Question:

. Cheap rod a child can use I should have mentioned, this is for a 2 year old. Rick

Depends on fishing habits and conditions. Your normal habits will of course have to change, mainly taking turns while the "sitter" of the moment explores nature, a little splashing, turning over rocks, touching moss-bark-worms-mud etc. a chest pak carrier (with the child facing forward) provides security, restraint, and mobility.  Of course the child will not remember it later but you will, as a most wondrous phase in your lives. I can tell you that as the family grows your fishing habits will continue change culminating with a trip with the grand children. Maybe if you are as lucky as me, Great grand children and the realization of how blessed your life has been and what fun fishing buddies you have.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past– Really.  I was waiting for some wag to suggest giving the kid a box of treble hooks the night before and then letting the doctors and your HMO take care of it from there, or something in equally poor taste…<G. Seriously, I liked the idea of taking the child, but the parents taking turns fishing.  Heck, by three or four, I was fishing – not quite with a fly yet, and not quite catching much (I’m not sure if I even had a complete hook – hey, if it’s not dynamite or electricity, it’s called _fishing_, not catching), but it taught me patience, etc. If that’s not practical, Peter’s idea seems pretty decent – maybe even find another couple in similar position (or even better, one non-fisher) and three can fish while one watches the kiddos. TC, R

BRAGGING RIGHTS::: At four my great grandson caught his first trophy large mouth, "gramps" cast,(we hadn’t known he was a lefty then) and lipped it. He did the rest. 21.5" of galloping bass, I’m surprised you didn’t hear me whooping.

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Will send you a video one day just to prove it )

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying. LOL.  This is one of the funniest lines I’ve read on ROFF (I hope you intended it that way) and a sure candidate for Brutally Honest Comment of the Year. JR

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"Jo" < Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying.

… Bad habits can be broken…… john

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You havent met my kids with a fishing rod 2 out of three are officially hyperactive and the other one is a budding self absorbed model god forbid any dirt attaching itself to that one. Fishing is actually stressful with them.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Jo" < Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying. … Bad habits can be broken…… john

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

I’ve got an almost-two year old myself, and I went on two vacations in two months–Maui in December and Orlando in January. During the trip to Maui, my mother came up from Raleigh, NC to PA and stayed at our house with the baby.  Baby sleeps in her own bed, gets spoiled by grandma for 8 days, loves it.  Baby learns to say "Hawaii" and locate the islands on the globe.  Mom & Dad enjoy the islands for a week. During the trip to FL, my grandmother & aunt (both live practically next door) shared the same duties as my mom did a month earlier.  Baby sleeps in own bed, gets spoiled by auntie & great-grandma for a 4-day weekend.  Mom & Dad bring home ‘mouse ears’ for baby, in an effort to remove the mouse ears, baby snaps elastic chin strap against face, cries vigorously.  Mom & Dad supress laughter (mostly). My tactic so far has been simple:  don’t take the kid. I share your dilemma.  Life with two year old is not really the ideal situation for spending day after day astream, especially if Mom wants to go fishing as badly as Dad does… The ‘find a couple and share babysitting’ plan is a good one.  You could probably get 6 weekends/year from that plan.  One weekend/month/couple:  one month you babysit, one month they babysit. If your life is anything like mine (hectic), one weekend every other month is probably as often as you can get away. Basically, my advice is this:  FAMILY.  Grandparents, great- grandparents (if your child is so lucky) aunts & uncles, etc.  They’re the best babysitters money can buy (free), and they’ll treat your child like family–obviously.  And most kids think of grandma or a favorite aunt/uncle as being at least as fun as the county fair, if not better. If you can get a family member to staty at your house, so much the better.  Thell them to pay-per-view anything they’d like, give them some $$$ for ordering pizza, etc., and make sure they know where the local park is and how to get there. If you don’t have any family in driving distance, consider moving. Unless, that is, you live far from family by design. <g  In which case I have no worthwhile advice for you. Some weekends, I’d give anything for a few hours of privacy (wink wink, nod nod) with the spousal unit.  I don’t care if the baby lives on M&Ms and Potato Chips for the entire weekend–just make sure there’s no crying in the background when I call to see how things are and I’ll have a good time without baby. With the upcomping Penns Clave, the wife & I are considering buying a big cabin tent (we live less than an hour from Coburn) and taking baby camping for the first time.  I’ve got some misgivings about exposing wife and baby to ROFFians, but it’s a possibility.  Wife doesn’t fly fish (yet), and baby will probably want to throw rocks in creek all day, but I’ve yet to find a better way to spend lots of time at the Clave.  Since we’re less than an hour from home, the worst that could happen is that we all go home at night. Tom G constantly struggling to find time to fish

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Not only family but friends are good resources.  Last time we took boys fishing (one good ol’ boy and one city boy), we went with Ol’ Whiskerface’s buddy.  One day, I’d take the kids sightseeing (indian ruins, big rocks, A&W rootbeer), the next day one or both menfolks would take one or both boys fishing, while I caught dinner.  We kinda "spread the wealth."  Now both boys all groan up and never call their mother.  Enjoy the little beggers while you can. Bob’s Wife in El Paso. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Basically, my advice is this:  FAMILY.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Really.  I was waiting for some wag to suggest giving the kid a box of treble hooks the night before and then letting the doctors and your HMO take care of it from there, or something in equally poor taste…<G. Seriously, I liked the idea of taking the child, but the parents taking turns fishing.  Heck, by three or four, I was fishing – not quite with a fly yet, and not quite catching much (I’m not sure if I even had a complete hook – hey, if it’s not dynamite or electricity, it’s called _fishing_, not catching), but it taught me patience, etc. If that’s not practical, Peter’s idea seems pretty decent – maybe even find another couple in similar position (or even better, one non-fisher) and three can fish while one watches the kiddos.   TC, R – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Life as you knew is over. Some good tips in this thread but none that will make it like it was.  One reason there is so many geezers in roff is they have to wait till the kids leave and the dog dies to get back to fly fishing.  Fish when you can enjoy the kid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it.

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Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations?      None of my exes ever minded being left back at the cabin to watch the kids. Ummm, let me reword that, umm oh cripes, I think I’m starting to understand something.                   Charlie,                   getting in touch with my feminine side

    I think I know what you’re saying. My wife, when annoyed one time after I came home from a six hour round, asked me if I ever wondered why the 3 other guys in my Sunday morning foursome are all divorced.                                     Kelly

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[snip]     I think I know what you’re saying. My wife, when annoyed one time after I came home from a six hour round, asked me if I ever wondered why the 3 other guys in my Sunday morning foursome are all divorced.                                     Kelly

the answers are: "Because I have a wonderful wife and their wives were real B^%$^s"  or "Now don’t go putting any silly ideas in my head"

Response:

I was expecting to hear something about lodges with rivers and kid programs, but I’d forgotten the warmth, creativity and thoughtfulness of this list. Several of the responses had me roaring with laughter. Thanks. Rick

Response:

I was expecting to hear something about lodges with rivers and kid programs, but I’d forgotten the warmth, creativity and thoughtfulness of this list. Several of the responses had me roaring with laughter. Thanks. Rick

All in a days work, Rick! As a single guy for 42 years, you damn sure don’t want a serious reply from me.  Besides, I wouldn’t have a clue what to suggest.  But I have heard that bears are nurturing critters, to a point. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

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Seriously I think the only thing that would come close is taking the kid,…I have a friend who had been fly fishing with her dad since the age of 3 she is now 50 and coaches top fly fishers herself. Some of us are really lucky to have understanding spouses, in fact mine cancelled a golf afternoon without a blink because I planned to go fishing away for a weekend and forgot to tell him. Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was expecting to hear something about lodges with rivers and kid programs, but I’d forgotten the warmth, creativity and thoughtfulness of this list. Several of the responses had me roaring with laughter. Thanks. Rick

Response:

Admittedly I would never take my kids fishing they are obnoxious and annoying.

LOL.  This is one of the funniest lines I’ve read on ROFF (I hope you intended it that way) and a sure candidate for Brutally Honest Comment of the Year. JR

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Response:

Cheap rod a child can use

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Response:

. Cheap rod a child can use I should have mentioned, this is for a 2 year old. Rick

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations?

Each of you fish half a day. There’ll be plenty of time for romance fishing when the kid’s older. –Steve (hey, you asked…)

Response:

Children are God’s way of telling you that you have no business enjoying life. As toddlers they take up your time because they are helpless otherwise. As adolescents they must be shuttled to and fro from one activity to the next. As teenagers they are mean, nasty, vulgar little shits that may or may not require bail. As young adults they seem to have finally gotten their shit together, but will eventually destroy what is left of your sanity. As full grown adults they will fight with their siblings over some supposed fortune you are planning to leave, and then place you and your spouse in separate retirement homes. Realize of course that I speak from experience as a single guy.  BTW, mom and dad left me with nothing and they are presently communicating via the USPS, because I wouldn’t pay to have phone installed in their rooms at Shady Lake and Happy Trails Retirement Centers. Opie  –Bastard Son–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations? Lodges with kids programs? Day cares in town? I know that it’s always possible to hire a local person as a sitter, but I’m thinking more about organized, professional care which will be more fun for the child. TIA, Rick

Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter Visit The Streamer Page at http://members.home.net/pcharles/streamers/index.html

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Find another couple with the same problem. Their passion doesn’t have to be fishing, could be golf, tennis, whatever.  The couples take turns looking after the other’s child.  Since the visiting child gets to play with a new playmate and toys, interest should not be a problem. Peter

Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

Response:

Damn!  I hate it when people give sound and thoughtful advice. Opie  –Planning for the Past–

It’s a dirty job, but somebody’s gotta do it. Peter

Response:

Not much will stop a fishing couple from fishing, but lack of child care will do it. I’m wondering how others have handled this at fishing destinations?

     None of my exes ever minded being left back at the cabin to watch the kids. Ummm, let me reword that, umm oh cripes, I think I’m starting to understand something.                   Charlie,                   getting in touch with my feminine side

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Question:

excerpt from xmision.com’s acceptable use policy "The posting of any advertisement or other commercial solicitation to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited, except in the few areas specifically reserved for such postings."

How exactly was announcing the creation of a new Utah related fly fishing site a ‘commercial solicitation?’  The site’s not trying to sell anything. Cut the guy some slack.

Response:

I did. He posted a message earlier in the week and neither I nor anyone else commented. This is his second post within a week. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – excerpt from xmision.com’s acceptable use policy "The posting of any advertisement or other commercial solicitation to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited, except in the few areas specifically reserved for such postings." How exactly was announcing the creation of a new Utah related fly fishing site a ‘commercial solicitation?’  The site’s not trying to sell anything. Cut the guy some slack.

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New fly fishing website just launched… http://www.utahonthefly.com/

Response:

So your announcement last week wasn’t the real opening excerpt from xmision.com’s acceptable use policy "The posting of any advertisement or other commercial solicitation to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited, except in the few areas specifically reserved for such postings." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – New fly fishing website just launched… http://www.utahonthefly.com/

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Question:

I just signed up for the three day class with Outdoors, Inc. in St. Louis. Is it worth the $350? Bob

Response:

Robert D. Sheppard writes: I just signed up for the three day class with Outdoors, Inc. in St. Louis. Is it worth the $350? Bob

If you are a beginner, yes. Coming back after a long hiatus, yes. Been ffing for a year, maybe. Been ffing for a few years, no. Dave LaCourse

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depends…is that the one that includes budweiser? jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just signed up for the three day class with Outdoors, Inc. in St. Louis. Is it worth the $350? Bob

Response:

Question:

George: <<Doug Knight was just given a laboratory test and demonstration of CDC Emergers (his choice of flies to test)  in the film, without and WITH Gehrke’s Gink.  I cannot begin to express to all of you, LaCourse in particular and Mike Connor, how wrong  you both are regarding CDC tied flies and Gink.  I have pictures of his CDC Emergers on the bottom, lifeless and floatless without Gehrke’s Gink and the singular Dressed CDC GINK assisted CDC Emerger, the only fly ABLE TO float ON TOP of the water.

And how do we know they were truly CDC?  I have true CDC.  I use it on emerger patterns.  I tied up two and did the test with and without Gink.   Both flied floated as I expected them to.  But the Ginked fly did not, I repeat, DID NOT capture air bubbles, while the untreated fly DID.  That is the whole reason for usinging CDC, George.  CDC as a dry fly makes no sense because other materials make better more durable wings.  But you can not beat CDC as an ermerger pattern *if you want to capture air bubbles*.  CDC does that just fine because of its "bottle brush" barbuls.  Reread what Leeson and Schollmeyer say about it.  It is not a mystery, George. Gink or any other floatant *including preening oil* messes up the barbuls and makes the CDC feather *just an ordinary feather*.   And why would I go through the expense and bother of tying an emerger pattern that traps air when I could use marabou.  CDC captures air bubbles.  CDC treated with Gink or any floatant does not.  Period. Dave LaCourse

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[filled the virtual circular file with plenty o' snippage] However!  REMEMBER THIS DAVID, there is nothing a CDC feather doesn’t do that GINKED, it will do better.

I’ve read this at least three times…Can’t understand it – nor why I’d want to remember it. I think it hurt my brain, though. Perhaps permanently… Think of it like this David.  A BARE HOOK with just two cdc feathers will float on still water, but so will a bare hook dressed only with Gink.

Now here was a bold statement that I could sink my thoughts into. And – BONUS! – it didn’t hurt my brain. Thus rising to the challenge, I ventured forth down the hall to the world reknown Daytripper Laboratory (second door on the right), intent on conducting a rigorous scientific test of the above theory. I vowed not to leave the lab until the required experiments were completed. After donning a pair of latex gloves to avoid any chance of contamination of the test and control subjects, I gathered ten brand new Mustad #8 3906B hooks together, mixed them well, then randomly (I even closed my eyes) separated them into two groups of five hooks. I then randomly selected one of the groups (using the precise "Eeeny Meeny Miney Moe" procedure) to become the test subject group, and then carefully slathered each hook from the selected group with GINK, from eye to point. The other group of five hooks became the Control Group. The GINK was obtained from the bottom of a bottle which had spontaneously expelled most of its contents all over my fishing vest – adding character (and a huge greasy stain) to said vest – the discovery of which led to "The Bottle Formerly Filled With GINK" to immediately experience the joy of flight. Alternating between members of the two groups, I then took each hook carefully in the grip of a pair of fine surgical steel hemostats (borrowed from the same fishing vest). I then set each hook (singly, in turn) on the surface film of a beaker of H2O chilled to precisely 62 degrees Fahrenheit (which we all know to be the exact temperature conducive to both dry fly fishing for salmonids and for wet wading). I then observed the results of the experiment: all five GINK-ladened hooks from the group of test subjects and all five naked unGINKed hooks from the control group all sank like so many small stones to the bottom of the beaker. Conclusion: GINK won’t keep a #8 3906B hook afloat on the surface of water, thus proving that the claim is not global in nature. Please send $1000 to me, George, to reimburse the extensive cost of conducting this experiment, and of operating the world reknown Daytripper Laboratory. I’ll put the funds to very good use, I promise (the world reknown Daytripper Laboratory could use a new exhaust fan, an upgraded toilet seat, and a new towel rack. Oh – and an actual working lock on the laboratory door – so that when I’m reading the newspaper with my morning coffee searching for a new theory to test, I won’t be interrupted…) /daytripper

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Dave, and others, I have an agenda.. it has to do with pictures of people "greasing up" CDC feathers… sounds vaguely.. how can i say this.. erotic?  perhaps you can post to rec.outdoors.erotica.fishing.fly ?? please? Of course, I may be misreading your post… cheers from a perv, edwin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bottom line, George:   Gink works for *most applications* but not on CDC.  I will take the word of Leeson and Schollmeyer and every fly shop owner I have ever talked to concerning "greasing" up a CDC long before I take your word on the subject.  You have an agenda; they do not. Dave LaCourse

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – CDC flies are deadly effective: they catch trout! When they do, they get slimed and they lose their floating properties. The following works for me: 1)  Squeeze rinse the fly in the stream to get rid of as much trout slime, dirt, etc. as possible. 2)  Dry the fly on shirt or handkerchief (some swine nicked my amadou). 3)  Lightly Gink the CDC. 4)  Wipe off surplus on trousers. 5)  Roll the fly around in the palm of hand in a small pile of powder fly dessicant (cheap stuff, nothing fancy) to remove almost all of the Gink and to unclog and ‘fluff up’ the CDC. It works for me. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

Hi Tony, actually just washing and drying it thoroughly without applying anything will work as well. I have been experimenting for quite a while with various things, and I have had the best results up to now using a product called Watershed applied some time before fishing ( night before at least ), and allowed to dry before fluffing up the fly again.  This seems to make it easier to wash and dry the fly after sliming it, but I am still not absolutely certain whether or not it affects the floating properties much at all. The product works quite well on normal dry flies,  as indeed does Gink ), and because it dries completely and invisibly without apparent residue, it at least does not affect the floating properties of CDC adversely as practically all other liquid or paste type floatants I have tried do. Anything which clogs the fibres will reduce the surface area of the feather, and hence the floating properties, as these depend directly on this factor. This is in fact the same reason why the slime is detrimental. To be perfectly fair and honest I have never tried Gink on CDC flies using your method, but then again I can see no particular advantage in doing so, as my CDC flies float perfectly well without any dressing at all up to the moment they first become slimed. I have tried Gink used in the normal way, just applying it and then casting the fly, this will clog and sink a brand new CDC fly pretty quick actually. You can try this quite easily, you will see it is true. Presumably the trick is to dry the fly very thoroughly again after applying the Gink, but then again, a clean dry CDC fly will float well anyway, so what is the point in adding anything to it at all, unless this makes the subsequent cleaning and  drying procedure easier or more effective, which Gink does not do ? ( And which I hoped Watershed might, which is why I tried it in the first place ). It is something of an involved  quandary I am afraid. To recap: A new dry CDC fly floats perfectly well until it becomes slimed. After thorough washing and drying it floats perfectly well again, although this takes time, and one usually ties on a new fly instead of attempting to resurrect the clogged one. ( At least I do ). A new dry CDC fly pre-treated with watershed and thoroughly dried and fluffed floats perfectly well until it becomes slimed. ( I get the impression that it is easier and quicker to de-slime and dry the fly here, subjective at the moment, but a possible advantage). ( On sub-surface CDC flies this definitely results in more air being trapped and staying trapped longer before the fly clogs, useful for some patterns and a possible advantage). A new dry CDC fly treated with practically any of the commonly used floatants in the conventional way loses most if not all of its floating capabilities, and in fact in some cases will sink like a stone, and not work again until completely cleaned of the substance and dried. Whereupon it is again as good as new. Your method of applying Gink after drying the fly first, and then drying it again also works you say, ( I have no reason to doubt it ) until the fly again becomes slimed. But as Gink does not allow the fly to be more easily deslimed and dried again or to float properly in a slimed state then what is the point of the Gink ? My only conclusion up to now is that you have found a way to use Gink which at least does not lessen the floating or air retaining properties of CDC appreciably, ( which as it happens also agrees with Georges findings ), but it does nothing to enhance them either.Certainly not on sub-surface flies. I would be interested in your comments, and a fair test of the above ideas if you are willing. Tight lines ! Mike Connor

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (We can post the photographs if desired.  I’d do it now if it wasn’t for the fact my digital camera to computer connection isn’t working tonight.) Doug Knight was just given a laboratory test and demonstration of CDC Emergers (his choice of flies to test)  in the film, without and WITH Gehrke’s Gink.  I cannot begin to express to all of you, LaCourse in particular and Mike Connor, how wrong  you both are regarding CDC tied flies and Gink.  I have pictures of his CDC Emergers on the bottom, lifeless and floatless without Gehrke’s Gink and the singular Dressed CDC GINK assisted CDC Emerger, the only fly ABLE TO float ON TOP of the water. Well . . . there is a secret on how to use GINK on C.D.C. Feathers because they are so flimsy and fine.  You fluff them up by  blowing on them after you GINK Them.   Properly Dressed with the World’s Best Dry Fly Dressing, CDC tied flies abilities to float are IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY, boys and girls. So don’t  buy the incorrect statement anymore that CDC tied feathers and/or flies are ruined because they’re dressed with Gehrke’s Gink.  I can see where it might be wrong to use other dry fly dressings, but in this case as compared to other Dry Fly Dressings and situations . . . Gehrke’s GINK is still KING.  Everyone SHOULD USE, Gehrke’s Gink Dry Fly Dressing on CDC tied flies.  In fact, ESPECIALLY if they’re tied with CDC feathers. What I like about CDC feathers is when they’re used for wings.  They’re less likely to spin a fine tippet into a snarled mess. "Gink Keeps It Up"  All Around The World Gink IS King. Please tell us the pattern and what color foam was used for the body   Harry

No foam.  No Cheating.  Fly tied by Harry Mason & CDC Caddis Emerger.  Look for the picture somewhere on this thread.  Good question Harry. Doug Knight Call me at 509-243-5500 For More Info.

Response:

PURE FACT!  Pure scientific fact.  Proven in the lab here. I picture an old coffee mug filled with water

Just Blue’s water bowl. I mean clean. Check the picture on this thread. I was glad to be a part of the test. Blue is a great dog. Doug Knight Hairy Trout

Response:

 ____  Some valid points Mike.  Please understand me when I say the secret is to go ahead and apply GINK but then blow on the fly to refluff and separate the barbles.  The barbles are now waterproofed whereas they are not, any other way. There is not enough natural CDC oils in these feathers to fight also the weights of dry flies.  Enter now, GINK.  Gink Keeps It Up. Thanks for listening.  Remember to blow to fluff first. George

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – George: <<Doug Knight was just given a laboratory test and demonstration of CDC Emergers (his choice of flies to test)  in the film, without and WITH Gehrke’s Gink.  I cannot begin to express to all of you, LaCourse in particular and Mike Connor, how wrong  you both are regarding CDC tied flies and Gink.  I have pictures of his CDC Emergers on the bottom, lifeless and floatless without Gehrke’s Gink and the singular Dressed CDC GINK assisted CDC Emerger, the only fly ABLE TO float ON TOP of the water. And how do we know they were truly CDC?  I have true CDC.  I use it on emerger patterns.  I tied up two and did the test with and without Gink.   Both flied floated as I expected them to.  But the Ginked fly did not, I repeat, DID NOT capture air bubbles, while the untreated fly DID.  That is the whole reason for usinging CDC, George.  CDC as a dry fly makes no sense because other materials make better more durable wings.  But you can not beat CDC as an ermerger pattern *if you want to capture air bubbles*.  CDC does that just fine because of its "bottle brush" barbuls.  Reread what Leeson and Schollmeyer say about it.  It is not a mystery, George. Gink or any other floatant *including preening oil* messes up the barbuls and makes the CDC feather *just an ordinary feather*. And why would I go through the expense and bother of tying an emerger pattern that traps air when I could use marabou.  CDC captures air bubbles.  CDC treated with Gink or any floatant does not.  Period. Dave LaCourse

Good question Dave. Since the same Harry Mason tied the flies and also sold an ounce to me, I know that these are the real McCoy’s. Plucked right off the Duck’s Ass. The origanal question as I recall was if GINK would float a CDC fly. Yes, it does. And you proved that yourself. Trapped air on a submerged CDC emerger is another matter. AIR BUBBLES! Gasp! Ole Goerge might think these to be mini "beadheads". I’ll use whatever I can to get fish. Doug Knight On the Snake River under a towering thunderhead tonight!

Response:

CDC flies are deadly effective: they catch trout! When they do, they get slimed and they lose their floating properties.

DRY FLY GRADING SYSTEM: The following works for me: 1)  Squeeze rinse the fly in the stream to get rid of as much trout slime, dirt, etc. as possible.

 _______  You get a Gold Star By your Name. 2)  Dry the fly on shirt or handkerchief (some swine nicked my amadou).

3)  Lightly Gink the CDC.

4)  Wipe off surplus on trousers.

own floatation abilities! 5)  Roll the fly around in the palm of hand in a small pile of powder fly dessicant (cheap stuff, nothing fancy) to remove almost all of the Gink and to unclog and ‘fluff up’ the CDC.

It works for me. Tight Lines, Tony Deacon

______  Nice post Tony.   Tight lines — Mr. G. "All’s Fair With Fur or CDC Feathers"  gg http://www.gink.com

Question:

I don’t have any experience with a Pack, but I think it would be a BIG mistake to buy a short wide boat unless you were really certain you needed to for some specific reason. There are many longer boats that are stable enough to stand up in and easy to paddle solo (Camper for one), and you sacrifice so much in speed and fun and tracking by having a fat short boat. Also seems like to me that having to reach out far enough to paddle such a wide boat would be very tiring. I wouldn’t even consider buying a Pack without a good bit of demo and comparison…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for a lightweight single canoe for paddling and fly fishing.  I am interested in the Old Town Pack model.  I had an experienced paddler tell me that they are very tippy?  Anyone have experience paddling one of these littl e beauties? Thanks, Paul

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I am looking for a lightweight single canoe for paddling and fly fishing.  I am interested in the Old Town Pack model.  I had an experienced paddler tell me that they are very tippy?  Anyone have experience paddling one of these littl e beauties? Thanks, Paul

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Paul I’ve fished out of one for years. It doesn’t actually belong to me but a friend lets me use it. I use on section of creek that is class II ww and have no problem. As a matter of fact it is the boat that introduced me to solo ww paddling I now own a Dagger Ovation OC1. The boat can be a little tippy but it tracks well and if you’ve kayaked you will have no trouble fishing from it. I usually kneel and have glued some pads in it for more comfort. Bill Pierskalla

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Question:

planning a four day trip over Bishop Pass with the object of climbing Mt. Sill. I haven’t done it yet, but am planning to by next year. I was planning on five days… day 1 to Dusy Basin, day 2 to Glacier Creek, summit on day 3, back to Dusy Basin on day 4, out on day 5. You might consider this, it makes more sense to me. If you do it in four, I’d love to hear about how it went! Cheers, Kevin

You should be able to do it in three.  South Lake to Barrett Lakes. Sill on day two and back out over Thunderbolt pass and Bishop Pass day three.

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Greetings all, We three not-so-young-but-in-very-good-shape guys with good backpacking experience but no climbing experience are planning a four day trip over Bishop Pass with the object of climbing Mt. Sill. I’ve done some research on this and have found out the SW chutes up Mt. Sill are rated at only class 2 (maybe some avoidable class 3 bits). We like the sound of that. We’ve got a couple questions, though, if anyone has been up that way and has wise words for us. 1) Should we try to camp in the Palisade Basin or go all the way to the Glacier Creek area? We’re not sure how difficult Potluck Pass would be with our packs. As I said, we’re in good shape, but we’re not real mountaineers. 2) Is there fishing in either the Barrett Lakes or in the lake at the head of Glacier Creek? My dad, who’s coming, is a big fly fisherman (though he’s not above using bait if he’s hungry enough and the fishing is really bad). This could influence our decision on where to camp. Mmmmm, trout. 3) Does anyone have any advice on the climb of Sill, other than to make for the Polemonium Glacier and turn NE up the chutes to the top of Sill? We figure we can do this in a long roundtrip with only day packs. We’re right about that, aren’t we? We’re not interested at this time in getting killed or rescued (I suppose we’d take the latter over the former, but the embarassment factor would be awfully high). Thanks so much for any information that might make this a better trip. We’re very excited and look forward to that beautiful late Summer Sierra weather. (We actually attempted this trip three years ago and got snowed out at the trailhead. We ended up driving South and climbing Mt. Whitney instead. That was lucky. So we know we are being a bit risky.) Again, thanks for any tips and I’ll post a trip report when we’re back. Franz —         But now almost finished dissertating in Los Angeles  N.B.: Disguised address; please remove "delete-this." if replying.

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Question:

Hey John Fereira!    My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?    This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry, — lukn4fish Bob San Jose, Ca

Response:

Hey John Fereira!   My news server has been out for three days and I just noticed on the news.groups that a CFV has started for flytying. Has it been posted here on ROFF?   This is the time folks! You don’t have to discuss it any more, just vote. I’ve sent in my vote and received a reply that it has been counted. Keep your feet dry,

Yes, it was posted here, in rec.outdoors.fishing, and in news.groups. I vote YES for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying or I vote NO for rec.outdoors.fishing.fly.tying as the only line in the text of the message. — John Fereira Isis Distributed Systems – Ithaca, NY

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Question:

writes:    A lot of people are touting the blood knot.

For more interesting reading on knots, including blood knots, try the current issue of FLY FISHERMEN where their test indicate that only two knots retain 100% line strength, given current tippet materials: the Palomar and the Trilene knot. Very interesting…

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I gave up on the clinch and trilene this year because they kept pulling out on big fish, despite very cautious tying. I quit using them because I decided

Without commenting on which knots are best, let me point out that most break-offs will occur at a knot, no matter which knot you use.  The UIAA routinely tests mountaineering ropes, and this is common knowlege to such testing agencies.  It makes intuitive sense when you think about it: stress is concentrated at the bends in a knot. — -Wayne Trzyna

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  A lot of people are touting the blood knot. Blood knots are not as good as they used to be! The newer multi polymer monofilaments are so hard and slick, the blood knot (and the clinch, inproved clinch, and Trilene knots) does not bite. We have a very sophisticated (read expensive) motor driven strain guage device that tests lines and knots to .01 pounds. 7 turn blood knots on Orvis SSS, Dai Riki, and Umpqua pull themselves apart at somewhere around 60-70% of the material breaking strength.

Ralph, I’ve abandoned the blood-knot alltogether because I’ve noticed an alarming decrease in strength in that connection with the new leader materials in recent years. I was beginning to fear that my own ability to tie the knot effectively had diminished, but your breaking strength measurements tell the real story. I now use the double-surgeon’s knot to connect the tapering segments of my leader and the double-surgeon’s loop-to-loop connection to attach tippets. Have you had the opportunity to measure the breaking strength of double-surgeons knots? Does the triple-surgeon’s provide significant additional strength? Thanks, Fred

Response:

  A lot of people are touting the blood knot. Blood knots are not as good as they used to be! The newer multi polymer monofilaments are so hard and slick, the blood knot (and the clinch, inproved clinch, and Trilene knots) does not bite. We have a very sophisticated (read expensive) motor driven strain guage device that tests lines and knots to .01 pounds. 7 turn blood knots on Orvis SSS, Dai Riki, and Umpqua pull themselves apart at somewhere around 60-70% of the material breaking strength.

I gave up on the clinch and trilene this year because they kept pulling out on big fish, despite very cautious tying. I quit using them because I decided that after all these years of using them I must have lost the ability to tie them properly ! I never suspected the mono may be a contributing factor. Used the non-slip mono loop all year and it worked pretty well for me. I use double surgeon’s loops to join tippet to butt (when I use a butt).                                                 jc

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7 turn blood knots on Orvis SSS, Dai Riki, and Umpqua pull themselves apart at somewhere around 60-70% of the material breaking strength. Ralph,

Thanks for telling me the names of leader material to avoid when constructing tapered leaders. Ernie Harrison

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   A lot of people are touting the blood knot. Blood knots are not as good as they used to be! The newer multi polymer monofilaments are so hard and slick, the blood knot (and the clinch, inproved clinch, and Trilene knots) does not bite. We have a very sophisticated (read expensive) motor driven strain guage device that tests lines and knots to .01 pounds. 7 turn blood knots on Orvis SSS, Dai Riki, and Umpqua pull themselves apart at somewhere around 60-70% of the material breaking strength. I gave up on the clinch and trilene this year because they kept pulling out on big fish, despite very cautious tying. I quit using them because I decided that after all these years of using them I must have lost the ability to tie them properly ! I never suspected the mono may be a contributing factor. Used the non-slip mono loop all year and it worked pretty well for me. I use double surgeon’s loops to join tippet to butt (when I use a butt).                       jc

I’ve noticed the same thing with blood knots!  Thanks for the explanation.  I replaced the blood knot with the triple surgeons knot for any line/line connection.  According to a recent study, this line holds 100% of the weaker lines strength, wet or dry.  It’s simple to tie.  The only problem is that the any of the popular "double line through the eye" knots seem to be about the strongest, most durable knot I can find.  Anyone got a very strong, non-tightening loop knot as I fish for Stripers and like the free swing for the fly.  Most loops that I tie either slip or break and I’m looking for alternatives.  Most tippets I use are from 12-24lb Dai Rikki.  Thanks.     Tim —- "Just say no to bait"

Response:

Hi Dan! Thanks for the kind words regarding the slide show.         Re: blood knots. Your formula for X number of turns for X size tippet is rational.          We lubricate the line with KY jelly (it is water soluble unlike silicone) prior to drawing up the knots. Then we soak the line in water to a). remove the lubricant, and b) to test the wet strength of the line and knot. It defies common sense to depend on dry strength for fishing line; however, I’ve NEVER seen anyone else do it.          Wet testing demonstrates some pretty wierd changes in tippet diameter, static strength, dynamic strength, stretch, and abraision resistance. The fluorocarbon lines really shine when compared against standard nylon and multi polymer monofilaments.         You probably want to know what leaders I use?! Umpqua pre tapered leaders because I get them at cost. I replace the tippet section with Dai Rikki Velvet for normal (trout) conditions or with Dai Rikki Diver when I need abraision resistance (toothy critters or abraisive bottom structure).         Tight lines, Ralph —

Response:

   A lot of people are touting the blood knot. Blood knots are not as good as they used to be! The newer multi polymer monofilaments are so hard and slick, the blood knot (and the clinch, inproved clinch, and Trilene knots) does not bite. We have a very sophisticated (read expensive) motor driven strain guage device that tests lines and knots to .01 pounds. 7 turn blood knots on Orvis SSS, Dai Riki, and Umpqua pull themselves apart at somewhere around 60-70% of the material breaking strength.    Back to back uni- knots are excellent as are three turn surgeons knots. I still use blood knots on the heavier parts of my leader because the line is so strong there, someting up front is going to break even though the blood knots is not 100%. Blood knots look cool, sound neat as they click through the guides and don’t tend to catch as much gunk as other joining knots. In short I like ‘em alot but use them with with prejudice.    The strongest loop knot for attaching flies is the monofilamnet loop knot as seen in Kreh’s new knot book. Lefty claims the uni-knot is weak, but our machine says it consistently tests 90-100%. In practice it’s easy to tie and doesn’t take up as mucj material as the monofilament loop knot. Its big disadvantage is that the loop cinches up where the monofilament loop knot is permanent.    tight knots! Ralph —

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Question:

I promised to take my mother flyfishing for a day. Since she has a touch of arthritis, and can’t storm around a rocky streambed too well, I’m looking for a half day float trip somewhere within striking distance of Washington, D.C. Preferably trout,  smallmouth bass okay too. Heard there was a place on the Jackson River in VA. A bed and breakfast with drift boats launched from the front lawn. Anybody know of it? please send a copy of your reply to me at

Response:

I’ve driven past a Bed and Breakfast that has property right on the Upper Jackson and their pamplet said "fishing available". Its off of 39, west of Warm Springs..If you’re interested, I’ll post the name and phone number of the place the next time I’m over at our guide shop….Ron Bennett Flyfishing Virginia L.L.C.  804 467-6668 "Guide service for trout and smallmouth"

Response:

great float trips on Pine Creek in Northcentral PA,…excellent gourmet restuarant and lodge at Cedar Run–Cedar Run Inn

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Unless they have been getting some rain, might be alot of dragging over rocks in Pine Creek by now.  It is a pretty float. Cedar Run Inn is pretty busy in weekends, may be hard to get reservation.                                       regards leo

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Question:

Does anyone have information on flyfishing on the Olympic Peninsula.  Lakes, streams, river, salt, etc. Alan

Response:

While looking through some fishing catalogs that have recently made it to my mailbox, a question came to mind… I know that a tapered leader is an option…and so is a knotted taper… my question is, can I use "regular" monofilament for the taper or even the tippet for that matter…I mean, isn’t it all essentially the same stuff? Also, I stumbled across a "Hobbs Creek Combo" in the Bass Pro catalog… it’s a 8-1/2 ft 7 wt w/ a rod bag, wf-7-f line, 100 yd backing and a tapered leader thrown in…all for the unbelievably low price of $94.95…that’s right, only 94.95…so call now…uh, sorry…sales pitc mode…does anyone have any experience with this combo?  or any other combos in this "super-cheapy" range?  There’s also a graphite rod combo for $179.94 that might be a better "investment"…anyhow, if you have the catalog, look on page 50 and 51 and let me know if any of these are worth looking at… Fish on!, JC

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