But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7. :-)
I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.
Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected.
I was hoping you’d pipe in here. It was my confusion in a holding pattern up there with you that got me searching for some way to call time out–or the closest thing I can get to that. That’s probably why you were able to address the question so poignantly despite me not knowing how to ask it. Anyway, thanks. You da man. — Jim
7ECA…. Yours is cooler though (Champ, right?) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7. :-) I fly a 7AC, but not in IMC.
Makes sense to me – but best laid plans are sometimes difficult to follow in the soup. Flying the missed assumes situational awareness.Yes, I could have done my best guess as per the DG – but that would have meant a lot more figuring things out. Seemed prudent to talk to ATC and get back on track. Having said that, the missed was close to coming into play, so your scenario would have been the next step.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful. — True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.
You probably won’t need to ask. If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller.
I can attest to that. When I had my DG failure in IMC, the first hint I had that anything was wrong was a "say heading?" query from NY Approach. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA
Lost? On instruments? Never happened to me. But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost.
Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia. Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down. Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA
Good point, and a good reminder. -Ryan Lost? On instruments? Never happened to me. But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia. Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down. Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA
– Ryan Ferguson Pitts S-2C N312PS Twin Comanche 8259Y My flying pictures are at: http://www.fergworld.com
Lost? On instruments? Never happened to me. But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. Tell that to the crew that flew a 757 into the mountains near Cali, Columbia. Tell that to the crew of the flight that wandered into Soviet airspace by accident and got shot down. Tell that to the crew that flew a perfectly good 747 into the ground in Guam. Never think it can’t happen to you.
But, Roy, none of the planes I fly starts with a 7. :-) Matt
On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller. Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner.
Given a choice between a possible CFIT and a possible mid-air, I’ll risk the mid-air any day. Not only are the mountains bigger targets than the airliners, they also don’t have TCAS. — Roy Smith, CFI-ASE-IA
<snip of exactly the type of stuff I was looking for but wasn’t sure exactly how to ask–You, too, Ron Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you
take, you will die. Snicker. Filed in mental "quotable quotes" folder. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
As the other posters have pointed out, the ‘where’, ‘when’, and ‘how’ of lost is a big factor. Assuming you have at least a NAV/AID available this simply shouldn’t happen at least in the big picture. If you don’t have it sorted out soon (especially if you are on ‘own nav’) you better ask on the radio! Here’s something I used to do to sharpen my ‘where the hell am I’ skills… I would call up a regional map on my IFR sim (IFT Pro was great for this). Close my eyes and click the mouse to position my A/C on some unforseen random location and then start up the sim, plane in the air, IMC. Since I new generally where I was (within a 100 miles) I’d start dialing up the VOR’s trying to fix my position. Of course this is child’s play with a VOR/DME but get’s more challenging if you resign yourself to just the ADF or just the DME. One of my instructors was so good about teaching VOR/CDI tricks (will this heading intercept the 245 radial? How close to the station are you?) that getting lost with a working NAV/AID just doesn’t seem likely to me anymore.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate. Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Most of these issues rely on the principle that if you are headed accurately from a know position, then suddenly switching to a much less accurate form of navigation will result in a badly off position only given a lot of time. Ie., you know your heading, should have a good idea when your next fix eta is, you aren’t going to be far off even if murphy suddenly sticks you back into a dark cockpit with only a flashlight aimed at the compass and your watch. No matter what the situation, radio working or not, is to perform what you were cleared to do. Thats what you last knew, thats what they expect. Circling, doing something odd, whatever, its just going to make the situation worse, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate. Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.
I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate. Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Lost? On instruments? Never happened to me. But, you twirl the knobs on the VORs and get unlost. The needles are pretty hard to misinterpret. If you lose electrical you get on your handheld and start talking to ATC. Ryan http://www.fergworld.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate. Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
If I would unsure I would just ask. It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate. Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Whoops, should be you SHOW me 10 miles….
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I would unsure I would just ask. It’s that ten second position check. "Center, Cessna 1234, verify that you who me 10 miles from Podunk VOR on the 120 radial." jerry Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate. Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over?
ATC would probably not appreciate an unannounced circle and ascent. And, obviously, pulling over isn’t an option. I’m guessing this is a troll question, but I’ll give it a serious answer anyway. I’ve never had this happen, but it if did, I’d immediately confess to ATC that I’d lost situational awareness and ask them where I was! Matt
What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors?
You probably won’t need to ask. If you’re operating in a radar environment, your first indication that there’s a significant difference between where you’re heading and where you should be heading will likely be a query from the controller. Immediately circle and ascend?
I suppose it depends where you are. If you’re in Alaska and in uncontrolled airspace climbing probably won’t make your situation any worse. In controlled airspace over Iowa it’s a different story. Call "time out" and pull over?
Are you flying a helicopter? Beware of the traffic behind you.
On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller. Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain.
The probably with this is then you might eat an airliner. Bottom line is life is not good if you loss situational awareness. The penalty for not paying attention while flying in IMC can be death. Serious stuff.
Again, I am relatively new to IFR, but I am confused why this would be a problem. Even if all your radios and navs spin around and spit pea soup, you have a heading, and even having the DG go out leaves you with compass heading. If things go seriously wrong, I would hopefully remember the heading, stop the drop if on approach, and go missed if required. It seems to me the neat thing about a missed is you can do that with a heading only if required. I was never lost, but I was once confused in that my two CDI’s gave different info on the same approach. I called for ATC, explained the situation, got vectors and finally figured out which CDI was messed up. (Turned out to be interference between avionics equipment) I have to admit it was disconcerting to be IMC and get two completely different indications from the CDIs on an ILS, but ATC was very helpful.
– True knowledge is what you learn after you know everything.
Well, there are always those time/distance exercises you had to learn: go wandering off the airway while you’re lost so you can figure out how far it is to the next checkpoint. Personally, if I had a radio aid to use for that I would just fly to the radio aid and not give a dead rat how far away it is. Basically, lost in IMC is done the same way as lost in VMC: figure out your last know position, check your heading and time from there to approximate your current position, check it against radio aids. Maintain last assigned altitude and heading. Call for radar vectors. Climbing in circles is likely to induce vestibular problems, so don’t do that. If you’ve lost your electrics, backup radios and handheld GPS can be of some help. Again, check your last known position, use your heading and time to approximate where you are now. Check that against MEAs/MORAs. Climb in a straight line, if necessary, and follow IFR lost comm procedures. If you really haven’t got a clue and no help is available, consider other options. If you know you are near a coastline, for example, consider flying out over the ocean and gingerly descending until you can see the water, turn around and fly back to the coast. Use a deliberate offset so that you know you are coming in south, for example, of a known point on the coastline, then follow the coastline up to that point. If you are in a single engine plane in mountainous terrain, IMC at night, lost, and low on fuel, you have what is called a non-critical emergency. Critical emergency: An emergency such that if prompt action is not taken, you will die. Non-Critical emergency: An emergency such that no matter what action you take, you will die.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate. Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up!
Consider two kinds of lost. One is being unable to accurately locate your position due to complete electrical failure or some such. For that kind of case, I carry a handheld GPS in my flight bag (with spare batteries), and I turn it on every week or so for 30 minutes or so to let it update its almanac. The unit is always kept where I can reach it and retrieve it without looking. I also carry a handheld radio. With this, I can find my lat/long quickly and can then dead reckon toward a letdown point, using the GPS occasionally to refine my navigation. I have practiced this. The other kind of lost is a temporary loss of positional awareness during a busy instrument approach or even a hold. Many responses to your question have been good and logical, but don’t consider the confusion and disorientation that can come with suddenly seeing indications on the instruments that don’t make sense or don’t agree with what you expected. This can lead to panic. In some terrain you just can’t keep flying while you try to figure it out or wait for ATC to call you and ask what the hell is going on, you need to do something fast. I have been developing the habit of defining my "lost" procedure before entering an approach. It consists of a heading and an altitude, and I jot it down on my kneeboard and draw a square around it. The heading is the final aproach course and the altitude is the MSA. If I get "lost", meaning I have lost positional awareness of exactly where I am relative to the procedure and am confused, my default procedure is to climb like hell and turn to the FAC. Then I can call ATC and ask for vectors for the missed if I’m still lost. Not a perfect solution nor a universal one, but it is something, and seems to me to be better than doing nothing and flying into a mountain. This kind of "lost" results from a breakdown or interruption of the mental processes required to execute a procedure while keeping the "picture" in your mind. If you suddenly "lose the picture", especially while in a maneuver, the resulting disorientation and confusion negates recovery procedures based on application of logical thought processes. If you can stabilize your situation, such as by just flying a heading, the ability to think logically can return quickly, and then you can puzzle out the problem, but you don’t always have time to do that. I have heard that this mental lapse of "losing the picture" happens to controllers also. I got "lost" in a hold once in IMC. I was flying a MAHP with GPS, there was a hefty wind, I got a little off track flying inbound to the holding fix, and somehow misjudged when to start my turn. When I rolled out of the turn, I couldn’t immediately make any sense of the indications and got confused. I was "lost" in the sense of not knowing where I was relative to the fix. Not good. In a hold, my default is to fly the outbound heading. I think Jim’s question, which is similar to one posted by Mike Horowitz a while back, is a good one. Especially for inexperienced instrument pilots, or insufficiently proficient ones, there will be times, however infrequent, when confusion sets in, and it is worthwhile to think through these things and try to come up with no-brain default actions that, while not perfect, are likely to be better than doing nothing. I’m sure some people are so cool and competent that they never get lost or never get confused or panicked when something goes wrong, and I envy them. I have been lost in IMC, in the second sense and on an approach, and it is about the scariest thing I could imagine. When that happened, I realized that I had to have some simple no-brain procedure to do something if I temporarily lost my thinking power due to confusion. Otherwise, I would do nothing for a while, perhaps too long. Stan Prevost
Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over?
I’ve never been lost in IMC, but if I were, it would depend where I was flying. If I was over Iowa at 5,000 I would tell the controller I was lost and get some help. On the other hand, if I was at 2,000 in the L.A. basin and lost and had any doubt about the terrain, I would climb like hell while asking for help from the controller. Better to bust a clearance than wind up flying into a mountain. BTW, how lost is "lost"? A mile off course? A hundred miles? You’re never totally lost, I mean, you know what state your in, right? :) So you’ll have some basic info about the terrain. If you get lost while having a total electrical failure you’re on your own, so you better not be lost. If you are, then use your head and think about the weather and terrain. Where is the VMC? Where is the low terrain? Around here, the lowest terrain is over the ocean. If I had to get down and had no nav or com capability and widespread low IMC that I couldn’t climb on top of, I’d fly out over the ocean and descend until I was below the clouds, then scud run my way back to the coast. Of course, with a handheld nav/com, a handheld GPS, extra batteries, etc. I doubt it would ever come to that. A lot of things would have to break at the same time that the weather was at its absolute worst and I’d have to get lost on top of it all. There are a lot of little failure modes that they don’t necessarily teach you about when you’re training for the instrument rating. But you learn enough to be able to use your head and make educated decisions when fate (or your own idiocy) throws you a curveball. 
–Ron
Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate. Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
So long as my navigation equipment is working, I won’t get lost in IMC. I worry about aircraft control, getting into a steep bank or something, but getting lost is not something that has ever come close to happening. IT is not impossible, if I was out of radio comm and lost my navigation both GPS and VOR (or out of range of VOR). But it’s not likely. Lots of other more likely things to worry about. So long as I am in radar contact and have radio contact, and have Gyros I am OK. Most important navigation equipment is a radio, IMHO. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stupid question #5,146 What do you folks do when you suddenly realize you aren’t where you thought you were in IMC? Do you simply ask for vectors? Immediately circle and ascend? Call "time out" and pull over? Yeah, I know, it’s a nebulous issue and the answer is to aviate, navigate and communicate. Vectors are sometimes (always?) an option, of course. But I’m fishing for some very general guidelines, perhaps some anecdotal stories, on what you did when you suddenly realized you were lost in IMC. What got you in that fix to begin with? C’mon, fess up! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
If you swing by that way again, look for some of the hot springs (green algae areas, some with rocks built up along the banks) parallel and down stream of the pool. I have not fished them personally but rafted by them this summer. The Guide pointed them out and said they were popular year round (especially winter) fishing spots. Scott any great skill-my love for fishing is not matched by my talent for it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Then I noticed my feet were wet and getting cold. Apparently, some idiot decided to wade in the Colorado River at about 7000 feet or higher, without waders. You believe the nerve of that moron?
Last week we stopped there on our way back from Grand Mesa NF. It’s amazing how few people there were for a Sunday afternoon with good weather, I sat and studied the water for a while, and then discarded all I knew and tied on a black Wooly Worm, and started working my way downstream. Not with any great skill-my love for fishing is not matched by my talent for it. Eventually, I found the trout. They either spooked from my presentation or exhibited some beautiful refusal rises. What the hell, getting a refusal from a 20" trout on the Colorado River is the same as actually catching a fish in some other places. Maybe even better. Besides, I was too lazy to tie on something else, and there weren’t any bugs in the air anyway. Then I noticed my feet were wet and getting cold. Apparently, some idiot decided to wade in the Colorado River at about 7000 feet or higher, without waders. You believe the nerve of that moron? Then I decided to try a new tack. Maybe I should be nymphing with this thing instead of fishing it on the surface. The trout down at the bottom aren’t as smart as the ones taking dries, right? (Probably wrong, actually.) And being too lazy to switch to a shorter leader…actually, the only change I made was a tiny little piece of twist-on. And maybe I got a few hits and was a little late setting up. I was a little distracted. Until one cast…snagged my fly in a tree maybe 20′ off the ground. I start trying to jerk it out, and lost the entire leader instead. Clinch knot good. Mike’s nail knot, apparently bad. Oops. And the flyline splashed into the water, as flylines are wont to do when they’re being waved through the air. And a fish tried to take the end of the line. Maybe I should have tried a yellow fly? — "Armchair warriors often fail, and we’ve been poisoned by these fairy tales" -Don Henley
There is plenty of ice out there. Here on the West Coast it occurs from now until spring. Usually below 15,000. The leagality issue is the source of endless debate. The big question is what constitutes "known icing conditions". The opinions lately have been swinging toward forcast icing as being "known icing".
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.
Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180". You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet. I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.
Either or both, I would guess. In Severe Weather Flying (which I strongly recommend) Dennis Newton suggests that the freezing band in stratiform cloud is rarely more than 3000 ft thick, and in convective cloud rarely more than 6000 ft thick. Above that level, the temperature is low enough so that the concentration of supercooled water droplets is low (they’re already ice). The Airmet may not be able to place that actual freezing band accurately, so it covers a deeper band. I wouldn’t want to bet my life on the freezing band being only 3000 ft thick: the Mooney I fly is about the worst icing-test-aircraft that I can imagine, and I’m certainly not tempted to try to climb through 3000 ft of freezing cloud to find out. But it’s a useful thing to have in your mind if you encounter icing. Julian Scarfe
I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms. Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind.
Some would say that’s overly conservative. They’re wrong. Actually, in a relatively high performance single like yours, you might consider poking your nose in to take a look, provided you have good options for what to do if your nose gets frostbit. A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though. If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it. And if you don’t have a high performance airplane, you have no business sticking your nose in even if you can get out quickly, because the ice will bog you down fast. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range.
As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe. It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise? They can, you know. I got caught that way once myself. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds. I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck. Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip.
Low vis does not make ice. Precip can. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window. … Aaron
No, you don’t. I came damn close myself a couple of times, and both times I thought I could make the flight VFR (once above the clouds, once below them). Michael
You’re welcome. I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed.
Excellent recount of your inadvertent adventure, man. And scary as hell. Thanks for takin the time. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing??
Something like that. See, here’s the scenario. MEA’s are 5000 ft. Tops are 4000, freezing level is 3000, and I can count on a climb rate of 1000+ fpm up through 7000. Under those circumstances, I might be willing to give it a go, provided I could get back in to where I was going without having to climb to the MEA. Remember the MSA around your departure airport, and think about how you would get back in if you stick your nose in and it gets frostbit. In a situation where icing was possible but wasn’t being reported, and the MOCA was below the freezing level, I might even be tempted to give it a shot going through the potential ice unless people were reporting icing. The idea is that I have LORAN and GPS on board, and the GPS has a power source independent of the aircraft, and the odds that I’ll be forced to descend below the freezing level (to the MOCA, where I still won’t hit anything) AND the LORAN or electrical system goes out on me AND the GPS goes out on me are so long as not to be worth considering. So push come to shove, I can descend. This is all a risk management game – how much has to go wrong before you run out of options? If you postulate enough simultaneous failures, eventually you have nothing left to work with and you die. But the fact is, for two independednt things to fail on the same flight, you need to be having a really bad day, so I don’t worry about it. Ice forming when it wasn’t forecast even though there is visible moisture and temperatures below freezing? That’s not all that common, but not unexpected either. If you don’t plan for that you’re a moron. Electrical failure? Same deal. Both in one day? Pretty damn remote. Handheld GPS going at the same time? Man, it just wasn’t your day. See what I’m getting at? The idea is this – if you have visible moisture and are in subfreezing conditions, ice can form. If all your outs depend on ice not forming somewhere under those conditions, you’re kidding yourself. You need an out that involves either getting to where it’s above freezing or getting to where there is no visible moisture, and getting there QUICKLY. In general, if you’re on the East or West coast in winter, or in the mountains any time of year, and you have a need to fly IFR (meaning the weather won’t let you get there VFR) then you need deice. Or you can take your chances. Sure, there are days that are exceptions, but that’s the general rule. I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast.
Well, how far do your abilities stretch? This is what I mean by being where you can still climb 500 fpm. Face it, tops are not very likely to rise more than 500 fpm. Also, if you can still do 500 fpm where you are, odds are you can go another 5000 ft up with little trouble. The tops are not likely to go that much higher everywhere at once. A lightly loaded C-182 should still be doing 500 fpm up at 7000 ft. I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself. 1SM in haze or whatever.
If the haze is thick enough to reduce the vis to 1 sm, well, maybe. That takes A LOT of moisture, maybe enough that it might start to come out as ice. But I’ve yet to see visibility that poor without ceilings so low as to make going under anywhere but wide-open Midwest (and maybe even not there anymore, what with all the towers going up) way too scary even for me. Michael
Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions.
Airmet Zulu usually has an altitude range attached to it, ie. "occasional moderate icing between freezing level and FL180". You can sometimes get slightly above the airmet. I’ve seen Airmet Zulu with tops at 14,000 on a number of occasions. I don’t know how they come up with that, weather it’s determined by temperatures aloft or the estimtated tops of the clouds.
Wrong. Very, very wrong. The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing. Period. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react,
Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning. I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours. Thanks for your observations! — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
Actual ice is not rare. You will find ice in virtually every cloud below 0C on the West Coast. There are plenty of places with ice-free clouds around 0C but they are generally not near the coast. Mike MU-2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.
A C-182, if not too heavily loaded, has enough engine to carry some ice so if you get out of the icing quickly you should be OK. That’s about it, though. If you have no options for getting out of the icing quickly, you have no business even sticking your nose in it
So by quickly, you might say you could consider trying to get on top when the overcast is only reported to be 500 feet thick stratus and no pireps of mod or greater icing?? I remember my first solo IMC. I plunged into the clouds on climbout, expection to be IMC all the way to my destination, only to pop out on top within 30 seconds. (not in winter of course) What a beautiful sight! And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. As I once discovered, that’s not sufficient to stay safe. It’s fine if you are above the undercast and still have plenty of performance to go higher, but if you’re pretty much maxed out (your climb rate is down below 500 fpm where you are cruising) exactly what are you planning to do if the tops rise? They can, you know. I got caught that way once myself.
I guess maybe I should be able to see the ground through the clouds on a continuous basis as I fly enroute on top, then if the tops rise above my abilities, I can descend through a hole in the undercast. Low vis does not make ice. Precip can.
I thought I heard it said on this group, that low visibility can indeed cause icing by itself. 1SM in haze or whatever. … Aaron
I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment. But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right?
For the legal aspects I recommend http://www.avweb.com/articles/icingb/index.html But then I’ve very rarely paid much attention to the FARs myself. 
Paul Bertorelli’s article in November’s IFR is also well worth a read. It sent shivers down my spine. I have that T-shirt… Julian Scarfe
I got "page could not be found" on the sites you mentioned, but I think they are here now. http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/vvice.html and http://www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/awc/nnice.html I also like http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/integrated/index.html and http://www.rap.ucar.edu/largedrop/ nice cloud tops graphs and icing reports and "ice at your intended altitude". Also the ADDS java pireps and airmets at http://adds.awc-kc.noaa.gov/projects/adds/index.html also look under the ADDS satellite icon and do the "forecast clouds" thing for your altitude. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, Which is why I placed the disclaimer that I was a VFR pilot at the beginning. I know I have lots to learn and was fishing for a response like yours.
The scary part is that I was a low time VFR-only pilot when I was rapidly disabused of my misconceptions. Story follows. It was a winter day in Inidiana, and I wanted to fly. My girlfriend wanted to eat. I convinced her that it would be fun to go to Rochester (IN) where there was a nice restaurant right across the street from the airport. The weather was 8000OVC and 10 mile vis – good VFR by anyone’s estimation. When I got my briefing the briefer warned me about icing in clouds. I pointed out that I was a VFR pilot in a VFR airplane and not planning to be in any clouds. He told me I’d be fine. Now icing is usually most severe at temperatures above zero – the air in subzero clouds is usually too dry for any significant icing to occur. The bases were at 8000 ft, and the ground temperatures were subfreezing. This SHOULD have clued me in about the inversion, but I was a low time VFR-only pilot and missed the cue. (For our European readers, I refer to zero F, which is about -18C) The Tomahawk I rented had the 125 hp engine. The advantage was that in the cool winter air, the bigger engine was just the ticket to get us to a comfortable cruising altitude quickly. The disadvantage was that at full power it was a thirsty beast, and for W&B reasons I elected to depart with a less than full load of fuel. I estimated that I had about 3 hours, and the round trip would take about 1.5 hours at the power settings I would be using. That seemed like a comfortable safety margin for day-VFR flying. The trip out and the lunch were uneventful, I hit my chekpoints perfectly, and lunch was good. The trip back started out just fine. Then I flew into a light rain shower. It was very light, and I could see right through it, so I really did not realize anything was wrong until I was in it. Then I noticed (and this all happened in a matter of seconds) that the horizon was going away. No, it was not a case of inadvertent VFR-into-IMC. There was a layer of clear ice building on my windshield. I made an immediate turn out of the shower. I expect my total time in the rain was only about a minute. But by the time I was out of it, I was at full throttle, only a little above Vy, and was gaining MAYBE 50-100 ft/min. I also could not see through my windshield because it, like the wings, was carrying a load of clear ice. Also, at full throttle, I now had less than an hour of fuel. I was lucky and I kept my head. I got help from ATC, the ice eventually sublimated off (but I had a plan that would, I think, have worked even with the ice – I was getting vectors to the 10,000+ ft runway at Grissom AFB), and I made an uneventful landing with about 30 minutes of fuel in my tanks. Had I crashed, no doubt I would have gotten a 90 for flying in known icing conditions. Thanks for your observations!
You’re welcome. I really did not mean to come down hard on you. It’s just that I used to believe what you believe, and that very nearly got me killed. Here’s another observation – weather is the most complex and open-ended area of pilot knowledge. The amount of weather knowledge that the average pilot has when he is given a ticket is pretty minimal. Unsurprisingly, it is also the major player in airplane crashes. Michael
There is nothing in Part 91 that specifically addresses flight in icing conditions (ignoring, of course, 91.527 which does not apply to most newsgroupies). The legal problem arises from 91.9, which refers to restrictions in the manual for the aircraft. I think common sense is a wonderful substitute for regulation, however. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur. However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment. But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182. I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be. With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider! I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff. … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z. Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR. But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)
Two sites that you can check out for unofficial guidance (they are experimental) are www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/nnice.html and www.awc-kc.noaa.gov/vvice. Bob Gardner – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182. I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be. With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider! I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff. … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z. Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR. But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)
I sort of feel that I, (in my Cessna 182 non ice approved) should deal with ice as you would with thunderstorms. Stay VFR whenever it’s subfreezing so you can see your options and see the situation ahead and behind. And if you’re on top, don’t let the undercast close below you unless you know there are plenty of breaks in the clouds within you’re fuel range. In a way, it seems safer on top as long as you can get there and down without having to penetrate freezing clouds. I’m not so sure about the whole route below the deck. Low visibility I heard can make ice by itself, and you could get some bad precip. I don’t want to be one of those who have had to land with a glazed over windshield peeking out the side window. … Aaron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.
1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR?
I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations?
There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area)
Naw! It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles)
It doesn’t. There’s snow. There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions. All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint. You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not? If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael
You expect us to trust your judgement when you willingly flew a Traumahawk ? Kidding. Agreed with everything you said. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.
I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice.
Actual ice certainly may be rare. However, it is illegal to fly in icing conditions. If you have airmet zulu, and you fly above the icing level in that airmet, and you either fly in visible moisture, or get rained on, you are flying in known ice conditions. — I can’t do it. So you can’t do it either. QED.
2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area)
Here’s about the extent of my cloud physics… You never *know* that you’re not going to get freezing rain, but without an inversion it’s unlikely. If precip is forming above the freezing level it’s usually as ice. As it falls into warmer temperatures below the freezing level it melts. Neither are necessarily problems, over and above what you’d expecting the same cloud without the precip; the formation of precip above the freezing level can actually be a good sign, as it may be a sign that the cloud is glaciating (turning from supercooled liquid drops into ice particles). The danger comes where precipitation falls from warmer temperatures above as rain into a sub-zero layer at lower levels. That’s freezing rain. In my part of the world (UK), it’s an infrequent scenario, but it certainly can happen. In the mid-US, where there’s less water around to keep the lower levels warm in winter, it’s probably a more frequent occurrence. Precipitation does, however, indicate that the cloud tops are higher than they otherwise would be, if it’s convective. In my limited experience some of the worst icing conditions are the tops of building cumulus which have not yet started producing much precip. Julian Scarfe
Thanks. This is helpful. -pw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen. Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR. What it takes is an inversion. You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice. Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? Wrong. Very, very wrong. The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing. Period. If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not. We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be. You won’t know until you fly through them. You certainly won’t know days in advance. Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited. Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up. Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood. Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael
Allow me to express my interest in this thread as well. There are many sources about icing with respect to the types of icing and the specific local conditions in which they occur. However, I am looking for sources that discuss icing from a more general stand point. Types of area forecasts to avoid. I know it is illegal to fly into know icing conditions without deicing equipment. But that does not prohibit me from flying over it or under it right? Aaron, My suggestion is don’t fly over the adirondak mountains in challenging conditions. North East of Syracuse, it gets sparse quickly. If you have to cross over the ADK’s do so using SLK (Saranac Lake) at least it will keep you over route 3 and away from the biggest mountains most of the time. The northern route (along route 11 through Malone) is better (no mountains). The southern route (east Albany and then north to Burlington on VT side so you don’t cross over much of Lake Champlain) is the safest since stays over major highways and doesn’t cross over mountains. Since your from Detroit, pack warmly in case you have to put down. There has to be snow on the ADK mountains by now. Cheers, Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182. I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be. With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider! I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff. … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z. Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR. But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)
I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds.
In fact this is the norm in the northern half of the country for about half the year… It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough.
It hardly matters what the temperature is under the clouds – you need both below-freesing temperatures AND visible moisture for icing to happen. Unless it rains, you are safe below the clouds. You CAN get icing VFR. What it takes is an inversion. You fly in the clear, below the clouds, in subfreeezing temperatures. Rain falls above you, where it’s warmer, and the supercooled water hits your airplane and sticks as ice. Been there, done that, it sucked. First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right?
Wrong. Very, very wrong. The only thing predictable about ice is that you can’t get it if there’s no visible moisture or the temperature is above freezing. Period. If you are flying in clouds and the temperature is below freezing, you are taking your chances whether icing is predicted or not. We used to have a regular on this newsgroup who nearly got himself and his family killed by taking off into such conditions in an underpowered light single when there was no icing forecast. That’s not to say people don’t do it – but every year we lose a few who do, and scare the bejeezus out of many more. In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s
ice. If there are clouds and it’s below freezing, there may be. You won’t know until you fly through them. You certainly won’t know days in advance. Further, with a typical light single, once you start building ice your options become VERY limited. Here’s a rule of thumb – if at your cruising altitude you can’t manage a 500 fpm climb, then odds are if you start picking up ice you can’t escape it by going up. Your options are going down (better hope it gets above freezing above the MEA) or turning around and going back to where the ice wasn’t building (better hope the weather hasn’t changed – it may be no better behind than ahead). Icing is poorly understood. Icing forecasts are largely experimental. If you go into the clouds at subfreezing temperatures and are not prepared to deal with icing at any time, well, you’re just kidding yourself. There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive
NO THEY ARE NOT. Believing that nearly caused me to crash a Tomahawk with my girlfriend on board, and if I had been a little slower to react, I would have been just another statistic. Michael
I have seen conditions when one could travel VFR under the cloud deck when one could not travel IFR in the clouds. It is because the MEA puts you into the ice, whereas there is no ice under the clouds, not cold enough. For example 2000′ overcast, 6 degrees C on the ground, will usually be above freezing right up to the cloud deck. In the clouds, it is freezing. Tops are high, say 10000AGL. Fairly common actually. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? I’m just a VFR studying for the written but I’ll take a stab: First, why would you go VFR if you’ve got the rating? Icing conditions are fairly predictable. Be on the lookout for ice and have an out if things get touchy. Simple as that . . . right? In any case, you’ll know weather there’s ice in them thar clouds one or two days before the trip. Just ’cause there’s clouds doesn’t mean there’s ice. 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? There’s snow, there’s rain then there’s icing conditions. They are all mutually exclusive and you won’t know anything concrete until a couple days before the trip. Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) Naw! It’s best to no go if your chances are not good for reaching your required alternate or if your credit card is maxed out (a healthy credit card is a FAR regulation case you didn’t know) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) It doesn’t. There’s snow. There’s rain. There’s bad visibility then there’s icing conditions. All depends on the moisture content and temperature and dewpoint. You can have cold and wet without ice and ice without cold. The question to me would be, can I get to a decent alternate or not? If not, you don’t go. — Jim Fisher North Alabama Cherokee 180
I’m planning a trip from Detroit area to Burlington Vermont if a few weeks in our club 182. I look at the weather each day and take a guess at what my go/no-go odds would be. With icing potential it gets pretty confusing with many options to consider! I’ve been looking at staying under the clouds VFR along low country and over lots of airports in case I need a quick out. Then I look (instead) at climbing through a holes in the broken or scattered layer and going on top. (if it looks like lots of openings for my descent at my destination) I have a few questions: 1. Since I don’t want to mess with freezing clouds is it usually best to go VFR? 2. If there is some precip along the route, and it’s reported either snow or rain, how do I know I’m not going to get some nasty freezing rain between stations? Is it best to no-go when there is some precip along the route with just above freezing surface temps? (even though there is no warm front in the area) 3. At what point does lower visibility raise the potential of ice. (I’m cruising under the deck at near freezing with no precip, but the visibility is 4 miles) Sorry for all the questions, but this is my first instrument rated winter. I have no experience in this stuff. … Aaron P.S. take today the 17th at 10z. Flying under the overcast would probably scare me off with the precip and some MVFR-IFR. But if the sky breaks up enough to depart through a hole, I could go on top with tops below 8000 and take one of the openings that show near my destination, with my out NW MA. (lots of fuel with long range tanks)
Have I used a slinky? Well no. As an aside, you might try asking Mr G this question…especially if (like me) you’re the type of guy who just can’t resist pouring gasoline on a fire. The ensuing eruption might be fun to watch. I have fly-fished with a similar rig: marshmallow nymphs (ala Fly Tyer’s Bench, Fly Fisherman 199?). Marshmallow nymphs are dynamite. They are soft-bodied modular nymph bodies made from open-cell foam, covered with a fine nylon netting. The open-cell nymph body soaks up enough water to (almost) reach neutral bouyancy. So, if you put a split shot 12-18" up the leader, you have no trouble sinking the fly. But because of a small residual, bouyancy caused by lingering air bubbles in the foam, a marshmallow nymph does float casually upward from the split shot. In other words, you can fish a marshmallow nymph right off the bottom, but it still has a weightless quality that allows it to move naturally, slowly, softly in the water. ….best goddam stonefly nymphs there are. — /* Sandy Pittendrigh –oO0 * http://www.nervana.montana.edu/~sandy */
Sorry if I missed it, but where can we find "marshmallow nymphs?" (Or better yet, the materials to make them?) Thanks, Scott
Why use a slinkie for flyfishing? I’ve used lots of weighted (artificial lead wound) wooly buggers, which cast fairly well, get down well, and are very effective for steelhead. Of course you can vary the weight when tying. I use these for summer steelhead fishing mostly, since the water is often too fast and deep in Northwest rivers to adequately sink the fly during the winter.
Slinkies are indeed a part of spinning or bait casting tackle, not at all to be confused with fly fishing. Remember (as if any of you need reminding), fly casting throws/casts the line, not the lure; bait or spin casting throws/casts the terminal rig. Since slinkies are part of the terminal rig, they are, by definition, bait/spin casting gear. Mono alone doesn’t cast well, and a fly doesn’t cast well on mono. They are totally different fishing methods (sometimes philosophies), and anyone who tells you he/she is fly fishing while they tie on a slinkie is only kidding themselves. Fishing with flies and a fly rod doesn’t necessarily mean you are fly fishing.You have to be casting your line not your sinker. I fish with yarn flies(almost exclusively) for steelies. I alternate between a Loomis 1084 drift rod and a Fenwick IronFeather 9 wgt. I’m not a fly fisherman, it’s just that this combination of gear has worked for me. Everything I use is fly fishing gear, including my Systems2, except my line. All mono. I have all the lines and leaders and krap that fly fishing entails, but for steelhead fishing, the simplicity that mono provides cant be beat. And slinkies aren’t part of my arsenal. Al – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems to me that the rig would be easier and more effective using a spinning or bait casting rig. If you want to fish that much weight, a fly rod is not a great cgoice. A similar rig is popular on some of Wyomings big rivers but it is used by spin fishermen. Willi
On the Salmon River in NY, slinkies have become quite popular for those fishing for salmon & steelhead. Because the river is chock full of snags of one sort or another, it is frustratingly common to lose your rig. As often as not, it is the split shot that hangs up; and the flexibility and shape of slinkies seems to reduce this annoying problem. Up there however, they are made up of 3 or more very large split shot, any one of which could cause a serious head injury. They are used predominantly by spin fishermen and snaggers who dredge the bottom with 30 lb. mono. Some find that the sensitivity of a fly rod helps them detect strikes, and use these chuck and duck rigs with fly rods. These fishermen use fly rods simply to lob the weights and a fly without ever really casting their line or having the slightest concept or ability to actually fly fish. Most unfortunately, this is legally considered fly fishing; and these rigs are allowed in the fly fishing only stretches of the river. Sadly, this crap isn’t even necessary. I have never used one. The most weight I’ve ever added has been three BB sized split shot. By casting upstream and mending properly, that’s been more than enough in even the fastest and deepest water. And no, the spinning guys do not get more hookups; quite the opposite. With less weight, the strikes are more easily detected. I would support a legal definition of fly fishing that requires that the fly be propelled only by the weight of the line and limiting the allowable amount of added weight. Whatever everybody wants to do to dredge the river elsewhere is beyond my control, but it ain’t fly fishing and shouldn’t be allowed in fly fishing only areas. Joe
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On the Salmon River in NY, slinkies have become quite popular for those fishing for salmon & steelhead. Because the river is chock full of snags of one sort or another, it is frustratingly common to lose your rig. As often as not, it is the split shot that hangs up; and the flexibility and shape of slinkies seems to reduce this annoying problem. Up there however, they are made up of 3 or more very large split shot, any one of which could cause a serious head injury. They are used predominantly by spin fishermen and snaggers who dredge the bottom with 30 lb. mono. Some find that the sensitivity of a fly rod helps them detect strikes, and use these chuck and duck rigs with fly rods. These fishermen use fly rods simply to lob the weights and a fly without ever really casting their line or having the slightest concept or ability to actually fly fish. Most unfortunately, this is legally considered fly fishing; and these rigs are allowed in the fly fishing only stretches of the river. Sadly, this crap isn’t even necessary. I have never used one. The most weight I’ve ever added has been three BB sized split shot. By casting upstream and mending properly, that’s been more than enough in even the fastest and deepest water. And no, the spinning guys do not get more hookups; quite the opposite. With less weight, the strikes are more easily detected. I would support a legal definition of fly fishing that requires that the fly be propelled only by the weight of the line and limiting the allowable amount of added weight. Whatever everybody wants to do to dredge the river elsewhere is beyond my control, but it ain’t fly fishing and shouldn’t be allowed in fly fishing only areas. Joe
Hey Joe, I hear ya!! I fish the Salmon River Quite often and find what most fishermen consider fly-fishing in the fly zone ludicrous. I admit that some sort of weight system is needed on the River( Sink tip, split shot??), but the slinky rig is not fly-fishing. The snags are occuring because of the mass of weight on the leader. Minimum flow are keeping the river down. This whole season I didn’t ever add much weight and I am having one of the best years in a while. It is fast becoming a lost art to actually stategically wade, cast a fly-line, mend the line, and control the drift through areas suspected to hold Steelhead. I seldom fish the fly zone. It is crowded with weight chucking slinky-ites dredging the bottom and foul hooking fish. I don’t understand how a take can be detected with that rig. Keep on casting!! Matt C.
It seems to me that the rig would be easier and more effective using a spinning or bait casting rig. If you want to fish that much weight, a fly rod is not a great cgoice. A similar rig is popular on some of Wyomings big rivers but it is used by spin fishermen. Of course, "they’re a fun and a wonderful toy". I missed the original post, what’s a Slinkie in fishing. - Ken
common drift fishing (gear fishing) weight used by drift fishermen in the northwest. used by so-called flyfishermen in the great lakes and some in the northwest. a parachute cord filled with lead shot as burned at both ends to seal it. hooked to a swivel (since when has using a swivel been part of flyfishing tackle?). sorry guys, i don’t think slinky fishing is flyfishing. i have nothing against people using the rig, but calling it flyfishing bugs me. the whole setup uses a level line, so one is actually just flipping, not casting the line like normal flyfishing. flyfishing for steelhead is by itself taking a more difficult way to catch these fish and putting restraints on ourselves because of our tackle choice. you can catch plenty of steelhead without using slinkies, especially in the northwest. chris
It seems to me that the rig would be easier and more effective using a spinning or bait casting rig. If you want to fish that much weight, a fly rod is not a great cgoice. A similar rig is popular on some of Wyomings big rivers but it is used by spin fishermen.
Of course, "they’re a fun and a wonderful toy". I missed the original post, what’s a Slinkie in fishing. - Ken — "It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn’t feel like a giant. I felt very, very small." -Neil Armstrong
It seems to me that the rig would be easier and more effective using a spinning or bait casting rig. If you want to fish that much weight, a fly rod is not a great cgoice. A similar rig is popular on some of Wyomings big rivers but it is used by spin fishermen. Willi
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am headed to Alaska late August – first part of September. I am very interested in heading to Katmai for a day or two to do some flyfishing for Rainbows. Can anyone give me information on where to go/stay/fish. I will have my wife with me who tolerates fishing, but is not an avid fisherman. I would like to make this experience good for her, as well as try to get some serious fishing in (if only for a day or two!). Any information would be greatly appreciated Thanks, Brett
Brett, Perhaps we here at the Alaska Outdoor Registry can assist you. Please visit us at http://www.juneau.com/aor/ Brian & Connie Alaska Outdoor Registry Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <HTML<BODY
> <BR > I am headed to Alaska late August – first part of September. I am very<BR > interested in heading to Katmai for a day or two to do some flyfishing for<BR > Rainbows.<BR > <BR > Can anyone give me information on where to go/stay/fish. I will have my<BR > wife with me who tolerates fishing, but is not an avid fisherman. I would<BR > like to make this experience good for her, as well as try to get some<BR > serious fishing in (if only for a day or two!).<BR > <BR > Any information would be greatly appreciated<BR > <BR > Thanks,<BR > <BR > Brett</DT <DTBrett,</DT <DT </DT <DTPerhaps we here at the Alaska Outdoor Registry can assist you. Please visit us at http://www.juneau.com/aor/ </DT <DT </DT <DTBrian & Connie</DT <DTAlaska Outdoor Registry</DT <DT </DT </BODY </HTML
I am headed to Alaska late August – first part of September. I am very interested in heading to Katmai for a day or two to do some flyfishing for Rainbows. Can anyone give me information on where to go/stay/fish. I will have my wife with me who tolerates fishing, but is not an avid fisherman. I would like to make this experience good for her, as well as try to get some serious fishing in (if only for a day or two!). Any information would be greatly appreciated Thanks, Brett
What are the best EASILY AVAILABLE books on salmon fishing and tying salmon flies? Thanx for the help.
What are the best EASILY AVAILABLE books on salmon fishing and tying salmon flies? Thanx for the help.
First I presume you are asking about Atlantic salmon books, not books relating to inferior <vbg Pacific species. As I write, Fishing Atlantic Salmon by Joe Bates and Pamela Bates Richards, is the best and most available Atlantic salmon fly fishing and fly tying book. It is published by Stackpole and goes for $75.00(US)–although I am reliably informed that a little shopping around might beat that price. Poul Jorgensen’s Salmon Flies is always recommended for fly tying and is easily available. Bates’ much earlier book, Atlantic Salmon Flies and Fishing, is a great classic and has been reissued by Stackpole. Finally, my own, Atlantic Salmon – A Fly Fishing Primer (mimimal fly-tying), can usually be found in second hand catalogs at indecently low prices. Paul Marriner
What are the best EASILY AVAILABLE books on salmon fishing and tying salmon flies? Thanx for the help.
What kind of salmon and where? Full dress atlantic salmon flies or pacific/alaska shiny "purty" things?
Fishing, is a great classic and has been reissued by Stackpole. Finally, my own, Atlantic Salmon – A Fly Fishing Primer (mimimal fly-tying), can usually be found in second hand catalogs at indecently low prices. Paul Marriner
All great fishing books eventually get remaindered. Known fact. Charles Cotton had the same problem. Andrew
For Atlantic Salmon fishing I swear by Hugh Falkus’ book "Salmon Fishing" available here through Orvis and presumably others.
Try Fly Fishing for Pacific Salmon, Bruce Ferguson, Les Johnson, Pat Trotter, Frank Amato Publications.
Has anyone had any experience fishing in the Caymans or Cozumel? I’ll be there this Xmas and would like to do a little bit of fishing. I heard there are bonefish and tarpon opportunities. Thanks for your help. Bill
I was in Grand Cayman last Feb. You are probably staying on 7 mile beach. If so, go north and find Papagallo Restaurant. It, by the way, is the only really fine restaurant we found on the island if you’re into that. Keep going past the place and suddenly you’er in bush on rough dirt roads. There are tons of canals that were dug to keep mosquitos down. There are supposed to be small tarpon in them and if the lake at the reastaurant is any indication they are there. Whats even prettier is the shore along the north in this neighborhood. There is a reef way off with breakers and very large expansive flats and NO CROWDS at all which is very welcome from the 7 mile beach scene. It gets you into the island thing "Mon" and the fly fishing thing all very quickly ( and close to the hotels) and is really beautiful. When you get to the end of the first road past the restaurant go left to get to the shore here. Anothyer place thats even easier and very pretty, but not as wildernessesque, is to go through and south of Georgetown and take the road that goes along the south shore. There are a few parking areas where you can walk 30 feet to the flats and its gorgeus. The areas I found are after the road turns east, about 10 minutes after you have passed where the cruise ships dock. Check out the guy who is the doctor of the black coral clinic you pass on your way. Neat fellow with great prices on stuff he carves himself. I found grand cayman to be very civilized and without these fishing excursions, would have hated it. They balanced it perfectly. Its not a breathtaking place like the Virgin islands, but now you know where to find really inspiring places. Have a good time. Clair
Has anyone had any experience fishing in the Caymans or Cozumel? I’ll be there this Xmas and would like to do a little bit of fishing. I heard there are bonefish and tarpon opportunities. Thanks for your help. Bill
You can catch bonefish on Cozumel anytime. There are some real good guides that can take you out to the remote north end of the island. I have fished with Victor, Papo, Enrica(sp) and Alex. You can stay at the Southern Cross Club on Little Cayman Island. They have bonefish and small land-locked tarpon. A 9′#8, 3 or 4 piece outfit is the most popular size for light salt water travel. It is a good size for most fish to 30#. I use a Mastery Bonefish floating line because it is stiffer and works better out of a boat. Take a varity of bonefish flies and some 2/0 streamers. I always take a few poppers. Polarized glasses and a hat are needed. If you have any questions you can e.mail or call me, 800/4000FLY (USA). William Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA
Was in Cayman Brac in 94 and stayed at Brac Reef. Main purpose was diving however, righty there in front of the hotel was a wadeable rip where one could cast to Tarpon, Lemon sharks and Barracuda ! In addition, Little Cayman was a short boat ride away and offered large Tarpon and Bonefish. — "The true Angler is content to fish alone" Brian Di Carlo
That’s because you’re a gimp!
I’M TELLING YOU THIS IS THE TRUTH. THERE IS PRACTICALLY NO PRESSURE ON THIS STREAM, AT LEAST WHEN I WAS FISHING IT BACK IN ‘92 -’95, AND IF YOU EXERCISED THE LEAST BIT OF RESTRAINT AND WERE AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT STEALTHY (SP?) YOU COULD BUST THESE BAD BOYS WITH REGULARITY ON ROYAL WULFFS AND YELLOW HUMPYS. THAT MAY NOT BE THE CASE ANYMORE WITH ALL THE GODDAMN CALIFORNIANS AND NORMAN MACLAIN WANNABES TROMPING THROUGH THE WATER LIKE SOLDIERS ON THE BEACHES OF NORMANDY. THE WEST END OF THE CREEK JUST BEFORE IT’S CONFLUENCE WITH THE EAGLE RIVER IS EXCEPTONAL. AND IN THE WINTER IT’S EVEN BETTER. PRESSURE MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I can confirm that you can catch 20+ inchers in the town of vail. I’ve : only been up there one day and I hooked into a couple 15"-ers but as I : was kayaking another day I saw some other people catching larger ones and : the guide at the fly store was telling tales of 25" fish he had cought : that week. Wow. A 25" rainbow in a mountain stream (without a lake at the bottom) is a rare thing these days. I’m sure the rarity is increased in the middle of town. Good catch indeed. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
That’s great, now I can walk across the street for a Big Max—-T Wigs—–
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This "Trout in Town" thing is not only real, it is the norm around here in Colorado. In fact Mr. Fletcher, I’ll show you a spot in Colorado where you can catch a 24 incher behind a major busy grocery store. TimW well, boys, i’d be proud to show you where you can catch a 12 inch rainbow so far from any real town that you forget the color of traffic lights. but there would be damn few 24 inchers. and the folks you’d be fishin with talk funny. a. wayne harrison
lets go. TimW
: I can confirm that you can catch 20+ inchers in the town of vail. I’ve : only been up there one day and I hooked into a couple 15"-ers but as I : was kayaking another day I saw some other people catching larger ones and : the guide at the fly store was telling tales of 25" fish he had cought : that week. Wow. A 25" rainbow in a mountain stream (without a lake at the bottom) is a rare thing these days. I’m sure the rarity is increased in the middle of town. Good catch indeed. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
This "Trout in Town" thing is not only real, it is the norm around here in Colorado. In fact Mr. Fletcher, I’ll show you a spot in Colorado where you can catch a 24 incher behind a major busy grocery store. TimW
well, boys, i’d be proud to show you where you can catch a 12 inch rainbow so far from any real town that you forget the color of traffic lights. but there would be damn few 24 inchers. and the folks you’d be fishin with talk funny. a. wayne harrison
Gore Creek has some pretty big fish and they ain’t all that tame. I haven’t caught a 20" trout there but I’ve no trouble believing that there are fish that big and larger. Catching them is a bit tricky, however. Jeff
I can confirm that you can catch 20+ inchers in the town of vail. I’ve only been up there one day and I hooked into a couple 15"-ers but as I was kayaking another day I saw some other people catching larger ones and the guide at the fly store was telling tales of 25" fish he had cought that week. Leave a few for me and remember a lot of the area is restricted fishing. TJ
I particularly like bashing stockers for the smoker in front of the tourists at the rest areas along I-70. And I can never understand why some of the folks on here think you taunt them…
They’re too sensitive. TimW
: I can confirm that you can catch 20+ inchers in the town of vail. I’ve : only been up there one day and I hooked into a couple 15"-ers but as I : was kayaking another day I saw some other people catching larger ones and : the guide at the fly store was telling tales of 25" fish he had cought : that week. Wow. A 25" rainbow in a mountain stream (without a lake at the bottom) is a rare thing these days. I’m sure the rarity is increased in the middle of town. Good catch indeed.
The chances are very, very good that this was a brooder released (sent to pasture) by the CDOW. Gore creek can not support this sized fish naturally. TimW
: You should see the holding pools and trout observation structure (it is : cool, like a sea world underground view into a large hole below a rapid) : in Boulder, Co. Many, may big fish. Lots are the DOW brooders sent to : pasture. And that is really the thought behind my post. I know Boulder pretty well, and I don’t recall "many, many big fish". No wonder, when one considers the number of kids splashing around in the water and homeless people looking for chow. I do know there are quite a number of fish in Boulder Creek downtown, I just didn’t believe they were large. Now I do. I’ve always admired Missoula with the Clarks Fork running through town. Noon whistle bell rings and the folks head to the river with their rods. One o’clock comes and they go back to work. : Grizzly King. Again, ‘parkish’. I particularly like bashing stockers : for the smoker in front of the tourists at the rest areas along I-70. And I can never understand why some of the folks on here think you taunt them… : In fact Mr. Fletcher, I’ll show you a spot in Colorado where you can catch : a 24 incher behind a major busy grocery store. I do that all the time. The trick is to hide behind a box and then jump out when they toss the overripe salmon in the garbage. I often hear "good catch". What is that story by McGuane where he walks through town and catches fish? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
: Hey everyone, : I have a question. If you only had one evening to fish within a : half-hour of Vail, where would you choose to fish? I am going up : there tomorrow and would like your insight. : Thanks : JS Homestake Creek, south of Minturn. It’s beyond Battle Mt. and Redcliff. Turn right at the cabin with the Hummingbird feeder to cross a small bridge on the creek. Anywhere on the ~8 miles to Homestake Res. has nice little Brookies. Clean water, no tailing drainage, unlike the Eagle near Minturn. Even if you don’t catch anything, it’s an interesting drive past Battle Mt. Tallyho ! Alpha Kilo
: Homestake Creek, south of Minturn. It’s beyond Battle Mt. and Redcliff. : Turn right at the cabin with the Hummingbird feeder to cross a small : bridge on the creek. Anywhere on the ~8 miles to Homestake Res. has : nice little Brookies. Clean water, no tailing drainage, unlike the : Eagle near Minturn. Even if you don’t catch anything, it’s an interesting : drive past Battle Mt. I’ve heard that it is absolutely useless to use surface flies on the fish near Minturn. Nothing works but nymphs. I guess they have so much lead in them that they can’t get to the surface to go for a dry fly. They just sink to the bottom. Dynamite doesn’t even bring them up. True? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
: Homestake Creek, south of Minturn. It’s beyond Battle Mt. and Redcliff. : Turn right at the cabin with the Hummingbird feeder to cross a small : bridge on the creek. Anywhere on the ~8 miles to Homestake Res. has : nice little Brookies. Clean water, no tailing drainage, unlike the : Eagle near Minturn. Even if you don’t catch anything, it’s an interesting : drive past Battle Mt. I’ve heard that it is absolutely useless to use surface flies on the fish near Minturn. Nothing works but nymphs. I guess they have so much lead in them that they can’t get to the surface to go for a dry fly. They just sink to the bottom. Dynamite doesn’t even bring them up. True?
but it’s really worth it, ’cause you can catch a 4 inch fish and honestly tell the boys in the shop that you nailed a 6 pounder…. TimW
You have a gold medal stream running right through the heart of Vail, Gore Creek. Twenty inch rainbows on attractors. The best in town fishing in Colorado.
Rick, : You have a gold medal stream running right through the heart of Vail, : Gore Creek. Twenty inch rainbows on attractors. The best in town : fishing in Colorado. I find this to be a remarkable statement, that 20 inch bows can be caught in town. If it is true, that is the ultimate "tame" fish.
I can readily believe that you could read something like this in a brochure published by the Vail Chamber of Commerce, but don’t bet your firstborn on it. Nor should you put much stock in the "Two Trout Over 16 Inches" signs; if you read the shocking reports you will quickly realize that they’re really just a statistically and politically correct way to say "Catch and Release". However, in a stream not far away … Tom
: You have a gold medal stream running right through the heart of Vail, : Gore Creek. Twenty inch rainbows on attractors. The best in town : fishing in Colorado. I find this to be a remarkable statement, that 20 inch bows can be caught in town. If it is true, that is the ultimate "tame" fish. Can anyone confirm whether J&J’s assertion is true?
This is not only true, but it is the trend in urban stream reclamation. The Roaring Fork through Aspen is the same way. "Parkish", I would call it. You should see the holding pools and trout observation structure (it is cool, like a sea world underground view into a large hole below a rapid) in Boulder, Co. Many, may big fish. Lots are the DOW brooders sent to pasture. The planners in Glenwood have planned and started construction on a bike path along the Fork through town. They rollerblade in bikinis along the colorado through the Glenwood Canyon, and you need to be careful where you hurl the Grizzly King. Again, ‘parkish’. I particularly like bashing stockers for the smoker in front of the tourists at the rest areas along I-70. The best section of the Blue (trust me) *IS* in the Heart of Silverthorne, problem here is property access. Same in Breckenridge, Ouray etc. etc. This "Trout in Town" thing is not only real, it is the norm around here in Colorado. In fact Mr. Fletcher, I’ll show you a spot in Colorado where you can catch a 24 incher behind a major busy grocery store. TimW
: You have a gold medal stream running right through the heart of Vail, : Gore Creek. Twenty inch rainbows on attractors. The best in town : fishing in Colorado. I find this to be a remarkable statement, that 20 inch bows can be caught in town. If it is true, that is the ultimate "tame" fish. Can anyone confirm whether J&J’s assertion is true? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
writes: Hey everyone, I have a question. If you only had one evening to fish within a half-hour of Vail, where would you choose to fish? I am going up there tomorrow and would like your insight. Thanks JS
Js, I think that would be Beaver Creek in Beaver Creek (just outside of Vail) I hear that’s some good small stream fishing but, haven’t tried it yet. Probably some mosquito’s, elk hair caddis, small humpy’s, ect… would work just fine. Best of luck….Cliff
Hey everyone, I have a question. If you only had one evening to fish within a half-hour of Vail, where would you choose to fish? I am going up there tomorrow and would like your insight. Thanks JS
Hey everyone, I have a question. If you only had one evening to fish within a half-hour of Vail, where would you choose to fish? I am going up there tomorrow and would like your insight. Thanks JS
Why not fish Gore Creek, which possesses Gold-Medal waters right through the city of Vail? Eagle and Colorado Rivers are close-by and are always nice rivers… — MORGAN P. BROWN Colorado School of Mines Rice University Phone: (303) 215-9190 URL: http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro
Thanks to all for their input. As for now…It’s practice, practice, practice
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments. I have heard that the "correct" cast has little or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action. Any opinions for a beginner? btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural. No fighting now, just opinions.
IMHO flycasting is really counter intuitive. Everything your body tells you is right, isn’t. What starts out feeling awkward – works. Once you understand how a fly rod works, then how you need to move it makes sense.
My observation is that this is especially true if you start thinking about it too much… If you simply focus on the fish and the objective at hand, the fly simply ends up right…. …in the top of a tree… TimW
IMHO flycasting is really counter intuitive. Everything your body tells you is right, isn’t. What starts out feeling awkward – works. Once you understand how a fly rod works, then how you need to move it makes sense.
Dan, I started to take exception to your statement, thought about it a moment, and realized…. I was lousy at sports my whole life. It’s a wonder I can even throw a ball, and don’t expect me to throw it accurately. And, I’m left-handed. My whole life is about awkward! So, what do I know about how normal motion should feel? Tight lines, and keep your line off the handle, Charley
I frimly beleive thta Lefty Kreh’s methods work the best. Find a book or video that he has done and try to employ his methods. A lot of what he taught me was employed fishing in harsh weather and in tournaments. Lefty uses his arms and shoulders more than wrist. Tight lines!! Ron
I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments. I have heard that the "correct" cast has little or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action. Any opinions for a beginner? btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural. No fighting now, just opinions.
In actuality Baglock, how you move the rod doesn’t matter to the rod as long as you move the right distance for the appropriate amount of line with the right acceleration. Doesn’t care what muscles you use either. If you move the rod in the correct manner you will get a good cast. Then the trick is to be able to repeat it over and over and be accurate and be comfortable all day when doing it. To meet those criteria I recommend you try to use your forearm as an entire unit and try not to use your wrist at all. Now the cast can’t actually be done well or easily without a final touch of wrist in each direction, but it is a VERY SMALL movement of the wrist. If you try not to move your wrist you will probably move it about right, if you try to use your wrist you will move it too much. If you use your forearm as the main lever, you are using a big lever with strong muscles and only one real moving part – the elbow. Fewer variables, more reliable predictions and results. If you use your wrist to make the cast you are using your hand – a tiny lever, your forearm muscles – which are much weaker than your biceps and triceps, and you have about 12? points of movement in your wrist making it much more difficult to reliably repeat the needed movements. IMHO flycasting is really counter intuitive. Everything your body tells you is right, isn’t. What starts out feeling awkward – works. Once you understand how a fly rod works, then how you need to move it makes sense. If you have trouble picking it up then here are some options: 1) take a casting lesson (best and fastest way to learn either small group or private) 2) join a local fly fishing club (great for all facets of FF and many offer lessons though quality of instructionmay vary from outstanding to barely OK . 3) get a copy of Mel Krieger’s "Essence of Flycasting (vol.1)" Hope this helps, Dan Dan Gracia Orvis West Coast Fly Fishing Schools If you kill that big fish you can’t catch ‘em again. So what if they eat other fish? If you kill the big ones there will only be little ones left (funny how that works!).
I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments. I have heard that the "correct" cast has little or no wrist action and the "correct" cast
Try the no wrist movement. It provides a tigher cast. Make sure your thumb is on the top of the handle and you should see it at 12 oclock when you stop on the back cast.
I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments. I have heard that the "correct" cast has little or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action. Any opinions for a beginner? btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural. No fighting now, just opinions. Any good fly shop should be able to provide you with a good book and video on fly casting. In the meantime, if you tie the end of the butt
section of your rod to your forearm and cast it, you’ll get the idea of how the cast should feel when properly done. If you break your wrist on the back cast, you’ll likely increase your chances of bringing the tip back too far and slapping your line on the water behind you. The same is true for the forward cast. Good luck. Stan
I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments. I have heard that the "correct" cast has little or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action. Any opinions for a beginner? btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural. No fighting now, just opinions.
I found the recent article in the September 96 issue of Fly Fisherman (Correcting 5 Casting Mistakes) to be very helpful. Check it out. Team OS/2 847.808.3913
I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments. I have heard that the "correct" cast has little or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action. Any opinions for a beginner? btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural. No fighting now, just opinions.
Three thoughts come to mind: 1) Devote some time to practice in your yard or at the park. It’ll be easier to focus on the casting when there is no chance of catching fish 2) When my casting seems a little difficult, I focus on my backcast. I try to visualize abruptly opening a freezer door (like the ones on fridges where the freezer section is on top). While this may sound whacky, it usually serves to elevate and tighten my backcast. For me, casting troubles are usually rooted in a faulty backcast. 3) Practice enough to feel the fod flex under the weight of the line. When you can feel the rod at work, you will quickly be able to cast well. You’ll also be able to adjust to different rod actions because it will seem natural to adjust your stroke to maintain the feeling of the rod at work. There are lots of helpful books on the subject. Different conditions, rods, and target situations will have you using lots of wrist sometimes and little or no wrist other times. Hope this helps, August Kristoferson http://www.eskimo.com/~augustk
I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments. I have heard that the "correct" cast has little or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action. Any opinions for a beginner? btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural. No fighting now, just opinions.
I am new to fly casting and looking for some comments. I have heard that the "correct" cast has little or no wrist action and the "correct" cast has plenty of quick wrist action. Any opinions for a beginner? btw- both methods seem to work with the wrist version feeling more natural. No fighting now, just opinions.
Definitely no wrist action, use your arm. Rod tip should be traveling in a straight line. — The views expressed are my own and does not represent those of my employer.
Has anyone been hitting reds (or specks for that matter) in or around Corpus, the Laguna Madre or Aransas Pass lately? We have been getting skunked in the Laguna using Clousers and other attractors. john koon
I was at Baffin Bay two weeks ago with our fly fishing club and the reds were really turned on there. No one using fly rods caught reds less than 27" long, and one member caught a 34-incher. The winds were howling that day – 40 knots, which made the fish much less wary, especially at 9 Mile Flat.
I’m going to fish Pine Creek, Slate Run and Cedar Run, PA for the first time from May 20-25. If anyone has some good advice or anecdotes about the area, I’d really appreciate it. Any hints on nymphing would be great. I’ve been camping in the area before and plan to camp up Slate Run at the campground. Is it free? crowded? I read Charles Meck’s book on PA trout streams and also plan to call the local fly fishing shop at Slate Run, which apparently has a hotline. Also, any thoughts on the Little Juniata? Thanks a million