’t miss it. Look for the big blue thing in the upper left. Altmar is about 10 miles east of the lake and about 5 miles east of Pulaski. Paul

Response:

i’ve never fished naw yuk… so, plug me in as a definite maybe… but 2 days might not be ’nuff.  …um, how do you get to allmur?

It couldn’t be more simple.   If’n you can get to I-81 anywhere between Tennessee & New York, you’ve got it licked.   If you’re starting out in the I-95 corridor, pick the east/west interstate of your choice.   Once you’re on I-81, stay on it until about 35 miles north of Syracure and turn right. At that point, you’re as good as there. Joe F.

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Question:

In some sense the problem of new dams is mostly past.  I think there is no "good" place left in the US to build a really large dam (with the possible exception of the Grand Canyon).  The last big dam built (Teton Dam) collapsed 25 years ago.  It was the almost inevitable result of continuing to build after the last technically "good" location was used. I think building of medium sized dams pretty much stopped soon thereafter.  It is harder to tell because smaller dams are less newsworthy.  Generally, it is no longer economically justified to build most dams.  Partially this is because of the elimination of cheap real estate.  Just as with large dams, the "good" locations were already used.  A significant increase in environmental concerns raises the associated costs.  There is also a realization that many older dams are technically weak, so new dams now require a much more conservative (that is expensive) design.  The result is that new dams are not being built and a few old dams are even being removed for economic reasons. I think the conclusion is that new dams are pretty much a non-issue.  Of course there are still a lot of old dams around with no viable justification for their existence.      Larry

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What do you all think? I think there would be little runnable water in the east without dam releases! – Mothra

As you know, the Cheat has no dams in its watershed yet still offers a very long season. Its tributaries are free flowing and a hoot to paddle when the Cheat Canyon gets too high. Without dams in the East paddling would be…different. More seasonal. Less crowded. Still fun. But I’ll admit, I’d hate to do ALL my Upper Yough paddling in February Jordan

Response:

That’s the best response I’ve heard yet. At least the one I liked best.  I wish more people were able to look at things as objectively. There is nothing wrong with being against something as long as you have good reason to feel the way you do. And it’s always better to temper your position with an understanding of the other side of an issue.

You did not originally ask for a balanced judgement on whether dams are beneficial or detrimental to the world and to society at large: You asked why boaters don’t like them. — JML

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Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

Have a look at what has been done in Austria or the French Alps… Many rivers have been dammed, often burying great stretches of white water, creating environmental nightmares in the places that were swamped (think Brazil). The parts that are left unburied are either degraded to concrete channels in which the water is urged downstream as quickly as possible, to prevent flooding problems, or have become completey dry, as the water is led around the steepest (and therefore often the best) stretches of original riverbed. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity.

Actually, you just gave off yet another problem: by using that water for agricultural use, drinking water or letting it evaporate, you lose a lot of what before the damming went down to fill the riverbed downstream. So even more of the river gets hit! Wilko PS: Mind you, I agree that there are some benefits as well, like "clean" electricity, controlling floods that threaten people and such… For Austria for example it’s one of the few dependable export products they have (AFAIK They have no large ore or mineral deposits). PPS: No Scott, don’t even try, I won’t waste the energy to reply to you. — Wilko van den Bergh                       quibus(at)europe(dot)com     Eindhoven           The Netherlands            Europe                       "Look Mum: No sense!"  

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In other cases, dams are objectionable because they have flooded incredibly beautiful valleys.  Hetch Hetchy and Glen Canyon are prime examples.  I seriously doubt that these would be built today.

And don’t forget the New Melones Dam that drowned out a fantastic class III run of the Stanislaus River.  I never got to see it because I started paddling the first year it was no longer (and had moved the the east coast, the year the drought brought it back).  That stretch was a big loss to river runners.  Sure, the South Fork of the American is nice, but it’s great to have some choices. Lori

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2.   OK,  now let’s look at dams from purely a whitewater paddling perspective.   Yes,  some dams actually improve our whitewater resources. The Grand Canyon is the obvious biggie.

I would disagree with this statement.  I think the Grand Canyon was a better place to paddle before the Glen Canyon Dam.  First of all, the flows were consistent, rather than these funky daily fluxuations that go on now.  Also, the water was much warmer.  It was also possible to hit it at a high flow, which can happen now, but doesn’t happen every year like it used to.  I think the yearly patterns were fairly predictable, and I’m sure there was plenty of water most years for a full season.  There were also more sand bars.  And the list goes on….. I’m sorry, but I can’t agree that there is any good contributed to river running due to the Glen Canyon Dam.  The only good that dam does is for the Casinos in Las Vegas. Lori

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   p.s. I can’t stand it when people call a dam controlled body of water a lake.  It’s a flowage or in some cases backwater.  (It’s usually the people who overpaid for property around it that will call it a lake)

Response:

That’s the best response I’ve heard yet. At least the one I liked best.  I wish more people were able to look at things as objectively. There is nothing wrong with being against something as long as you have good reason to feel the way you do. And it’s always better to temper your position with an understanding of the other side of an issue. It makes me feel better about this board to know that some of the people who frequent it  can logically address a topic and include insight with their opinions.  The Lake Powell thread on a similar subject had me doubting. -k_thomas

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    I wouldn’t consider myself as an eco-nazi but benefits be "damned", should we screw with Mother Nature as much as we really do?       Living in the Great Lakes region I have seen the dramatic effects of water usage.  Lake Superior alone last year was down 13-20ft. (according to the media.. I never measured it)        I believe our world is dramatically changing every day, and not to our benefit.  Granted I’m only 30 years old, but I can remember snowfalls that where a far greater amount than we receive now.  There are probably a gad-zillion reasons why our planet seems to be changing so rapidly, and I just don’t see the benefits of raping a ecosystem that has had so much damage in the last 130 years.       As a more mature friend of mine has often stated to me…"think globally..and act locally" Craig       …and no I’m not about to stop driving my truck to the river.

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Hetch Hetchy in California is perhaps the most egregious example.  A valley equivalent to Yosemite Valley is under water and closed to most public uses. The water from it goes to farmers and could easily be stored in Don Pedro Reservoir which is below it.

I dispute you here… Glen Canyon is by far the most egregious example with Boulder Damn not far behind. Having spent several long seasons climbing in Yosemite and imagining what was under Hetch Hetchy, I can agree that it too is an egregious wrong, but nowhere nearly so large or so environmentally destructive in it’s extent as Glen Canyon Damn and Lake Foul. Warren

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I know that this isn’t the forum for a discussion of alternative energy sources but I really think that we need to take a serious look again at nuclear.  It, besides hydropower, is the only conceivable short-term source of abundant power.  If we, like much of the rest of the world, had a significant portion of our energy that comes from nukes, we wouldn’t need so many dams. I laugh whenever I hear the "Solar, Wind, Geothermal…." argument.  None of those are or will ever be a source of the abundant power that our country thinks it needs.  I don’t think that it is realistic to expect that Americans will be willing to drastically change the way we use energy. So what are the choices? 1) Fossil fuels – Bad, bad, dissappearing. 2) Hydropower – (see this discussion for reasons not to like them). 3) Alternative Energy (Diffuse – Not readily available) 4) Nuclear Energy Many of our fears about them are based on experiences from the 60’s and 70’s – The rest of the world has gone full speed ahead and the industry has forty years of experience behind them.  We can make them clean and safe. Many countries are sucessfully using our technology to dispose of the waste. Randy Hodges BTW – An interesting book about the depression era dam building is "Bucking the Sun" by Ivan Doig.  I found it interesting because my grandfather helped build Shasta Dam in California. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t think my post really clasifies as a troll.  I was obviouslly looking for responses, but the intent was provoke thought and dialogue not argument and emotion. It just seems to me that paddlers have a knee jerk reaction to dams that defies logic. Someone in this thread mentioned the destruction of salmon species and of particularly unique environments as an argument against dams.  In the cases where those are valid concerns I completely see the agrument against the dam.  Those cases seem to be more an exception than a rule in my limited experience.  Maybe thats because I live in the east. But, I honestly believe that ,in general, dams are better for the environment that the main alternatives available today(coal, natural gas, and nuclear).  So to me the generic bad for the environment arguments holds no water(pun intended).  Solar, wind and tidal power may provide a cleaner, more environmentally friendly option in the future but are not economically viable yet today. my $.02 -k_thomas

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      That’s a thoughtful question, D. There are MANY reasons why kayakers generally oppose dams, and no answer under 100 pages will be complete.   So I’ll try to give a simple perspective on two basic reasons why kayakers hate dams:     1.    I would say the simplest reason is purely ecological.  Dams tend to destroy habitat, first by the massive construction and earth-moving project, and then forever by changing river flow that has existed for millions of years, shaping the surrounding ecosystem.     2.   OK,  now let’s look at dams from purely a whitewater paddling perspective.   Yes,  some dams actually improve our whitewater resources. The Grand Canyon is the obvious biggie.  Here in the West,  the NF Payette in Idaho and the Tuolumne and Lower Kern in Calif. are other examples of dams stretching out the season.  A lot of boaters back east benefit from dam releases creating long seasons.       But there are many dams that reduce or outright  KILL a good whitewater run.   Nothing kills a river quicker than taking the water out of the river and putting it into a pipe. One of the greatest whitewater rivers in the world is the Kern River in Southern California. For about 20 million people to the south,  this is the ONLY major whitewater river within reasonable weekend driving distance.      The aforementioned Lower Kern runs longer because of the dam at Isabella Lake,   But this dam also raises water temperature,  and something is very wrong with the fish screening system at the dam’s outlet.  This combined with the lake use,  results in horrible water quality on the lower. Lots of ww paddlers complain about sinus problems after rolling in this water.  It takes a lot of the fun out of this run.      The best convenient day-run whitewater on the Kern that is not restricted by special-use permits (as is the classic Forks Run)  is the North Fork, or Upper Kern,  which holds almost 20 miles of runnable ww above Kernville.  Class II, III, IV and V runs are available on this stretch,  plus many playspots, and the whole stretch can be run in a day.          Anyway,  this absolute gem of a run is uniquely blessed with a long, long season,  thanks to the fact that it drains the highest peak in the lower 48, Mt. Whitney.  So on a good snowpack year,  you can run this whitewater,  on natural flow,  from March to October.        Well,  at least according to Mother Nature you can.   That’s where the evil hydropower dam comes in. The KR-3 hydro-dam at Fairview impounds and pipes the flow for about 13 miles of the NF Kern,  reducing  a world-class 17-mile river run,  deemed "Wild and Scenic" by Congress,   into two miles at the top, and two miles at the bottom,  with the middle 13 miles fairly dry for much of the season.               The pipe holds about 600 cfs.  Now,  on a good year, when the river is raging at 4,000 in spring,  it  doesn’t matter much  that the flow in the bypass reach,  or impacted stretch,  is reduced to 3,400.  But that’s the exception.   For most of the season,  the flow is usually around 1,000 cfs, which is a very fun flow for that river.  But reduce that to 400,  and the river is unrunnable for most kayakers.  Almost anything below 1,000 is pretty much  unrunnable for rafters.  So a world-class river, the closest such resource to the second-largest urban population in the country,  is unrunnable when nature is providing a lovely 1,600 cfs.   On dry or even moderate years, the flow might not get higher than this all year.         All of this for an outdated,  inefficient hydropower plant that has seen better days.      This is just one example of how one dam can dramatically impact a river,   and impact the kayakers and rafters who call this river home.  There are many other examples.    We’ve already dammed too many rivers.  We don’t have enough rivers left.   An earlier poster mentioned solar.   Concur.    Until I see a lot more solar panels and modern windmills,  I don’t want to hear about more hydropower dams.  And more important than all of this, we citizens and public agencies need to work much, much more on CONSERVING electricity.  We’re too spoiled with cheap energy.  Maybe the current price crisis out west will have a positive long-term impact.  Turning lights off,  not running our computers 24 hours a day, using efficient appliances, and recycling everything we can (saves mucho electricity from the manufacturing process) is a much better idea than damming more rivers.     OK, that’s the short answer. Respect our rivers.      Steve Waterstrat Steve Waterstrat

Response:

Dams suck because they drown rapids, cause untold ecological damage to the riparian environment downstream and are just one more example of humans thinking they know best.  There are almost always better ways to accomplish the same need. Warren – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

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I don’t think my post really clasifies as a troll.  I was obviouslly looking for responses, but the intent was provoke thought and dialogue not argument and emotion. It just seems to me that paddlers have a knee jerk reaction to dams that defies logic. Someone in this thread mentioned the destruction of salmon species and of particularly unique environments as an argument against dams.  In the cases where those are valid concerns I completely see the agrument against the dam.  Those cases seem to be more an exception than a rule in my limited experience.  Maybe thats because I live in the east. But, I honestly believe that ,in general, dams are better for the environment that the main alternatives available today(coal, natural gas, and nuclear).  So to me the generic bad for the environment arguments holds no water(pun intended).  Solar, wind and tidal power may provide a cleaner, more environmentally friendly option in the future but are not economically viable yet today. my $.02 -k_thomas

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What do you all think?

I think there would be little runnable water in the east without dam releases! – Mothra

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Whoa!" when someone speaks of damming a river is that the history of human intervention with the environment

yeah, but around here you can still find traces of Indian fish "dams" on some rivers – places where rocks have been strategically placed to funnel the fishies into a chute.  i think we’ve been messing with mother nature for a long, long time. what’s scary to me is how little "wilderness" or natural places are left.  even in wild, wunderful west virginia there’s more bulldozers every year.   the rainforest too is becoming more and more civilized.   i’m no super environmentalist but i guess the earth is waning – dying if you will.  i love looking out my window at my stand of trees, but there’s a house being built next door and the lot next to me has been sold to a developer. . . . – Mothra

Response:

Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I can’t speak for all paddlers.  In my case, the reason why my first thought is "Whoa!" when someone speaks of damming a river is that the history of human intervention with the environment is full of unintended consequences.  When we dam a river, we change things, in a big way.  We can’t always anticipate exactly what will result. —

As always, there are two valid sides to any argument. On the pro-dam side we have: -An exceptionally clean source of electricity (an important concern in these days of "global warming" allegedly caused in part by CO2 produced from coal and natural gas fired power plants). -Flood control, saving lots of money in property damage and possibly some lives every spring. -Recreational benefits from the created lakes (e.g. sailing, power boating) -Irrigation On the anti-dam side we have: -Aesthetics (a flowing river is much nicer to look at than a wall of concrete) -Environmental concerns  (e.g. the effects of flooding habitats, blocking migration routes, etc.  A result of the law of unintended consequences was discovered when they  flooded huge areas of northern Quebec–naturally occurring mercury in the soil and trees ended up in the water, making the fish from the new reservoir toxic…) -Recreational benefits (e.g. kayaking, rafting, fly fishing) -Concerns regarding decommissioning -Concerns regarding effects of silt build up -Danger of poorly maintained, or aging dams.  Just ask people who lived along thousands of kilometers of the Peace River in northern BC and Alberta a few years ago when a sinkhole was discovered in the Bennett dam.  Luckily the sinkhole turned out to be minor and not an indication of imminent failure of the dam, but there was a real scare for a while. The spillway of the dam, opened all the way up could not drain the reservoir sufficiently to prevent a massive wave if the dam collapsed. Of course, every individual person will put different weights on these pro- and con- factors, leading to a different determination of whether or not dams are good or bad. -Paul

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Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

I can’t speak for all paddlers.  In my case, the reason why my first thought is "Whoa!" when someone speaks of damming a river is that the history of human intervention with the environment is full of unintended consequences.  When we dam a river, we change things, in a big way.  We can’t always anticipate exactly what will result.   — ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::         "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart                 for the joys of the multitude"

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Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

It’s no fun to paddle a rapid which is under water, nor is it any fun to paddle a rapid which is completely dry.  Old timers can tell you about rapids which used to be fun and runnable which are now either submerged behind a dam, or downstream of a dam which diverts the water to someplace else. I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.

Some paddlers are more interested in paddling than in the generation, distribution, and consumption of ever increasing amounts of electric power.  Whitewater paddle craft use no electricity, and I’ve known a few boaters who have gone months at a time without using it either (e.g., living from the back of a pickup truck.) Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.

First of all, the "locality" affected by some dams can be *HUGE*.  The Three Gorges dam in China will permanently innundate 150,000 acres and force the relocation of 1.4 million people.  Besides the land that’s flooded, who knows how much additional impact will be caused by the displaced people, by the construction project, by the turning of almost four hundred miles of flowing river into a stagnant lake and, by the changes in the way the river banks will be used down stream (the main reason they’re building it is for flood control.) Secondly (and sadly), some paddlers are not interested in preserving ecosystems other than the ones that they happen to paddle through. [Dams] provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity.

Now  *THAT*  *IS*  *ARROGANT*!  Dams do not *MAKE* water.  Do you think the Gauley would dry up if someone took the Summersville Dam away?  The Gauley would still run, but it would run on God’s schedule instead of the Army Corps of Engineers’s schedule.  You might just as well tell us to praise the Federal Government for givings us money for schools and highways and whatever when all they are really doing is grudgingly returning a few of the dollars that they took from our pockets in the first place. — Foo! FWIW:  The Three Gorges dam will provide between 15,000 and 20,000        megawatts of electric power — about ten times the output of a        typical coal-fired power station.

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Why are paddlers most often against damming rivers?

I live in Northern California and we are faced with the possible loss of several species of Salmon and Steelhead.  Much (but certainly not all) of that is due to the deleterious effects of dams.  Dams stop or hinder migration, physically harm fish who are washed through generating facilities, and alter the water temperature and oxygen levels. In other cases, dams are objectionable because they have flooded incredibly beautiful valleys.  Hetch Hetchy and Glen Canyon are prime examples.  I seriously doubt that these would be built today. I don’t think that anyone but the most rabid of us are against all dams. Some are certainly necessary and appropriate.  There was a period in our history where nature was a thing to be conquered and where dams were built for dubious reasons such as "We can." or "Lets put people to work." or perhaps even "My supporters want it."  We need to careful consider removing these inappropriate dams. Hetch Hetchy in California is perhaps the most egregious example.  A valley equivalent to Yosemite Valley is under water and closed to most public uses. The water from it goes to farmers and could easily be stored in Don Pedro Reservoir which is below it. Randy Hodges

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Rather than give an inadequate response (my first inclination was to say merely that there’s miles of runnable water under them thar resevoirs! which is true by the way) I would direct you to <americanrivers.org I think that aside from the recreational and commercial opportunities that dams obfuscate, we as paddlers have become by proxy guardians of the continuuity of running water by way of our identification with it and our love of it. There are lots of ecological, communal and scientific horrors that dams bring (many veiled by the relatively short term advantages of things like Las Vegas), especially old, deteriorating, no-longer-even-arguable-useful ones, but I think it boils down to a general belief that rivers are meant to flow and when you stop them up you’re flying in the face of mama nature and that hardly ever leads, in the end, to good. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

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Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers?

<snip why dams are so great What do you all think?

well I think that … wait a second, there’s a brite and shiny piece of metal inside this morsel… and, hey, that’s connected to some almost invisible kind of thread.  I’d better go back to the safety of the weeds. Dave ‘looked like a juicy leech for a second there’ P

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Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

Response:

I’ve wondered this about myself. The two stretches of water I regret most in my life of not having run are Glen Canyon and Ripogenous Gorge, both beneath reservoirs. But both stretches of river *below* the dams are runnable primarily because the dams are there.  Yet, I still feel that I’d rather the river was wild and often unrunnable than tamed and runnable. I suppose its because I spend much more time than the average flatlander ON the river, so I get to feel and see all the multitude of interactions between the elements of a riparian community. The presence of a dam imbalances that so much, upstream, at-site and downstream, that it seems abominable. I don’t see dams primarily as ‘power-generating stations’ any more than I see a wooded hillside as ‘iron ore’ or a pollution belching city as ‘economic opportunity’. riverman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

Response:

I think overall anything changed in this world from its natural state is not good.  I know as an outdoor person I enjoy the beauty of nature in its natural state. Why don’t they spend more time and money on other forms of energy like Solar?  Would this not solve many problems like high oil, gas, electric costs?  As well as reduce pollution and other effects on the environment. Just my thoughts. Rgds – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why are paddlers most often against daming rivers? I honestly don’t understand why.  Seems to me, it is the cleanest and cheapest way to generate electricity on a large scale.  Furhter, the environmental impact is generally more localized than any other form of power generation.  This makes it easier to determine which ecosystems will be affected and if that impact is worth the benifits of the dam. They provide drinking water and a myriad of recreation opportunites (often times including whitewater releases) in addition to the electricity. I can understand frustration and anger with certain companies(like TVA) that are unwilling to work with us, but not the overall resentment of dams themselves. What do you all think? -k_thomas

Response:

Question:

Thanks Frank (Church), I just got the news service that you recommended up and running.  It posts messages with alacrity!  Unlike the new ISP I just subscribed to, which apparently only posts periodically.  I will use your suggested service I believe. Op

Response:

Cool Ope, and as a backup here’s one out of Canuckland that is even faster: (free-news.risq.qc.ca) with apologies to all our hoser roffians. Frank (pro-hoser) Church Elkhart, IN USAF RETIRED – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks Frank (Church), I just got the news service that you recommended up and running.  It posts messages with alacrity!  Unlike the new ISP I just subscribed to, which apparently only posts periodically.  I will use your suggested service I believe. Op

Response:

Thanks Frank (Church), I just got the news service that you recommended up and running.  It posts messages with alacrity!

That’s funny – my Alacrity Detector(tm) didn’t go off… /daytripper ("Back to the laboratory!")

Response:

Thanks Frank (Church), I just got the news service that you recommended up and running.  It posts messages with alacrity!

        *alacrity*?  a guy from boone who uses "alacrity"?  what the hell is the world coming to?         you go, opie! wayno

Response:

I just got the news service that you recommended up and running.  It posts messages with alacrity!

Damn Opie, now *I’ve* gotta go look something up in the dictionary…. Regards, Jeff

Response:

That’s funny – my Alacrity Detector(tm) didn’t go off…

That’s because it’s calibrated in nanoseconds. — visit my web site: http://home.earthlink.net/~royalwulff/ something bogus to avoid spam)

Response:

I just got the news service that you recommended up and running.  It posts messages with alacrity! Damn Opie, now *I’ve* gotta go look something up in the dictionary…. Regards, Jeff

Jeff, I got tired of hauling out my dictionary with the fine print just to read a fly fishing News Group so I bought a talking dictionary on a CD.  Now I look them up with alacrity.  I even know how to pronounce strange words that show up on ROFF. Ernie Harrison

Response:

Question:

Ok, we are two couples that want to rent a houseboat next May for our vacation.  No kids, 4 careers, all we want to do is a little fishing and a lot of relaxing.  We would like to keep the cost under $1500 for the week. Where’s the best place to go?  Currently we are in Ark and TX but 2 of us commute to NC and Europe.  What’s the best lake to go "houseboating"?   One says Lake of the Woods, one says Lake Mead.  I can’t find but a few web sites.  If you’ve done anything like this or have a recommendation please let me know.

Response:

There are quite a few "houseboating lakes" throughout North America.  It depends on where you want to go.  Some of the top lakes are (in no particular order): Lake Cumberland – KY Lake Powell-AZ Lake of the Ozarks-MO In your area, there is: Lake Ouchita – AR Lake Travis – TX I am sure I am leaving many out, so you can check out this link to find more "houseboating lakes" http://www.houseboatingworld.com/lake2.htm Thanks, Tim Gottschalk http://www.houseboatingworld.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, we are two couples that want to rent a houseboat next May for our vacation.  No kids, 4 careers, all we want to do is a little fishing and a lot of relaxing.  We would like to keep the cost under $1500 for the week. Where’s the best place to go?  Currently we are in Ark and TX but 2 of us commute to NC and Europe.  What’s the best lake to go "houseboating"? One says Lake of the Woods, one says Lake Mead.  I can’t find but a few web sites.  If you’ve done anything like this or have a recommendation please let me know.

Response:

I’ve been going to Cumberland Lake in Kentucky for last several years with 10-12 other guys for 4 days and 3 nights. This year took the wives (5 couples) and had best time of all. We rented a 64′ houseboat (they have several different models) and paid $1350 total including the fuel and another $100/couple for food &fuel for 3 speed/ski boats. For about $400/ couple you couldn’t do anything else so much fun and relaxing. Almost no houses in sight, just mountain sides all way around with over 1250 miles of natural shorline. Just so happens I have the brochure here in front of me on my  desk to get one reserved for 2000.  You might want to check them out at http://www.statedock.com  Jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, we are two couples that want to rent a houseboat next May for our vacation.  No kids, 4 careers, all we want to do is a little fishing and a lot of relaxing.  We would like to keep the cost under $1500 for the week. Where’s the best place to go?  Currently we are in Ark and TX but 2 of us commute to NC and Europe.  What’s the best lake to go "houseboating"? One says Lake of the Woods, one says Lake Mead.  I can’t find but a few web sites.  If you’ve done anything like this or have a recommendation please let me know.

Response:

Ok, we are two couples that want to rent a houseboat next May for our vacation.  No kids, 4 careers, all we want to do is a little fishing and a lot of relaxing.  We would like to keep the cost under $1500 for the week. Where’s the best place to go?  Currently we are in Ark and TX but 2 of us commute to NC and Europe.  What’s the best lake to go "houseboating"?   One says Lake of the Woods, one says Lake Mead.  I can’t find but a few web sites.  If you’ve done anything like this or have a recommendation please let me know.

Probably one of the premier houseboat rental vacations in the U.S. can be had at Lake Powell.  You mention Lake Mead as a possibility.  Mead is nice, but I would have to give a significant edge to Powell for its overwhelming scenery and top-flight houseboat rental operation.  From your location, you would drive past Lake Powell to get to Mead.  If you intend to fly to your destination, Powell has a nearby airport in Page, but airfare is somewhat expensive, like it is to most small towns. Unfortunately, summer rental rates start May 1.  Heavily discounted rates can be had prior to that date, but $1,536 will rent a 36 footer for 6 days at on-season rates.  The water will be quite chilly in May, but the ambient temperatures will be beautiful and the crowds will not have shown up yet. Go to www.visitlakepowell for an introduction and complete information on the houseboats, including rates. Russ

Response:

Ok, we are two couples that want to rent a houseboat next May for our vacation.  No kids, 4 careers, all we want to do is a little fishing and a lot of relaxing.  We would like to keep the cost under $1500 for the week. Where’s the best place to go?  Currently we are in Ark and TX but 2 of us commute to NC and Europe.  What’s the best lake to go "houseboating"?   One says Lake of the Woods, one says Lake Mead.  I can’t find but a few web sites.  If you’ve done anything like this or have a recommendation please let me know.

Check out State Dock at Lake Cumberland 1-800-234-DOCK.  We went with three couples with kids and had a blast. I know they have a web site, but I don’t remember what it is. A search will do it. — Alan Fishwick

Response:

Do you go to 76 Falls? Not really a place for kids thou.  We go a couple times a year just to be at the Falls. Going to be their again for Memorial Day weekend. Beautiful lake and surroundings. I tell the wife I want to pull up roots and move to Kentucky just to be closer to the lakes. Jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Check out State Dock at Lake Cumberland 1-800-234-DOCK.  We went with three couples with kids and had a blast. I know they have a web site, but I don’t remember what it is. A search will do it. — Alan Fishwick

Response:

All good choices, but no one has mentioned Ireland.  We have cruised the Shannon and the Shannon-Erne waterways (two trips), and enjoyed it very much.  Emerald Star Line is one of the best companies (we rented from them the second time).  We were using kind of "cabin cruiser" type boats, rather than the kind of house boats that would be found on Lake Powell. Of course, cruising the canals and rivers of France is also popular; we know people who have done that several times.  I believe that there are many waterways in Europe suitable for various kind of houseboats, including the long, skinny, and low canal boats. Richard – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ok, we are two couples that want to rent a houseboat next May for our vacation.  No kids, 4 careers, all we want to do is a little fishing and a lot of relaxing.  We would like to keep the cost under $1500 for the week. Where’s the best place to go?  Currently we are in Ark and TX but 2 of us commute to NC and Europe.  What’s the best lake to go "houseboating"?   One says Lake of the Woods, one says Lake Mead.  I can’t find but a few web sites.  If you’ve done anything like this or have a recommendation please let me know.

Response:

I along with 7 others also go to Lake Cumberland fishing for 8 days every year. We go in Oct. NOBODY around. Check out Grider Hill instead of State Dock, really great people, FINE houseboats! * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

We always stop in at Grider to get gas and watch the other boats. Seen the pic they have with a canoe going over 76 Falls? Jerry

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I along with 7 others also go to Lake Cumberland fishing for 8 days every year. We go in Oct. NOBODY around. Check out Grider Hill instead of State Dock, really great people, FINE houseboats! * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Ok, we are two couples that want to rent a houseboat next May for our vacation.  No kids, 4 careers, all we want to do is a little fishing and a lot of relaxing.  We would like to keep the cost under $1500 for the week. Where’s the best place to go?  Currently we are in Ark and TX but 2 of us commute to NC and Europe.  What’s the best lake to go "houseboating"? One says Lake of the Woods, one says Lake Mead.  I can’t find but a few web sites.  If you’ve done anything like this or have a recommendation please let me know.

I’m located on Lake of the Woods and it is a beautiful fresh water lake about 65 miles long and 35 at it’s widest point. There are several houseboat rental outfits on our Lake. I would be reluctant to recommend a houseboat rental in May on L.O.W for the simple reason that it is too early in the season. The water is very cold . We frequently still have ice on the lake around the 1st week of May. Depending on what part of May you are looking at you may find that fishing season is not open due to spawning. Temps. in the day may be nice however the evenings are still quite cold. Nope, if I was you I would stick to Lake Powell. Now if you can come up our way later in June you would have excellent fishing and warmer weather although the water temps are still quite cold. I have been on Lake of the Woods all my life. Feel free to e-mail me if your interested in any further info. on L.O.W. Rick

Response:

I have been on Lake of the Woods all my life. Feel free to e-mail me if your interested in any further info. on L.O.W.

Last time I was up there, the (what you guys call a) road going to the lake was sooo bad that I had to abandon my pop-up camper trailer along the side and come back for it later.  Beautiful area though… Steve — / / / / / /

Response:

I have been on Lake of the Woods all my life. Feel free to e-mail me if your interested in any further info. on L.O.W. Last time I was up there, the (what you guys call a) road going to the lake was sooo bad that I had to abandon my pop-up camper trailer along the side and come back for it later.  Beautiful area though… Steve — / / /

Seems like road construction, especially on Hwy 17 (International Fall MN to Kenora Ontario) is always under construction . You make a good point though for anyone towing a boat in this area. It is not unusual to have to travel miles and miles on what used to be a paved Highway and is now gravel while under going resurfacing. Rick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – / / /

Response:

Oh, yes, I’ve seen the pic!! When we go, in Oct. the lake is down so that when we put our bass boats in, the RAMP is a quarter mile long!! I really like Grider Hill, very pretty place, the guy that runs it is very nice, and helpful. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Go fishing off the Sava bridhe idiot and uyou can learn how to fly!

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Go fishing off the Sava bridge idiot and you can learn how to fly!

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing. ROTFL!  

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Go fishing off the Sava bridhe idiot and uyou can learn how to fly!

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing.

Go fishing off the Sava bridge idiot and you can learn how to fly!

Response:

NATO quiet! I`m fishing. ROTFL!  

Response:

Question:

Hi, I’m new to this NG and want to start with flyfishing, Can anyone give me some info on do’s and don’t ? Are there any good sites with info ? Any help would be appreciated Thanks Fred.

Response:

Search dejanews on this ng and you’ll find all kinds of good advice on technique, lots of sometimes conflicting advice on equipment, and some downright weird advice on politics and ethics<g. Have fun and welcome aboard. Hi, I’m new to this NG and want to start with flyfishing, Can anyone give me some info on do’s and don’t ? Are there any good sites with info ? Any help would be appreciated Thanks Fred.

– Charlie…

Response:

threads as we get this question (FAQ) "Frequently Asked Question more then a doze times a year.  However; I’ll give you my version in how it is best answered. 1)  Buy the book "Matching the Hatch" and use it as your number one fly fishing bible.  Buy this book first. 2)  Go to a fly shop fishing pro and find yourself a mentor and/or take lessons out of that store. 3)  Take a fly tying course. Remember, there are different stages of fly fishermen who catch the most fish. 1) The beginner 2) The intermediate 3) The master 4) The local ?  you ask?  The local is the one that usually breaks the most fishing laws and is probably the main poacher in the area.  They think they own everything. Hope this helps you get off on the right foot. Finally, use Gehrke’s Gink to float all your flies and Xink to sink all your wets.  Your wife will like that Fred. ; ) George Gehrke/President Gehrke’s Gink Hi, I’m new to this NG and want to start with flyfishing, Can anyone give me some info on do’s and don’t ? Are there any good sites with info ? Any help would be appreciated Thanks

All Writings

Question:

I will be up in Bend, Oregon next week and will be trying to fish Hosmer Lake next Friday, May 15.  Any word on if the road will be open?  If so, what is the fishing like there at that time of year?  Any particular patterns that would be more effective than others?  Help would be

Response:

Hosmer might still be snowed in. Try Black leech patterns if you can get in-mid-day or late afternoon best

Response:

I will be up in Bend, Oregon next week and will be trying to fish Hosmer Lake next Friday, May 15.  Any word on if the road will be open?  If so, what is the fishing like there at that time of year?  Any particular patterns that would be more effective than others?  Help would be

Hi Tom, I have only fished it in August, but heard that they had great caddis hatches in June. Early on fish can be pretty hungry and stupid so a black wolly bugger or leech might get ‘em. Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY www.kiene.com

Response:

I will be up in Bend, Oregon next week and will be trying to fish Hosmer Lake next Friday, May 15.  Any word on if the road will be open?  If so, what is the fishing like there at that time of year?  Any particular patterns that would be more effective than others?  Help would be

Tom Last I heard it’s still snowed in.  A couple of guys tried to hike in with belly boats and didn’t make it. Jim Jones For e-mail reply replace spam with sns

Response:

Question:

[snip snip] in the other direction. The Blue is good as is the Frying pan but the smaller and less fished rivers and creeks of N. Co. are a true joy. The fish may not be as big but the crowds are not there and the experience is

[snip snip] they won’t be for long if this keeps up… Tim Walker

Response:

I am going to Colorado next summer to fly fish.  Since I will be driving from West Virginia, I would prefer not to go more than 2 hours from Denver. I need advice as to the best streams to fish and possibly places to stay. I would prefer a cabin or cottage.  What about the South Platte, Fryingpan, Colorado, and Blue River? Which would be the best choice? Any help or suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks for you time. Scott

Response:

There are many good places within 2 hrs of Denver. The S.Platte is over fished and crowed with very inconsiderate fishermen. I would suggest going in the other direction. The Blue is good as is the Frying pan but the smaller and less fished rivers and creeks of N. Co. are a true joy. The fish may not be as big but the crowds are not there and the experience is much better. Pristene settings, little or no trash. Check out the high mountain lakes and streams of the RMNP. Estes Park Anglers can help with guides and places to stay in the area.

Response:

I try and visit my some of my kids in Colo every summer.  But as you know even in late August the So Platte at Deckers was unfishable and the Arkansas as well.  But maybe this summer will be normal…. South Platte River in Deckers.  Take Rt 285 west out of Denver.  Turn Left at Pine Junction.  Follow to the bottom the the canyon.  Use 2 flies, RS-2 and Buckskin (both nymphs) size 18 or 20.  No larger than a 6X leader is mandatory.  Use a small floating strike indicator and place a very small shot about 6 to 8 inches from the fly.  The idea is to keep the nymph just off the bottom so adjusting the indicator for water depth is essential.  Fish places where slow water meets fast water like behind larger rocks.  The fish are there so make sure you work the section very well adjusting the indicator for depth.  Looking for flashing fish near the bottom that are feeding.  Flip the rig up stream and let the indicator float as naturally as possible.  Keep repeating until the indicator hesitates the slightest in the float.  Just raise up you rod tip and bingo! there’s a fish on.   If you use this method correctly you will get hook ups (gauranteed!!) the trick is to bring them to net on a 6X leader in fast water.  The regulations are flies and lures only, 2 fish per day over 16 inches.  Try just down stream from the trestle bridge at Deckers.  The technique is effective on all Colo streams.  The "Flies and Lies" fly shop in Deckers can also help in supplying you with flies. On a Saturday, you will not be alone.  But there are so many fish and so few fisherman that know the method and use it effectively , it has never gotten in my way.  I’d recommend getting there at 1st light (Say 5:30) fish unitl 1000 AM and then leave.  Return at say 6 Pm and fish until dark (9 PM).  I’ve found you can avoid a crowd this way.                                                indicator                                                                                                                                  micro shot                        (e.g. lil corkie) In the current, looks like this flow is right to left                                                                                !                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 !                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 ! I’d also suggest Tarryall Resevoir, over Kenosha Pass (RT 285 west and turn left at Jefferson) in south park.  Wade fish from shore with damsel fly/dragon fly/sonefly nymphs twitched just below the surface (long leader, 10′).  You can cast to feeding fish.  Fish the side that has the paved road frontage toward the dam (in between the stone jettys).  There is very good dry fly activity there after the sun goes down (say 7pm) and dark. (Native browns, stocked rainbows (12-14") and even some cutthroat and kokanee).  Tarryall creek (not subject to runoff) downstream from the resevoir is also pretty good (this section is now part of a private club). We have had great success on the Arkansas River down stream from Salida.  Good success fishing for Browns on brown stone fly nymphs fished close shore.  Best technique is walk down the middle and fish both shore lines.  The other 2 flies that have been good to us are the muddler minnow and the Renegade.  This stretch has the same regulations as the Deckers section of the So. Platte.  The signs this summer indicated it is now Public Lands all the way down to the bridge in Wellsville. Keep in touch, maybe we can "hook up" when I am out there this summer (I hope). Good fishin!!! Bill Althoff

Response:

Question:

Did anyone catch a Namaycush on a fly (wet or dry)?

Response:

: Did anyone catch a Namaycush on a fly (wet or dry)? I fish lake trout quite frequently on the fly, in the spring, just after ice-out.  I normally throw a sink-tip or sinking line.  If the laker population is largely piscivorous (fish-eating), I start near an inflowing stream where they’ll probably be gorging on baitfish in fairly shallow water.  In Switzerland, I expect bream and perch are likely forage.  In these conditions, I’ll go with some kind of a flashy streamer.  With planktivorous lake trout populations (those feeding mainly on invertebrates), some kind of an emerger pattern, matching the activity you see in the water, is usually a good bet.  I’ve never caught a _really_ big one like this, but I can assure you that a 4 kg fish on a 4 weight rod is certainly a memorable experience! In my area, flies are pretty much out of contention by mid-June, unless you’re fishing a really smal, spring-fed lake, wherein you might be able to use a fast-sinking line and get them all summer long!  Oh joy; oh bliss! Hope this helps.  Tchuss! —                                 | Dave Fluri                      |       "No me agaro ya de nada, para North Bay, Ontario, Canada      |        asi no tener nada que defender."                                 |               -Carlos Castaneda                                 |

Response:

Question:

: I am planning a trip up to Montana to fish the Clarks Fork River.  I have : traveled past it many times.  I have no idea about fishing regulations, : favorable areas or fly patterns.  The area I am thinking of is around Missoula. Don’t just think Clark Fork River.  Just east of Missoula is Rock Creek.  Just north is the Jocko.  If you like BIG water, fish the Clark Fork.  If you like a small stream, do Rock Creek.  If you like real small, fish the Jocko.   The only problem with the Jocko is that it is on an Indian Reservation and requires a permit in addition to your fishing license. Check out a map.  There are many class rivers, all within an hour of Missoula.  Lots of great opportunities.  You don’t say when you will be there, but there are large stone fly in the Clark Fork.  I’m not sure what color since there was no hatch when I was there. Good Luck! Bob Moss Landing, Ca.

Response:

Perhaps the stone fly you refer to is the Skualla stone fly. This is a big fly, about size 8 or 10, and the Clark Fork above Missoula has lots of them. They emerge in early May, and the adult if best imitated by a med. to dark olive stimulator.  There are not alot of other good size flies on the surface this time of year, so they can really get the fishes attention.  Not many people know about them since the hatch is during the "off season". However, the locals around the Missoula really get excited about this stonefly. The area between the confluence of the Blackfoot and the confluence of Rock Creek seems best.

Response:

I am planning a trip up to Montana to fish the Clarks Fork River.  I have traveled past it many times.  I have no idea about fishing regulations, favorable areas or fly patterns.  The area I am thinking of is around Missoula.

Response: