Question:
I’m going to be in Portland for a couple of days but will probably only be able to fish one full day. Can anybody recommend a good Steelhead river and hopefully a guide within a 2-3 hour drive of Portland Oregon. Either Oregon or Washington destinations are fine althought I was, for whatever reason, leaning towards Washington rivers. TIA, Randy
Response:
I’m going to be in Portland for a couple of days but will probably only be able to fish one full day.
go to www.ifish.net and read the latest reports. There are a number of guides listed there and all have good reputations. I can personally speak to the fact that Dave Johnson is one of the finest people, as well as being a guide, that you will ever have the pleasure of fishing with. Cos
Response:
Give Kaufmann’s a try… www.kman.com Clark
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going to be in Portland for a couple of days but will probably only be able to fish one full day. Can anybody recommend a good Steelhead river and hopefully a guide within a 2-3 hour drive of Portland Oregon. Either Oregon or Washington destinations are fine althought I was, for whatever reason, leaning towards Washington rivers. TIA, Randy
Response:
I’d go to the lower Deschutes or The Klickitat. I knew people who were catching fish in the Lewis river last week but access to it is not easy. The Wilson is a short drive but "fair" at the moment. It could change any time with rain. There’s supposed to be fish (samon and steelhead )in Eagle Creek just east of Portland, bring your own rock to stand on. When you get to town call Kauffmans, Rivercity flyshop or Fishermans Marine Supply.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going to be in Portland for a couple of days but will probably only be able to fish one full day. Can anybody recommend a good Steelhead river and hopefully a guide within a 2-3 hour drive of Portland Oregon. Either Oregon or Washington destinations are fine althought I was, for whatever reason, leaning towards Washington rivers. TIA, Randy
Response:
If you plan to fish the Deschuttes, Sandy, Salmon or Clackamas you could contact either Kaufmann’s Streamborn in Tigard or The FlyFishing Shop in Welches. guy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m going to be in Portland for a couple of days but will probably only be able to fish one full day. Can anybody recommend a good Steelhead river and hopefully a guide within a 2-3 hour drive of Portland Oregon. Either Oregon or Washington destinations are fine althought I was, for whatever reason, leaning towards Washington rivers. TIA, Randy
Response:
I took a river class from Mark Bachman and it was a great experience. He has to be one of the most patient guides to teach spey casting. Good thing I was not chewing gum at the same time. I recommend any guide affiliated with the Welches shop.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you plan to fish the Deschuttes, Sandy, Salmon or Clackamas you could contact either Kaufmann’s Streamborn in Tigard or The FlyFishing Shop in Welches. guy I’m going to be in Portland for a couple of days but will probably only be able to fish one full day. Can anybody recommend a good Steelhead river and hopefully a guide within a 2-3 hour drive of Portland Oregon. Either Oregon or Washington destinations are fine althought I was, for whatever reason, leaning towards Washington rivers. TIA, Randy
Response:
I also had a great trip from the shop with Brian Silvey in July. Caught one steelhead and many trout.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I took a river class from Mark Bachman and it was a great experience. He has to be one of the most patient guides to teach spey casting. Good thing I was not chewing gum at the same time. I recommend any guide affiliated with the Welches shop. If you plan to fish the Deschuttes, Sandy, Salmon or Clackamas you could contact either Kaufmann’s Streamborn in Tigard or The FlyFishing Shop in Welches. guy I’m going to be in Portland for a couple of days but will probably only be able to fish one full day. Can anybody recommend a good Steelhead river and hopefully a guide within a 2-3 hour drive of Portland Oregon. Either Oregon or Washington destinations are fine althought I was, for whatever reason, leaning towards Washington rivers. TIA, Randy
Response:
Question:
Forgive me if this has been covered before, but…. what’s the shelf life of middle and premium grade fly lines (e.g., Cortland 333, Scientific Anglers Ultra 3)? Do any of the chemical treatments in or on the line deteriorate from exposure to air, since the boxes they come in aren’t air tight? I’m asking (obviously) because an area dealer has very good prices on old stock of Ultra 3 (original packaging — different from what it’s currently packaged in) and some other lines. Thanks very much for any insight. G. Weaver
Response:
Forgive me if this has been covered before, but…. what’s the shelf life of middle and premium grade fly lines (e.g., Cortland 333, Scientific Anglers Ultra 3)? Do any of the chemical treatments in or on the line deteriorate from exposure to air, since the boxes they come in aren’t air tight? I’m asking (obviously) because an area dealer has very good prices on old stock of Ultra 3 (original packaging — different from what it’s currently packaged in) and some other lines. Thanks very much for any insight. G. Weaver
This is an interesting question – may have missed it, but don’t recall that it’s been posed before. No scientific or experience basis to make this statement, but I would say that if the line is stored out of the sun and away from excessive heat or cold, it ought to be in pretty good shape even after a number of years in storage. Mark Faulkner
Response:
Forgive me if this has been covered before, but…. what’s the shelf life of middle and premium grade fly lines (e.g., Cortland 333, Scientific Anglers Ultra 3)?
I don’t know about "premium grade," but a greart many years ago, when I was a a grad student (that was so long ago I’m now retired), I bought an HDH floating line from Herter’s for about three bucks. I used it for twenty or twenty five years, and it was still floating. As an off-topic but perhaps relevant aside: I had the good fortune to do some fishing and hunting with Ed Zern back in the 1960s. In his other life he was Creative Director of Geyer, Morey, Madden and Ballard, a big-time New York ad agency. I asked him about those strange greenish plastic collars on his two Labs. He said "Oh, those are some experimental flea collars one of our clients gave me to try out. They’ve been keeping fleas off my Labs for at least two years. I’m sure they have someone working on that problem." Sure enough. When flea collars appeared on the market a bit later, they were good for a couple of months. Might the same be true for fly lines? vince norris Do any of the chemical treatments in or on – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -the line deteriorate from exposure to air, since the boxes they come in aren’t air tight? I’m asking (obviously) because an area dealer has very good prices on old stock of Ultra 3 (original packaging — different from what it’s currently packaged in) and some other lines. Thanks very much for any insight. G. Weaver
Response:
UV light and heat are the killers if I understand things correctly. The lines also loose their slick finish over time because there is friction from the guides. My guess is that the lines should be fine as long as they haven’t been sitting next to a heater or left in the sun for a long time. << Do any of the chemical treatments in or on the line deteriorate from exposure to air, since the boxes they come in aren’t air tight? I’m asking (obviously) because an area dealer has very good prices on old stock of Ultra 3 (original packaging — different from what it’s currently packaged in) and some other lines. Thanks very much for any insight. G. Weaver
<< I bought an HDH floating line from Herter’s for about three bucks. I used it for twenty or twenty five years, and it was still floating. I guess I am brutal on my fly lines. I can get a sinking line to last for a lot of years but I kill my dry lines within about two years or less. That is based on fishing 60+ days per year but I still tear through them fast. Mike
Response:
I have a fair collection of lines (more than I ever have mounted on reels). My solution has been to always put them away clean – coiled and tied with pipe cleaners – and in ziplock bags with all the air sucked out. Figure that this will minimize effects of atmospheric polutants such as ozone. Keep them in dark color plastic tub (no light), and in a cool place. Seems to have worked although I don’t have a control on this experement. I keep even new lines in ziplock bags – cheap and figure it can’t hurt. air, since the boxes they come in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -aren’t air tight? I’m asking (obviously) because an area dealer has very good prices on old stock of Ultra 3 (original packaging — different from what it’s currently packaged in) and some other lines. Thanks very much for any insight. G. Weaver
Response:
Hi Vince, I have seen them 20 years old and still OK. Probably not used much? I have also seen some ‘Commando Anglers’ wear out a line in a season. — Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop http://www.kiene.com <snip I don’t know about "premium grade," but a greart many years ago, when – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I was a a grad student (that was so long ago I’m now retired), I bought an HDH floating line from Herter’s for about three bucks. I used it for twenty or twenty five years, and it was still floating. vince norris Do any of the chemical treatments in or on the line deteriorate from exposure to air, since the boxes they come in aren’t air tight? I’m asking (obviously) because an area dealer has very good prices on old stock of Ultra 3 (original packaging — different from what it’s currently packaged in) and some other lines. Thanks very much for any insight. G. Weaver
Response:
Keep them clean and conditioned, and even the $10 specials from walmart will last a long time. eventually they will phyisically wear out, but that takes a lot of fishing. by then, you’ll feel like you’ve *earned* a new line. — Rusty Hook Laramie, Wyo Before you buy.
Response:
Question:
And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited. If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users. Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS! Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq.
I hear where your coming from on this Richard. And many times I feel the same way. But, quite a few times I have rented rafts, shredders and duckies and brought people down the L.Yough. I ahve brough some kids down that could not afford to go if I had not paid for the raft and done it myself. So I do like the opportunity to be able to rent this equipment. In the otherhand I have a relatively large amount of experience on WW and this river. I don’t know what the solution is. Maybe an amatuer guide license that is good for a five year period? What do RPB’ers say? Dan
Response:
Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim? How many play holes are there on the lower yough? The answer seems obvious to me. Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.
How many? Lots. How many that are anything like swimmers? One. I have never perceived it to be much of a problem. I guess someone could get hurt, but I bet it is fairly rare. I don’t think the risk of death or serious injury are significant there. Pete
Response:
Was that meant to be a provocation or just an accidentally stupid comment?
Response:
Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim? How many play holes are there on the lower yough? The answer seems obvious to me. Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.
I find this answer unsatisfying. It would seem to indicate that the swimmers have more of a claim to the spot than paddlers; I don’t think either should be given a preference, and that they should share the spot. However, it’s difficult to share it *safely* when swimmers arrive en masse, sans helmets, with no warning. (Just as it would be difficult to share it safely *if* paddlers didn’t wait their turn, etc.) Given that most boaters are accustomed to waiting in line there anyway, I think just letting them know that swimmers are coming would alleviate much of the potential problem. But that’s easier said than done. (For those who don’t know the Lower Yough: Swimmer’s is *the* preferred spot for a number of reasons: it’s roughly halfway through the trip and makes a good spot to play as well as to have lunch and watch others; it’s a riverwide shallow-entry hole which is easy to get into and not too hard to get out of; and probably most importantly, it’s followed by some waves and a pool but not the usual piles of boulders, making recovery of boaters, boats, and equipment easy. For a lot of paddlers, it’s the first hole of any size that they find themselves in, with friends waiting below to pick them up if they goof, and others encouraging them from the bank. It is the only hole with all of these features (that I’m aware of) on the Lower Yough.) —Rsk Rich Kulawiec
Response:
When a kayaker is playing in Swimmers, it is nearly impossible to see a human head and life jacket bob by (bob by out of control) The question is then : Is it safe for a person to intentionally jump in the water in front of a spinning kayak and continue downstream toward that kayak, virtually invisible and out of control? Of course that is not safe. Therefore, this should not be encouraged by rafting companies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole. In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it. I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation. Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim? How many play holes are there on the lower yough? The answer seems obvious to me. Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy. What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river? Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it. Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well? John Fereira
Response:
Paul – Your situation is very different than the Lower Yough. I have no problem with *guided* raft trips; it’s the unguided ones, that OC1 says to leave the rafts hanging. Help the people – leave the rafts. Unfortunately, it’s cheaper to rent an unguided raft for the customer, and probably more profitable for the rafting company than the guided trips. I like the idea of making these unguided rentals more costly for both sides. – Mothra (aka Kathy Streletzky) "No man can enter the same river twice,for the second time, it is not the same river he is not the same man. – Anonymous" Acutally by Heracleitus of Ephesus (thanks, Retendokid) via a Dinty Moore short story
Response:
WHAT ANOTHER BUREAUCRATIC LICENSE? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited. If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users. Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS! Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq. I hear where your coming from on this Richard. And many times I feel the same way. But, quite a few times I have rented rafts, shredders and duckies and brought people down the L.Yough. I ahve brough some kids down that could not afford to go if I had not paid for the raft and done it myself. So I do like the opportunity to be able to rent this equipment. In the otherhand I have a relatively large amount of experience on WW and this river. I don’t know what the solution is. Maybe an amatuer guide license that is good for a five year period? What do RPB’ers say? Dan
Response:
Another brilliant suggestion by OC1: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS! Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them
I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say brilliant. The situation up here is different, in that the most rafts I ever been passed by in one day is about six, and ALL the commercial companies put guides in their rafts. (Actually there are other companies that will rent rafts, but they’re not right at the river, since there isn’t much market for them. They have to be in a city, and cater to people going to different rivers.) Notwithstanding that, if I ran across a pinned raft, I’d probably give them a hand, even if just to practise my own rescue skills. Now, if I were running into pinned rafts every day, I’d probably run out of the need for practice, and follow OC1’s advice. Having said that, I don’t think it would make any difference on a river like the Yough. If the raft companies had to go out and rescue their rafts, they’d just start charging a rescue deposit. You pay an extra $100 when you rent your raft, and if you return it all in one piece, you get the money back. If the company has to send someone to retrieve it, you don’t. Would such a deposit have an effect on people’s safety? Would they try harder to avoid trouble (I doubt it), or would they risk themselves unnecessarily in the event they do get their raft pinned (possible)? -Paul
Response:
Another brilliant suggestion by OC1: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS! Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to
come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them – Mothra (aka Kathy Streletzky) "No man can enter the same river twice,for the second time, it is not the same river he is not the same man. – Anonymous" Acutally by Heracleitus of Ephesus (thanks, Retendokid) via a Dinty Moore short story
Response:
Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim? How many play holes are there on the lower yough? The answer seems obvious to me. Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it.
That’s a lot like saying boaters should give up Beat Me Daddy (Jaws) on the Nolichucky, Hellhole on the Ocoee, of Diagonal Ledges on the Lower Gauley. Swimmers is not merely "the best" playspot on the Lower Yough, it stands head, shoulders, torso, and hips above any other. Swimmers, incidently, is not "training" or "swimming practice", because the trip is already half over, and the #1 raft-flipping rapid is the one that leads into Swimmers (Swimmers was named by the raft companies, BTW, but I have often wondered if it wasn’t named for the unintendo swimmers that flip at Dimple?) What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river? Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it. Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well?
The post you reply to, John, is not proposing banning swimmers from the site. The poster, Joe Hatcher, is a raft guide for Pete’s sake, and he is asking for suggestions for a safe solution to the problem he perceives, such that everyone can continue to enjoy that spot without any injuries. Joe, I’d say (and I’ve said everytime I see rafters flying out of their boats and flushing under Dimple Rock) that the solution is a helmet law. I don’t know if the raft companies charge extra rental fees for helmets, but I believe they do for wetsuits. ALL that stuff ought to be provided — reguired, except for wetsuits in July and August — to every customer. And rental of self-guided rafts ought to be prohibited. If an experienced private rafter wants to bring his own boat, fine, but these yahoos who think they know what they’re doing, then get pinned at River’s End and take up private boaters’ time (none of the raft trips — even from the company whose name is on the pinned raft — stop to help) and require ropes across the channel, endangering other users. Message to private boaters: STOP RESCUING THESE RAFTS! Rescue the people, ferry them to river left and show them the bicycle trail; they’ll get home safely, and if the dam’ raft companies have to pay their own employees to come out and unpin the suckers, they’ll stop renting them pdq. — Richard Hopley, concise and to the point, as always. OC-1; Rockville, Maryland, USA, BBM; (301) 330-8265 Monocacy Canoe Club, Blue Ridge Voyageurs, Canoe Cruisers’ Ass’n, Greater Baltimore CC, Coastal Canoeists, Rhode Island Canoe/Kayak Ass’n, Carolina CC, Tennessee Scenic Rivers Ass’n, ACA, and AWA Note 1: To send me eMail, remove ".NoSpam" from my address Note 2: Sometimes I just forget to type that smiley-face emoticon. Note 3: Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock’n'Roll.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (For those who don’t know the Lower Yough: Swimmer’s is *the* preferred spot for a number of reasons: it’s roughly halfway through the trip and makes a good spot to play as well as to have lunch and watch others; it’s a riverwide shallow-entry hole which is easy to get into and not too hard to get out of; and probably most importantly, it’s followed by some waves and a pool but not the usual piles of boulders, making recovery of boaters, boats, and equipment easy. For a lot of paddlers, it’s the first hole of any size that they find themselves in, with friends waiting below to pick them up if they goof, and others encouraging them from the bank. It is the only hole with all of these features (that I’m aware of) on the Lower Yough.) —Rsk Rich Kulawiec
Rich is right! This is a hole that is probably one of the best, anyplace, to teach boaters how to sit up and control thier boats in a side surf. I can body surf into the hole and stand up in the foam pile. I can stand there and have less experienced boaters paddle into the hole, grab hold of them and stabilize them. I can then instruct them on how to sit up properly and how to place thier paddle and how to work to the river right seam and use it to spin and switch paddle size. If they go over, I can many times right them quickly and stabilize them and give them a chance to breath and feel relaxed. They then can choose to try it again or go back to the eddy. I stand in there and help people in Duckies get 360’s when it is there first time in a river. My son at 13, could go in without a paddle and be anyplace he wanted in the hole, and spin whenever he wanted. Now I don’t let him get in without me there to make it more challenging for him other wise he may become a hole hog. Can’t allow that. Just as long as boaters know swimmer are coming and swimmers are wearing helmets, there are no problems with swimmers and boaters in this hole. Plenty enough room and time for both. Dan
Response:
Problem First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough.
With all of the extremely stupid regulations that the Peoples Republic of Pennsylvania has for that park (no beer, launch times, water level restrictions), you’d think that helmets would be mandatory.
Response:
I am surprised the raft companies would do this in the first place. Swimming in a river, with current, is always hazardous. Foot entrapments, hidden strainers and the like are always a possibility. Swimming through a hole also has it’s hazards, surfing kayaks just being one of them. I am also sure that the insurance companies that insure the raft companies would not be too pleased with the raft companies ‘advising’ customers to swim.
I spend very little time on the Lower Yough, so can’t speak to this particular site, but we have swim spots on the New, Cheat, Upper and Lower Gauley. Our insurance companies are very aware of the practice and help to provide the guidelines we use when swimming our guests. As has been discussed in another thread, a controlled and instructed swim in a relatively safe rapid can be a real asset for someone who later finds themselves swimming unexpectedly. These rapids have all been swum by thousands of raft guests over the years, so any hazards would have presented themselves by now. Remember that out your way you’re dealing with much colder water, which can be an important factor. Here it makes sense. Dave Bassage
Response:
To: Roger Lynn Safety Chair Colorado Whitewater Association Being on the "Safety Chair" of a WW Association, I’m supprised you haven’t heard of or can’t see the benafits of a comercial "guest", or anyone else, swimming a rapid as part of their safety training to prepare for a raft trip. Of coarse it should be in a controled situation (no kayaks surfing the hole) with prudent safety precautions and with the guests in the proper atire. I’d suggest; vest, helmet, footwear and any other cloathing that was prudent. I Saw Dave Bassage noted that the water may be colder in Colorado than out East but, I would assume and recomend that guests on a raft trip or anyone boating the river for that matter, should be dressed for a swim anyway. I’m not trying to be rude or "in your face" but, what is the Colorado whitewater Association anyway? It has to do with boating… right? Your post supprises me as I thought this was a common practice. Jake " OVER FORTY…… IT’S ALL DOWN RIVER FROM HERE "
Response:
well, now… mebbe a good first step would be to put HELMETS and GUIDES with some of them there raftin’ folk… DUH!!! sheesh! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole. In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it. I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation. Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole. In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it. I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation. Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done.
Isn’t swimmers rapid the only place on the lower yough where people intentially go in for a swim? How many play holes are there on the lower yough? The answer seems obvious to me. Let the people that want to swim enjoy the river too and go play in a whole that doesn’t have people swimming through it. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.
What kind of policy can the AWA enforce for someone that wants to swim in the river? Suppose that hole was the best flyfishing spot on the river and flyfishers had to wade to get to it. Would you propose a "policy" to keep flyfishers from enjoying the river as well? John Fereira
Response:
Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole. In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it. I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation. Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.
Response:
Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed.
In reference to our previous post. We have rude kayakers that screw up to. All groups have problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole. In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it. I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation. Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done.
Cooperation. A month or so ago I was at Surfers Rapid on Section 4 of the Chattooga (sc and GA USA) I was with about 5 other hard boats and we where trying to cartwheel the hole. A group of rafts came down and they beached. The customers all got out and stood on the rock. We played for a minute then I paddled up to the guide. He asked if we could get in the eddy for a minute to let some of his customers come down. He sent between 8 and 10 and then we all took a trip in the hole. He sent the next batch and we got in the hole again. We took turns and had no problems whatsoever. If we all realize that we have no more rights to be there than anyone else then thing get along fine. It is when one group decides they have special rights that problems arise. Scott Bristow – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.
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First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough.
I obviously don’t know the river section but I’m surprised at this. Surely, even on easy water this should be compulsory. No? Jez — "What happened while I was talking to the fish?"
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1) Put helmets on all river users. This is a bit of a no-brainer. Big time liability on the part of any rafting company or guide who has clients swim in rapids or into traffic without helmets. 2) Assign a traffic cop/raft guide with a whistle to stand on shore at the play spot and coordinate the use equitable use of the hole. It works well on the Ottawa. Again, big time liability for any rafting company or guide who has clients swim into traffic without taking reasonable actions to control the traffic. Richard Culpeper – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole. In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it. I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation. Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.
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On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole. In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies
Ten deep is crowded? Man, I’ve been on the Ocoee too much….. Fester
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I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation. Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.
I am surprised the raft companies would do this in the first place. Swimming in a river, with current, is always hazardous. Foot entrapments, hidden strainers and the like are always a possibility. Swimming through a hole also has it’s hazards, surfing kayaks just being one of them. I am also sure that the insurance companies that insure the raft companies would not be too pleased with the raft companies ‘advising’ customers to swim. Just my two cents. Roger Lynn Safety Chair Colorado White Water Association http://www.earthnet.net/~cwwa
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Seems to me it would be tough living with it if I were the Raft guide who let or suggested his or her customers to swim the rapid when there were possible hazzards (kayaks playing in hole) there. My suggestion would be if there were kayaks there, fin someplace else. Not that it’s an ideal situation but, it’s kind of a "right of weight" thing. Swimmers should avoid contact with kayakers (by not swimming there when kayaks are there, and as their GUIDE, you shouldn’t let them) like kayakers avoid your raft when you come down the rapid. You don’t wait in the eddy above the rapid till the hole is clear before going down in a raft do you? I think you figure they’ll get out of my way I have the "right of weight". Jake " OVER FORTY…… IT’S ALL DOWN RIVER FROM HERE "
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First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. I obviously don’t know the river section but I’m surprised at this. Surely, even on easy water this should be compulsory. No?
Well, you and I might agree that it should be so, but it’s not. Two of the more popular rivers for whitewater rafting in the eastern USA are here in Pennsylvania: the Lehigh and the (Lower) Youghiogheny. At normal flow levels, the Lehigh is II+, the Yough is III+; both are drop-and-pool rivers and both have an awful lot of boulders in them. (At high water, the Lehigh is easy III, with lots and lots of waves; the Yough starts taking on some IV characteristics and the pools, especially in the first mile, start to disappear.) On the Lehigh, nearly all raft trips that I’ve seen have been accompanied by guides: sometimes in the rafts, sometimes in duckies, often in kayaks. On the Yough, many of the raft trips that I’ve seen have been UNguided. Rafters are given a safety talk, PFD’s and paddles and rafts, and a waterproof "map" of the rapids and sent downstream. I find this astonishing, given that there are a few places on the Yough that are known to cause safety problems for the untrained and even some of the trained (the undercut at Dimple; the foot entrapment spot in Cucumber). In neither case are they given helmets — I sat below Pipeline on the Lehigh at 2000 CFS a month ago and watched a guide working on a rafter’s head; her hair was a bloody mess, but she seemed to be relatively okay. Whether the wound came during a swim or from a paddle, or something else, I don’t know — but I think a helmet would have probably prevented it. Contrast this with West Virginia, just to the south, where (unless I’ve had the statute misquoted to me) rafters are required by state law to wear helmets anytime they’re in III or above. No compliance incurs a fine for the rafter, the guide, and the company. I often wnoder what goes through the mind of rafters as they watch us go by. Do they notice that we look like we know what we’re doing and that *we’re wearing helmets*? Do they then ask their outfitters the obvious question? On the issue of Swimmers on the Lower Yough, I’ve been concerned about accidentally hitting a swimmer as well, especially because I paddle a slalom boat whose ends are quite pointed and could really hurt somebody. It would probably help matters a lot if the raft guides (when there *are* guides) would send one of their number down to the hole and coordinate traffic with a counterpart up at the jump rock so that everybody can take their turn. I don’t mind sharing or waiting for my turn; I do mind being put in a situation where I suddenly find that I may be endangering someone even though that’s the last thing I’d ever want to do. —Rsk Rich Kulawiec
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I play at Swimmer Hole on the Lower Yough quite frequently with my children. I have had my daughter at 6 years old swim through it with me. We all get into it and body surf it. I do not let my children swim through the rapid without a helmet. I have been body surfing the hole and had a kayak come in with me. I was more in the foam and he was about to knock me out of the wave so I grabbed the back of his boat and "seal" slid over him and we both kept on surfing. no prolbem because we were both wearing protection. Helmets. I am always amazed how raft companies can send people down without helmets. Last time I was there (about 4wks ago) I saw some company guide butterfly bandaging some womans head at the bottom of Double Hydraulic Rapid. She would not have needed that care if she had a helmet. She would also look nicer without the Frankenstien stitches on her forehead. It irritates me that the Park Service will not let me run Ohiopyle Falls (an easy drop) but will allow hordes of unskilled, inexperienced people treat the Yough like a Disney World Ride ride and not wear the proper safety equipment. So many times I have pulled families out of messes with my low volume boat, or advised families to get out and scout rapids. One family with a father, mother, 14 yr son and 12 yr daughter were all over the river. The daughter and mother were scared silly. I suggested that they get out and look over Dimple and maybe let the mother and daughter walk. The father was quite irritated with me. I think I accidentaly stepped on his realm of power control and machismo. The mother and daughter complained until they let them out and the father and son proceeded to flip the raft on dimple. I want the ability to rent rafts privately at the L. Yough so I can take people down safely and have a good time. But I am worried that too many people are allowed, and encouraged to get themselves into messes that could result in me loosing the privledge to privately rent a raft. Half the time it seems like the guided trips (one or two guide rafts, maybe a safety boater kayak with many unguided rafts) that have the most injuries. It is a great river for improving skills for intermediate paddlers and a great place to give people a good whitewater experience. but you need to wear helmets. Dan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since all this discussion is going on about raft guides and kayakers, I thought I would bring up a similar topic. As a raft guide and as a kayaker I see a problem about to happen and I dont think the finger needs to be pointed as to whose fault it is but instead how can it be fixed. Problem On the Lower Yough(PA) there is a rapid called Swimmers Rapid. It has a great surf hole. In the summer this place will get so crowded with kayakers that the line will be 10 deep. This is also a great spot for raft companies to unload their guests and allow them to walk back up and swim through the rapid. First off, the customers do not wear helmets on the Lower Yough. Keep in mind kayakers are going in and out of this hole playing and surfing while people are swimming through it. I think it is only a matter of time before some kayaker accidentilly hits a swimmer in the head with his kayak and they go unconscious and drown before they can get them out of the water. I know I dont want to be that kayaker it would be tough living with that the rest of my life. I would like to hear some suggestions as to what could possible be done to prevent this situation. Remember it is not who is at fault the raft companies or the kayakers but instead what can be done. Personally, I think the AWA needs to get involved with the companies and maybe agree on some kind of policy.
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Question:
: When your guides ice-up and so you try to pee pee and that’s iced up too. : Then it’s too cold to fly fish. I submit it is too cold to fly fish, when the wings on those buggers start to ice up. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
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: When your guides ice-up and so you try to pee pee and that’s iced up too. : Then it’s too cold to fly fish. I submit it is too cold to fly fish, when the wings on those buggers start to ice up. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
You wouldn’t be much good for steedheading in the Northeast then. There are several "tricks of the trade," to try to eliminate ice.
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must do wonders for the guides and the rod…
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That stuff is mostly isopropanol, toxic to fish, not good to be spilling in a stream. In fact, probably illegal in some states with stringent regulations (like California.) If you must use stuff like that onstream, be sure to filter it through a loaf of bread first. — Ken Clark Ft. Lupton, CO
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Try using windshield de-icer to keep your guides and flies free of ice.
Research reveals that 9 out of 10 guides prefer BOURBON to keep lubricated.
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Ghillies prefer Scotch, though.
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When the thought of tying flies near a fireplace sounds better’n flying ties in an ice storm.
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Try using windshield de-icer to keep your guides and flies free of ice. Research reveals that 9 out of 10 guides prefer BOURBON to keep lubricated.
IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS THE TEMPERATURE GETS DOWN TO -20/30 C IN JANUARY AND FEBRUARY AND MOST FLY FISHERMEN COULDN’T BE BOTHERED TO CHISEL OUT A 40′X 1′ TRENCH THROUGH THE ICE IN ORDER TO LAY OUT A FLY NICELY.
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When your guides ice-up and so you try to pee pee and that’s iced up too. Then it’s too cold to fly fish.
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depends on how pissed off the old lady is…
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Try using windshield de-icer to keep your guides and flies free of ice. Research reveals that 9 out of 10 guides prefer BOURBON to keep lubricated. IN MY NECK OF THE WOODS THE TEMPERATURE GETS DOWN TO -20/30 C IN JANUARY AND FEBRUARY AND MOST FLY FISHERMEN COULDN’T BE BOTHERED TO CHISEL OUT A 40′X 1′ TRENCH THROUGH THE ICE IN ORDER TO LAY OUT A FLY NICELY.
Haw! you think that’s bad,come down here to Texas for a week. 80 degree lows will make you shiver from head to toe!(well,maybe a little colder) Aaron Zee
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Try using windshield de-icer to keep your guides and flies free of ice.
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