Question:

Bruiser wrote… I forgot to thank Joe Fleischman for the great gifts.  The book went to Charlie who may venture to Northern NM once in a while, and the necks went to Warren, the other birthday guy and a prolific fly tier.

Speaking of which, I owe a thanks to Joe.  The funny thing is that I needed those for my fly swap flies so you will probably be seeing them again soon Joe, in a different form of course. — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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Of course, no offense to the Penn’s Clave.  Let me amend by saying: Henry’s Fork will be the mother of all Western Claves. We’re sending our DH to Penns bruce h

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  Personally, the best thing about claving is that now when I read your posts, I can hear your voices. Mu

…and there it is.  summed up nicely mu.  course, a few more and you’ll be hearing their footsteps too <g. jeff

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Jeff,  I’m not sure what brand the Tequila was, but it was good, a Reposado. It came in a brown ceramic bottle with a white picket fence molded into the front.

You seem to have found one I don’t know of.  I’ll look for it on my trip west  I coudn’t read the label with double vision!  You should see the flies I tied though.

Oh, I’ve seen ‘em, and they’re too small to see.

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Wayne Harrison wrote…    ah, the stuff of legends!  it reads wonderfully, and makes us all dream of the fabled henry’s fork, where i will plant the bonnie blue flag of the old north state, come this september.

Every couple of weeks I am going to repost this Wayno.  I am holding you to your pledge of attendance.  I would consider it both an honor and a privilege to fish with you and eagerly look forward to the day.  It would finally ease the disappointment I felt in Ennis. — Warren Henry’s Fork Clave info and Bozeman, MT fishing info www.geocities.com/troutbum_mt

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Jeff,  I’m not sure what brand the Tequila was, but it was good, a Reposado. It came in a brown ceramic bottle with a white picket fence molded into the front.  I coudn’t read the label with double vision!  You should see the flies I tied though. Tripper,  Last night it started snowing and it’s let up a little but it hasn’t stopped.  We must have been living right because the storm held off for a couple of days. Wayne,  see you at the Henry’s Fork.  I better bring my Nuevo Mexico flag. bruce h I forgot to thank Joe Fleischman for the great gifts.  The book went to Charlie who may venture to Northern NM once in a while, and the necks went to Warren, the other birthday guy and a prolific fly tier. bruce h

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If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great?

        ah, the stuff of legends!  it reads wonderfully, and makes us all dream of the fabled henry’s fork, where i will plant the bonnie blue flag of the old north state, come this september. your friend in carolina wayno

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 Personally, the best thing about claving is that now when I read your posts, I can hear your voices.

Ah, now THAT captures it perfectly.  Perfectly. JR

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If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great?

It is indeed. Well, we’ll get some pictures posted somewhere soon.

Definitely! Maybe rw’s got some room? We think the Henry’s Fork will be the Mother of All Claves.

Well, maybe the daughter: I’d say the Penn’s shindig has some scary numbers behind it… Thanks for visiting, everyone, I had a blast.

Very cool, thanks for the TR. It sounds like the water clarity wasn’t much of an issue. And you didn’t mention the weather – did George’s snowstorm give the valley a miss? /daytripper (Glad you all had a good trip!)

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If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great?

Yes, my friend, it surely is. Everyone has slow days, days when you are obviously catching fewer fish than your friends.

That only happens to me on the rare days that I go fishing. Thanks to everyone for the nice gifts.  Danl brought me a cool bottle of high quality tequila…

What kind was it?

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If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great?

No doubt about it (irrespective of Gwen Stefani’s anatomy) Hate to tell you, Mu and Bill, but Monday was the best day.

First time I ever heard *shoulda been here tomorrow* As if in a dream, that fish opened his mouth, the fly slid in, and amazingly was hooked.  In all my days there, that’s never happened for me like that before. Mu CAN throw the whole line with little or no effort.

<g What you might not have noticed from where you were watching is that half the time I was chucking a Teeny 130 – that’s why it looked so easy to make the long casts.  I don’t think I’ve ever thrown a whole floating line. Thanks for visiting, everyone, I had a blast.

Sure was a blast.  I learned quite a bit.  I’ve never fished such small flies.  I saw fish being caught in some water that often I would have overlooked.  I overheard Bruiser talking to Charlie about looking for fish in some shallow spots and that help me pick up a very nice fish one morning while casting towards shore while everyone else near me was casting to the deep water.  Watching people’s individual fishing styles was pretty cool too.  Personally, the best thing about claving is that now when I read your posts, I can hear your voices. Mu

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If you ever get the chance and haven’t done so, attend a clave.  I have met lots of great friends this way.  Ain’t the net great? Everyone has slow days, days when you are obviously catching fewer fish than your friends.  Days like those are particularly noticeable at the San Juan, where the fish are everywhere and so are the fly fishers.  Everyone had at least one day of fewer fish, including me, the host.  Imagine that. There was one exception and anyone who reads ROFF knows who that person is. Willi’s unreal.  We keep wondering when he’ll just get blanked, and in the several days I’ve been lucky enough to fish with him it’s never even been close.  Different rivers, different bugs, different conditions, same result. Willi’s letting go of another fish in that familiar fashion – he leans over, quickly grabs the hook, and releases the fish without touching it.  It’s not really all that amazing that he can nimbly release a three pound fish from a size 24 hook in that manner.  Any one of us would be as good if we’d have practiced it 10,000 times  Steve and I were talking one evening after another mini party in an Abe’s room and when we started talking about all the fish we’ve seen Willi catch we started laughing and continued for quite some time.  His skill is uncanny.  Hopefully I’m not embarassing Willi – he’s a very modest guy. Thanks to everyone for the nice gifts.  Danl brought me a cool bottle of high quality tequila that lasted until my friend Arnie arrived.  He’s the western answer to Pamlico Jim.  Charlie gave me one of those cool Fishpond tippet dispensers, Bob another shirt to replace the one he gave me last year.  Mu brought me some French flies.  Yes, I typed that right.  RW paid for my  accomodations and we had a blast fishing together all over the river.  Warren brought a ton of flies for everyone and two tons of materials.  Sorry if anyone was left out, but I still feel like a zombie. We had two or three dinners at the Sportsman (big burgers).  They have dollar bills, decorated with patron’s grafitti, covering the walls.  Last year in December (actually December 2000) I gave the waitress a dollar with the inscription:  ROFF 2000.  In at least fifteen subsequent visits I’ve failed to spot the dollar on any of the walls – my guess was it got pocketed after the unfortunate situation with our tab last year (which we made good on).  On the first night there, we were waiting for a table, and there it was, on the wall, next to the front door.  Cool. The next morning, as we were leaving the breakfast table, a guy at another table asked me if I was Bruiser and if we were ROFF.  Turns out he’s a lurker from Colorado and that we’ve known each other vaguely for years. Wow.  They were in the room across from us at Abe’s and paid our party a visit later that night, contributing heavily to Warren and Arnie’s hangovers the next day.  Something about Martini’s not mixing well with whiskey, beer, and tequila but the details aren’t important.  They are nice guys and it was fun to meet up with them at the clave. The fishing was a little tougher than usual, especially on Saturday and Sunday, when there were more people and fewer risers.  Hate to tell you, Mu and Bill, but Monday was the best day.  Even on the worst days on that river you can sneak up on a big rainbow and watch it pick adult midges off the surface – deliberately, slowly, selectively.  Bob and I cast to one of these guys without a look.  The fish continued eating real bugs,  undeterred by our artificials.  At one point the fish took a midge from *between* the two dries that Bob drifted over him.  On sunday there was a fish feeding in a similar fashion and indulged me by continuing to feed as I drifted three dry patterns over his head.  First, a tiny griffith’s.  He looked at it, but only came to within an inch and didn’t open his mouth.  Next, I tried a single adult midge parachute pattern.  The fish examined it real close, but again, didn’t open it’s mouth.  Then I remembered a fly that I’d had success with before in a similar situation.  It’s a tiny Adams with no wing, just hackle, given to me by a guide a couple years ago.  As if in a dream, that fish opened his mouth, the fly slid in, and amazingly was hooked.  In all my days there, that’s never happened for me like that before. Everyone seemed to have the spot they really liked.  Charlie’s spot is the slack water at the bottom of the cable hole,  slow current and very selective risers.  That’s also RW’s favorite.   Bob and I like to fish emergers in the Upper Flats.  Willi fishes for risers near the dam with dry flies (or a two inch strip of chamois).  Warren liked the channels between the dam and cable hole.  Danl, as well as Mu and Bill, fished everywhere and with big smiles always.  I’ve never met Mu before and he’s very cool, energetic and friendly.  It’s been said about flyrods on ROFF before, but Mu CAN throw the whole line with little or no effort. Well, we’ll get some pictures posted somewhere soon. We think the Henry’s Fork will be the Mother of All Claves. Thanks for visiting, everyone, I had a blast. bruce h

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Question:

Just updating the info I have found out.  Martin is now owned by Zebco (ARGH!) and they *DO NOT* allow the purchase of the top half of a rod to replace a broken one…. I guess I’ll just be buying another top guide instead…  : (

        Damn alter ego…  : ) Paul

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The 1999 address I get is: Martin PO Box 270 Tulsa, OK  74101 918/ 836-3542 Sales manager:  Ray More

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I went fishing the other day and I broke the tip off my new fly rod. Anyone here who has done it knows how close it can make you come to weeping…  While I could just pop another tip ferrule (?) on there I wanted to have the rod perform exactly like it has in the past.  It is a Martin Classic graphite rod and it broke in two places; just above and just beneath the second eye.  I want to find out if the company might be able to send a replacement top section of the rod. Previously on this group someone mentioned that St. Croix (I think) sells rods with lifetime warrenties and  would provides replacements for for $5 per accident.  I bought mine at a going out of business sale so It did not have the warrenty card attached when I bought it. Therefore I don’t know whether they have some kind of arrangement for this.    I would really appreciate the snail mail address, their web page URL, email address, and phone number.    Could someone give me this information as I have had no luck finding it in seach engines on the Web.      I have thought that they might be a subdivsion of a larger company and that might have foiled my attempts to find them as well. If this is the case could you also tell me who they are associated with?                            Thanks in advance!                                 Paul Porter

Just updating the info I have found out.  Martin is now owned by Zebco (ARGH!) and they *DO NOT* allow the purchase of the top half of a rod to replace a broken one…. I guess I’ll just be buying another top guide instead…  : ( Paul

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Martin is not Martin anymore. It’s owned by someone else. I’m not sure who.

Does anyone know??  Help a fellow angler out people! Paul  

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Martin is not Martin anymore. It’s owned by someone else. I’m not sure who. Good Luck! Joel Axelrad

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Does anyone know??  Help a fellow angler out people!

try Martin Reel Company, 30 E Main ST PO Box Drawer 8 ,Mohawk, NY 13407, USA, 918-831-6857 not sure if it’s still good.

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I went fishing the other day and I broke the tip off my new fly rod. Anyone here who has done it knows how close it can make you come to weeping…  While I could just pop another tip ferrule (?) on there I wanted to have the rod perform exactly like it has in the past.  It is a Martin Classic graphite rod and it broke in two places; just above and just beneath the second eye.  I want to find out if the company might be able to send a replacement top section of the rod. Previously on this group someone mentioned that St. Croix (I think) sells rods with lifetime warrenties and  would provides replacements for for $5 per accident.  I bought mine at a going out of business sale so It did not have the warrenty card attached when I bought it. Therefore I don’t know whether they have some kind of arrangement for this.         I would really appreciate the snail mail address, their web page URL, email address, and phone number.    Could someone give me this information as I have had no luck finding it in seach engines on the Web.           I have thought that they might be a subdivsion of a larger company and that might have foiled my attempts to find them as well. If this is the case could you also tell me who they are associated with?                                 Thanks in advance!                                      Paul Porter

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Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.

I agree, but I wasn’t talking about you.  :-) I went back and found out who it was, it was "Mr G", Here’s the excerpt: "The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.  " Now, do you believe that "the flow of [Tim's] persona" wins any moment of any thread?  He’s usually the first one in there swearing and cursing and spitting foul words. Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG)

None taken nor given. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words?     What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started     because Tim had to resort to swearing.             – Ken     —     Not speaking for anyone but myself       No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the   "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all   the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is   bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who   doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too   much drugs.  :-)

Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you. Pentium inside eh? -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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    I     Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? Blah Blah Blah, ENOUGH.  Prove that you know how to read by going back and re-examining Mr G’s (aka the Professional Sportsman) post. THEN take enough time to let it sink in that your first interpretation of his post is about 180 degrees out and that you’ve been arguing against someone who clearly agrees with you.

If so, I’m wrong.  Please read what I first wrote (what I’ve left unsnipped above). I asked him for clarification about what he wrote. Note the question marks…I’ll stop now so that I don’t turn and begin to spit foul words.  :-) GRRR,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

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: No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the : "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all : the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is : bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who : doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too : much drugs.  :-) Sheesh Ken, read the post again.  By overlooking the actual message Gherke’s post, you are propogating an attitude.  He did not say what you claim he said.

I stand corrected.  I DID ask for a clarification, but then the thread wandered and I forgot the starting point.  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them. Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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  There are just too many posts to try to keep up on all of them.            - Ken

How about adopting the sensible policy of only replying to the threads that you _do_ "keep up on".  Failing that, how about warning readers when you are replying to an article you have not read or thought about… cheers,         -tony — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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Tim I don’t see how it is possible to "moderate" the group except by general consensus, ie. if someone oversteps the mark then the group excludes them to the extent that they give up and go elsewhere. If someone feels strongly enough to post a "fuck off" then OK, as long as it isn’t gratuitous. If you are insistent on creating a FAQ, (I don’t really consider it necessary, personally), then keep it to "frequently asked questions", why try and have rules that are unenforceable? General consensus will suffice. Personally, I still have reservations about Mr. Winters’ continued involvement with the group, time will tell if I am on my own on this one but, in my opinion, some valuable members have left as a result of his continued presence and this irks me. Maybe a few less Brits would suit some members of the group? Your apparent new found "sycophancy" worries me almost as much as the original "misdemeanours"! — Regards Peter (Please also reply by email, my server "loses" posts. Remove nospam to email) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel…

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Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded)

Even more fundamental question, who decides what is "un-gentlemenly"? There are many ways to be vulgar and offensive without swearing. Is it okay to say: "F*ck off" "BS" "Bite me" "Bite my rod" I have not used an "offensive" word in the list above, the meaning is still there. If we say that none of these is acceptable, who is going to enforce it.  You say you will leave if this group becomes moderated, but short of moderation this decision is unenforceable. Let me try to put this in terms you will understand since I hear that you are a programmer.  You have coding style requirements. With the requirements alone, nothing changes, with moderate enforcement you get some change, but mostly only after the enforcement has happened upon your unfortunate soul, or you have heavy enforcement where if you don’t code properly your code doesn’t compile and won’t work until you fix the error. If you want "posting" standards the same will occur.  Write down a list of rules and don’t enforce and it means nothing. Enforce heavily and it will work, but you will have a moderator sitting there saying yah or nay to every post. Is this what you want?  I’m not in favor of moderation, but this is an academic exercise if you think writing down rules will change anything. or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected)

This is status quo. I think the only way to "change" things is through individual policing. Think about how you personally are responding and whether or not you want to be seen the way your post makes you look.  There will always be abusive people on usenet, it’s your decision about how to respond to them.  For example, if someone, oh let’s see, calls someone a "fucking moron" you can respond in kind and get in a name-calling contest or ignore the post, or just snip out the line and continue with a semi-constructive argument.  It may not change the abusive poster, but at least things won’t turn into a complete brawl and you won’t be acting like a 2nd grader. I don’t know if this helped or not, but at least it made me feel slightly better (CRAPPY weekend). Later,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

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Umm…. ..are we gonna forget the charter and FAQ whilst everyone keeps pissing and moaning about Mr. G and what Tim REALLY meant and the rest of this Blah, Blah? I thought the "group" was serious about trying to get on track? Why don’t the limited number of you that want to continue griping about all the side issues find a chatroom to meet in and hammer this out between yourselves???

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Let’s assume this FAQ TOC for starters… Fundamental Question before we start, I hope everyone checks in with an opinion on this fundamental tenet. Will the FAQ be building a different ROFF, i.e. "The Gentlemen’s Flyfishing Club"… (eg. "Fuck Off" – Excluded) or Will the FAQ acknowledge ROFF for what it is and provide complete protection for freedom of speech and expression thereof as far as it pertains to flyfishing ? (eg. "Fuck Off" – Protected) — To Max.  I hope that you’re still there. Further I hope you will follow up to this question and help us sort out what ROFF is so that what has happened to us will not happen to others.   The way I am viewing all of this [on this glorious Colorado morning] is that since we have no rules (written or otherwise) governing this newsgroup, than nobody could have possibily violated anything. — TimW – Halfordian Golfer Guilt replaced the creel… ROFF Charter  Purpose of NG  Goals of NG  Rules for posting to NG  Profanity  Selling  Attachments  When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s  Equipment  Rods and Reels  Float Devices  Nets  Vests  Lines  Leaders  Accessories  Clothing  Rain Gear  Hats  Waders/Boots  Guides  Tipping  Personal Experience Stories  Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs  Regular Frequent Posters  Known Commercial Posters  Known Frequently Medicated Posters

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<nice post "Any fish bite if you got good bait… I’m a going fishin’ too".<g — Charlie…

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Nice to see you back.  I still do not agree with most of what you say though. Chris Brown – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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<MERCILESS CHOP    The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track <MERCILESS CHOP   Hey, isn’t that what the investigator joker said too?  Anyway, I   can’t imagine what the hell this "back on track" acually means.  It   always was a bunch of us jackass fishers talking amongst ourselves about   whaterver we please and it always will be.   My observations of these groups (since their conception) is that for   every person who takes them (too) seriously, there are a thousand (and   climbing daily) who don’t.  If anyone wants to get with a group of   folks that are all as serious as they are should get into a   listserv – I’ll be happy to explain via email what this means.   FAQ’s for these groups are a great concept, but a waste of time.   99.44% of the time the only people aware of the FAQ are people who   don’t need it – and FAQ’s certainly don’t squelch the repetitive   discussions. cheers,   -tgades — Tony Gades. Seattle, WA.  USA http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades http://weber.u.washington.edu/~tgades/Fishing/fish_page.html NOTICE: DO NOT ADD MY NAME TO _ANY_ MAILING LISTS.  

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Q:  What’s the difference between Tim Walker’s head and a buttplug? A:  The buttplug comes out once in a while. Sorry, just had to complete the symmetry. I’ll help out on the FAQ, but someone, really anyone, has to set out a real and complete first draft of a Table of Contents.  It won’t be the final one and it won’t be right, but it will give a starting point.  I could suggest a list of 10 or so names for this job, but you guys probably know who you are.  Any volunteers?  We can’t really start without it. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ?

No offense, and with all due respect, it’s you. Swearing at people who don’t agree with you, calling people names when they don’t agree with you, doing whatever pleases you to someone who doesn’t agree with you is what makes this newsgroup so violent. If you REALLY are trying to turn over a new leaf then I’m willing to let bygones be bygones, but if you think that simply making a FAQ is going to change anything by itself you are far too optimistic. So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson.

Hey, give credit where credit is due, it was my pool.  :-) Although NOBODY was guessing this soon, you usually wait at least a couple of weeks. The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future.

<honest question Maybe you can define what a "better" ROFF looks like. – No political rants? – No ethical rants? – No swearing? – No name-calling? Unless you do some or all of those, what will change? </honest question Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ?

Sure, I’ll be happy to start over, again it’s mostly up to you though.  Your first swearing rant over someone C&R-ing a fish and we’ll be right back where we started. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization..

The general info part of a FAQ is certainly a good idea.  I question the ability of a FAQ to regulate etiquette or to make a difference in the "endless threads".  The problem is that veterans already know the info and those who need the info rarely read FAQs. I would be willing to help with a general info section, but the other sections are basically futile in the chaotic USENet. Tell you what, if you can get an agreement on what a "better" ROFF looks like I’ll reconsider. I think you are underestimating the variety of viewpoints people have here. Good Luck,      - Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

_____ Well Tim, I know nothing about this person Max that is supposed to be a rascal, but your arguments are of a reasonable man.  Of course, personally, I like most of the men in this group.  The only reason why there aren’t more ladies involved here is because . . . and then it ceases to be interesting regarding "attention spans and talking fishing?" Not important issue right now.  But I accept your reasoning. My displeasure regards the pure, foul mouthing being allowed to permeate into this group.  It just isn’t right. I can imagine (bear with me) of your story about the fellow that taught you a lot astream recently Tim.  Let us all try and imagine therefore; the following. There is this sage looking gentleman with a pipe, tying on another fly as this kid watch in great admiration his skill in catching trout with such a long, graceful looking wand.  So the child walks up to the man and from behind him as his back is turned to the bank, he says, "Hey Mr.? Whatcha doing?" The gentleman turns around slowly with raised gray brows and smiles a strange sort of smile and says . . . "Get lost, punk." As the king said to Mozart, "You argue Mozart, but you fail to persuade."  Swearing is a lot like that, whereas, your arguments persuade because your logic and research is based on reason.  When the man turned and said, "Get lost, punk" (a form of swearing that will affect that child for the rest of his life regarding fly fishing, possibly) instead of, "Why hello, young man.  How are you today?  You ever fly fish?" is what the flow of your persona as a gentleman/fly fisherman wins the moment of your thread and all those who swore and cursed and spit foul words before you, today, lost.

Response:

<lot of good stuff snipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW

tim…you ‘da man…. ;^) btw…"SECRET" flies in the mail come tuesday, just finished tying another batch of ‘em. -walt

Response:

tim…you ‘da man…. ;^)

Yeah! — Bill

Response:

ROFF Charter         Purpose of NG         Goals of NG         Rules for posting to NG                 Profanity                 Selling                 Attachments                 When to respond to Writer rather than Group FAQ’s         Equipment                 Rods and Reels                 Float Devices                 Nets                 Vests                 Lines                 Leaders                 Accessories         Clothing                 Rain Gear                 Hats                 Waders/Boots         Guides                 Tipping                 Personal Experience Stories         Tying (see ROFFT) PERSONAL BIOs         Regular Frequent Posters         Known Commercial Posters         Known Frequently Medicated Posters

Response:

Good start!  I’ve added a suggestion or two below.

: ROFF Charter :       Purpose of NG :       Goals of NG :       Rules for posting to NG :               Profanity :               Selling :               Attachments :               When to respond to Writer rather than Group : FAQ’s :       Equipment :               Rods and Reels :               Float Devices :               Nets :               Vests :               Lines :               Leaders :               Accessories :       Clothing :               Rain Gear :               Hats :               Waders/Boots :       Guides :               Tipping :               Personal Experience Stories :       Tying (see ROFFT)         General                Why are they picking on Orvis?                What do they have against Jeep Grand Cherokees?                Who is Brian Keith? : PERSONAL BIOs :       Regular Frequent Posters :       Known Commercial Posters :       Known Frequently Medicated Posters :       — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire. Lighten up….. –Walt

Response:

I Are you saying that Tim doesn’t swear and curse and spit foul words? What newsgroup have you been reading?  This whole episode started because Tim had to resort to swearing.     – Ken — Not speaking for anyone but myself Ken, It seems to me that you are deliberately continuing to try and fuel this smoldering fire.

No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-) Lighten up…..

Nah, I’m always too light, maybe if I called someone an imbecilic dweeb I could get in on the really good fights.  :-) Later,      - Ken P.S.  No hard feelings, I noted the smiley and please note mine in return. — Not speaking for anyone but myself

Response:

No, I just can’t stand the thought that someone actuallythinks that Tim’s the "gentleman" in this group.  To say that all the swearing and cursing and foul words in this newsgroup is bad and then to hold up Tim as an example of a person who doesn’t do these thing….ARGH!!!  Somebody’s been doin’ too much drugs.  :-)

Hi Ken, You’ve got it all wrong! I called Tim a gentleman in another thread, although it was to do with the same subject. I never said he was *the* gentleman in the NG, but *a* gentleman for forgiving Max for what everyone else would have seen him hung drawn and quartered.  Tim has given out a lot of flack and certainly has taken some, not the least from you and J.P. He’s no angel but he is a GENTLEMAN for turning a blind eye to all Max has done.  I’ve no doubt some of Tim’s comments in the future will be succinct, curt, bombastic, witty, even vitriolic, but always well founded on solid principle. Can you match up to such a guy in eloquence and character? Written with no malice aforethought (a novelty for this NG) Regards, — Bill

Response:

I am disturbed by these recent events. Restless.  Sleepless.  Bothered. What is it about flyfishing that creates such unbridled passion ? About this damned newsgroup ? IMHO – Max Whittington is, I am certain (now more than ever) a good man who made an honest mistake.  Lord knows, I have.   Moreover he made a mistake about something he is passionate about.  Lord knows, I have done that too.  Have you ? I have read carefully every post has made here and I see something different than what has been revealed by these events. First off he is helpful to the beginner.  Cordial and a gentleman.  Sincere.  He is also a hell of an investigator <g, this might be useful when the REAL loons come around <g. We can not all get mad and quit when something bad happens and I am not setting any example.  I am very sorry for that.  If we all acted like this…then there were none. —- Like the constant upstream migration of an emerging insect, with all of the odds against it, we *must* press upstream and solve this problem…. —- So, Jimbo – Whomever had May 22 on the Skeeter returns pool, gets the warm Molson. I can not leave the group like this.  It sucks.  It’s mean spirited and hurting.  And it is only Qayaniskatsi – Life out of balance. I do not sense mean hearts among us, anywhere, do you ? —- I have 2 serious issues.  Please bear with me The GOAL of this rather longish post is to help to get ROFF back on track and with high hopes of a much better ROFF for all of us in the very near future. —- First off…everyone…please go to www.dejanews.com and read the stuff Max posts.  He’s a good Joe, IMO (not that MY opinion is worth a ratty waterlogged adams). It is true that I felt violated by the background check and the email to my employer, but he woke my eyes up in a huge way. It may NOT be safe to have an unchecked opinion in cyberspace.  You too might want to consider this.  I am hoping to find out just what in the world is out there easily for people to find and I intend to ask Max to help me. Friends… You take the bad with the good, but you look for the good… …and I see a hell of a lot of it in that man. I challenge you to read *all* of his posts and not agree. I know (feel) that something positive is coming out of this and in the end I predict that not only will Max be a good friend to a lot of us, but that ROFF will be better, stronger and more organized place to deal with the hectic, eclectic and sometimes strange internet demands placed upon it. — Let’s use this as an opportunity to grow.  Individually, collectively… — That was my first serious issue and I am serious. Can we forgive and forget by remembering [who we are]…Royal Order of the Brothers of the Bugchuckers… Number two will just be ‘#2′  <g if we can not. Clean slate ?    Any AYE’S ? Part 2. RFD: A NEW FAQ For Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly Request for Discussion… We need a new FAQ for ROFF.  It is high time.   I believe that none of this would have happened if we had one and will take at some of the heat if for this alone. I’ve been around long enough that it’s at least partly my laziness that we don’t have the damned thing done yet ! John Ferriera, where are you ? Consider this…. The C&R thread has been active for at least 7-8 years ?  It has started/ended/mutated so many times that it’s *amazing*.  This can *only* speak to its relevence of it as a valid subject in our sport, or at least to a buncha people here as it relates to our sport (I am in this group that feels that it needs discussing). That, however, is *not* the point (only an example)…please view it only as such. The point is, is that it is maddening to have to justify its (the threads) existence over and over and over, like some of us have had to.  Why should I feel guilty discussing C&R ad infinitum around here ?  (or cussing or swearing…).  We have been around and around on this and I have a solid proposal. To use Max’s example: Assume that this is a club, only its like no other club in the world.  We have no limitations on membership. No education requirements or dress code.  We have no choice in the matter, really, unless we moderate the group, because this group exists in the Universe of the internet we must treat it as a subset of this Universe.   If the group becomes moderated, well…that’s fine…but then please point me to the unmoderated one. The FAQ *WILL* give credence to and justify these ongoing threads so that they will not be the targets of trivialization or condemnation.  Moreover the FAQ will set the rules of fair play in ROFF that we will all have to agree to, or move on. Certain things will be covered in the FAQ, such as "Opinions on Floatants". Hopefully, this will grow with relevent information and all of the info, such as Albolene, secret formulas and the history of George Gehrke and his product on can get thoroughly and objectively covered there once. Instead of saying "This group sucks…can we change it ?", We could say…"Uh…this part of the FAQ sucks, can we change it …?". Thus I propose a *MEMBER DETERMINED* FAQ having a "table of contents" something like: "FAQ – Rec.Outdoors.Fishing.Fly" What the FAQ ? <g (i.e. Why…? Anecdotal, but real…) Hierarchy Etiquette ?  (Recommend None. <G) Rules governing SPAM Common Questions (Equipment, Setup, Places to go) Endless Threads 1. C&R Basic Position – [Ralph or delegates Can write ?] 2. C&K Basic position – [Jon Cook or ??? can write ?] Frequent Posters Personal BIO’S Moe Skeeter – Pigheaded Buttmunch C&K homebrewer….(We’d write our own) Fishing Links etc. Do you see where this could go ? Do you see how this could be useful and prevent any hard feelings in the future ? How a newbie can get answered immediately ? Links and info and organization.. IOW – Shouldn’t we get our collective shit together a little ? Vroman hates me for a very similar misunderstanding…we simply don’t agree on what ROFF is, but how can either of us be right if NOBODY knows what ROFF is ? By end of summer…let’s say…we all agree on what ROFF is…DEAL ? It’s something to consider…. Max, I hope you’re still with us ? Comments ? Peace. No hard feelings…. I hope everyone has a wonderful Memorial day weekend. I have a couple people in mind that I’ll need to remember hard this year…. You get a line…I’ll get a pole…Honey. You get a line…I’ll get a pole….bay-beee… You get a line…I’ll get a pole, We’ll go down to the crawdad hole. Honey, Bay- be mine…. Your pal, — TimW What is ROFF ?

Response:

Question:

As a keen fly fisherman in the UK my knowledge of US river’s is very limited. I have been offered the chance to join a trip to North Conway in New Hampshire sometime around June ‘98. The only river that I know to be close by is the Saco. Can anyone tell me :- Is there any trout in it and can they be caught? How is it best fished? What sort of tackle is required? Is there any other water’s (river or lake) near to N. Conway that are fished using the fly? Is there any other advise anyone can give me? Thanks in advance for any help. — Steve Patrick

Response:

As a keen fly fisherman in the UK my knowledge of US river’s is very limited. I have been offered the chance to join a trip to North Conway in New Hampshire sometime around June ‘98. The only river that I know to be close by is the Saco. Can anyone tell me :- Is there any trout in it and can they be caught?

Depends on your skills… How is it best fished?

A flyrod is the most effective way to do this. What sort of tackle is required?

Depending on the water, but I would take a 3wt and a 5 or 6 wt. Is there any other water’s (river or lake) near to N. Conway that are fished using the fly?

You are in the beautiful White Mountain area with nearly thousands of streams, lakes, and ponds in one of the most beautiful areas of New Hampshire. Go to the flyshop in North Conway and ask the guys there, they can tell you where to go best and what hatches you can expect at that time of the year (they usually list the most popular rivers with their hatches on a board outside the store and will be pleased to tell you more if you buy a couple flies etc out of courtesy, the guys are very nice- I think they also guide). Within 30 min drive you find several nice ponds in the Frankonia Notch area, it’s good to have a belly boat there and you can catch beautiful brookies. South of where you are located you can find the Bearcamp which is a beauty that holds Brookes, Brows, and Rainbows. If you are driving up from Boston make shure you stop at the Merrimack (look for salmon) and the Neufound river (can’t remember the exit, but it’s right from I93- salmon and hugh trout) and very close to the White Mountains. Otherwise, stop at the Ranger station, they can give you tips for remote hike-in ponds, there is a National Forest Map with all the ponds in it, including some fly fishing only ponds. Amonoosuc River (sp?) at Twin Mountains is also a pretty place that holds big rainbows. Don’t forget the C&R stretch of the Ellis River. If you have more questions, just mail back. Thomas Is there any other advise anyone can give me? Thanks in advance for any help. — Steve Patrick

– Thomas Urbig

Response:

Question:

Just so you know, seminar fees are only $385; fishing and hunting portions of the trip are not deductible. With outfitters,lodges,speakers, materials to be paid, it is no more profitable than than any other legitimate business. Basically, it’s the same kind of deduction any business or profession can take for business-related expenses and available to just about anyone in any profession or business who qualifies. Requirements are tight -nobody is being taken advantage of.

Response:

: Just so you know, seminar fees are only $385; fishing and hunting portions : of the trip are not deductible. With outfitters,lodges,speakers, : materials to be paid, it is no more profitable than than any other : legitimate business. Basically, it’s the same kind of deduction any : business or profession can take for business-related expenses and : available to just about anyone in any profession or business who : qualifies. Requirements are tight -nobody is being taken advantage of. Don’t try and doubletalk the good folks.  Travel and accomodations are tax deductible.  Fishing and hunting guide fees are probably not deductible.   (At least that is what a tax professional told me when I asked about some work related deducaitons.)  You didn’t address the objections raised about posting here.  Many of us would prefer blatant commercial posts with no content not be posted here. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher   –   http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Assistant professor of chemistry  |  That’s Idaho, not Iowa.    | ad hominem University of Idaho               |  Upper Left Hand Corner.    | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343             |  No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem

Response:

Don’t try and doubletalk the good folks.  Travel and accomodations are tax deductible.  Fishing and hunting guide fees are probably not deductible. (At least that is what a tax professional told me when I asked about some work related deducaitons.)  You didn’t address the objections raised about posting here.  Many of us would prefer blatant commercial posts with no content not be posted here. –Rick

I agree with you regarding the posting of this sort of commercial add.   Regarding travel and accomodations:  these expenses are deductable only if the primary purpose for which they were incurred relates to the educational seminar.  In other words, one cannot take a one day seminar in Montana, followed by 4 days of fly fishing and then write off the all of the travel and expenses.  I believe most of this topic is covered in 26 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) Sec. 1.162-5 Expenses for education. A few examples from 26 CFR Sec 1.162-5 are set forth below, enjoy:     "Example (1). A, a self-employed tax practitioner, decides to take     a 1-week course in new developments in taxation, which is offered     in City X, 500 miles away from his home.  His primary purpose in     going to X is to take the course, but he also takes a side trip to     City Y (50 miles from X) for 1 day, takes a sightseeing trip while     in X, and entertains some personal friends.  A’s transportation     expenses to City X and return to his home are deductible but his     transportation expenses to City Y are not deductible.  A’s expenses     for meals and lodging while away from home will be allocated     between his educational pursuits and his personal activities.     Those expenses which are entirely personal, such as sightseeing and     entertaining friends, are not deductible to any extent.       Example (2). The facts are the same as in example (1) except that     A’s primary purpose in going to City X is to take a vacation.  This     purpose is indicated by several factors, one of which is the fact     that he spends only 1 week attending the tax course and devotes 5     weeks entirely to personal activities.  None of A’s transportation     expenses are deductible and his expenses for meals and lodging     while away from home are not deductible to the extent attributable     to personal activities.  His expenses for meals and lodging     allocable to the week attending the tax course are, however,     deductible.       Example (3). B, a high school mathematics teacher in New York     City, in the summertime travels to a university in California in     order to take a mathematics course the expense of which is     deductible under this section.  B pursues only one-fourth of a full     course of study and the remainder of her time is devoted to     personal activities the expense of which is not deductible.  Absent     a showing by B of a substantial nonpersonal reason for taking the     course in the university in California, the trip is considered     taken primarily for personal reasons and the cost of traveling from     New York City to California and return would not be deductible.     However, one-fourth of the cost of B’s meals and lodging while     attending the university in California may be considered properly     allocable to deductible educational pursuits and, therefore, is     deductible." If you realy want to see the rest of this code section, let me know. Andy

Response:

Andy What if you "attend" a meeting for 30 minutes each day and have the rest of the day off? Each day would be a training day! DB

Caveat;  I’m no tax attorney, but I’ll give my two cents. The regs require that the primary purpose of the travel, lodging, etc. be for the educational seminar before the costs can be deducted.  Were I the IRS agent (not an enviable position), I would have to conclude that the primary purpose of a trip composed of 30 mins of educational seminar per day, followed by as many hours as one can fit in the rest of the day for fishing, would be fishing not professional education. Accordingly, travel, lodging, etc. expenses would not be deductible.  Maybe you would be allowed to prorate the expense, however.  That is, deduct expense in proportion to time spent on legit pursuits.  Well, legit according to the IRS, anyway. Exactly how much time you must spend in seminars per dya to make all expenses deductible, I don’t know.  I imagine that would be evalauted on a case-by-case basis. Andy

Response:

Question:

My wife and I are considering a summer vacation in the Keys and are interested in learning to fly fish.  I am soliciting information regarding fly fishing schools/camps that accommodate beginners (though I have been fishing for over 20 years (spinning)).  Any reco’s appreciated! TIA, Brian

Response:

OK, ypu asked for it!!!….lol……. First I wouldn t go to the Key in the Simmertime…the heat is unbelieveable.. So, I suggest the Orvis School in Vermont….;or, the L L Bean School in Maine!!! However, here are some good dites in  the Keys; http://fla-keys.com:80/fishing/about.htm Flyfishing Keys http://fla-keys.com:80/fishing/index.htm Flyfishing Keys http://Florida-Keys.info-access.com:80/ here or the others: http://www.L L Bean.com http://www.alloutdoors.com/orvis/ My wife and I are considering a summer vacation in the Keys and are   interested in learning to fly fish.  I am soliciting information   regarding fly fishing schools/camps that accommodate beginners (though I   have been fishing for over 20 years (spinning)).  Any reco’s appreciated! TIA, Brian

E.mail Options:

Response:

Question:

I have always found that Green Weenies are successful.  at least by accident when I am fishing for trout.     Bob

Response:

        I would like to know if carp will take a fly?  If so,  which fly(s) seem to work?

Response:

Any fly will catch carp . . . provided it’s lashed to the front end of a bow fishing rig 8^) Cheers, Eric — Dept. of Biol. Sci.           415/723-4365 (w) Stanford University           415/969-2379 (h) Stanford, CA 94305 "If I ain’t studyin’ ‘em, I wanna be catchin’ em."

Response:

   I would like to know if carp will take a fly?  If so,  which fly(s) seem to work?

FWIW, the other day I caught a carp on a hopper pattern. — John Kleist                          | Fort Collins, CO 80523               |

Response:

       I would like to know if carp will take a fly?  If so,  which fly(s) seem to work?

Many of the larger nymph patterns (esp. hare’s ears) will work for "mudding" carp, although strikes are brief, gentle, and very difficult to detect.  Small wooly buggers also will work. It’s worth tying in something bright that you can see under a  couple of feet of water at a decent distance; when it disappears, STRIKE. Carp also will target foods that are abundant at different times of the year, but I promise I won’t tell my mulberry fly story yet again. Tight Lines, BRAD DeVRIES

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:       I would like to know if carp will take a fly?  If so,  which : fly(s) seem to work? :       During a troutless day last Summer I saw a large fish feeding in shallow muddy water. It’s yellow belly told me it was probably a carp and being bored witless I cast a hare’s ear nymph upstream of it and let it drift by. The strike was gentle, and because I was using a brown sinking line I felt it rather than saw any indication. This fish went straight for the bottom of the fast part of the current and with my 3-wt tackle it was like heaving in an anchor. I got the feeling the fish would be happy to lie around all day with a fly in its face because it didn’t struggle, just lay there. It weighed about four pounds. Not great sport, really, and that big sucker mouth gives me the creeps. Callum

Response:

   I would like to know if carp will take a fly?  If so,  which fly(s) seem to work?

Try egg patterns like you would for steelhead or salmon. I’ve caught many on Chartruse green egg patterns and "green weenies". Don’t go below 4x tippet. It seems to be the lightest you can go and still hold most of them. Todd Seigfried

Response:

Question:

Sage blanks? Actually, you could save yourself some grief. Why? Because Sage will locate the location of the spine with removable white markings. I’ve built three SAGE rods and they all came with the spine marked out. The most difficult part is the coating. Try and get the FLEXCOAT package with syringes, cups and mixtures. There are two kinds of FLEXCOAT: one coat (thick) and several coats (thin). I’ve used the one coat and it works ok but for a more consistent finish, I would try the several coat version. Getting a slow rpm motor to turn the rod while applying the FLEXCOAT would help a great deal. If you can’t borrow one from the local flyshop, any BBQ motor will suffice. Not to worry, you’ll make a great rod! p.s. there’s a flyfishing digest on the net you could join.

Response:

I’ve used the one coat Flexcoat building many rods and I like it a lot.  In order to make it a little more workable in  a large finish area, I dilute the finish mix with a small amount of Acetone.  It is very quick to evaporate and leaves me with extra working time in laying a great finish coat on all types of rods. The only pitfall is to make sure that you don’t use too much acetone or your flexcoat will never set up correctly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sage blanks? Actually, you could save yourself some grief. Why? Because Sage will locate the location of the spine with removable white markings. I’ve built three SAGE rods and they all came with the spine marked out. The most difficult part is the coating. Try and get the FLEXCOAT package with syringes, cups and mixtures. There are two kinds of FLEXCOAT: one coat (thick) and several coats (thin). I’ve used the one coat and it works ok but for a more consistent finish, I would try the several coat version. Getting a slow rpm motor to turn the rod while applying the FLEXCOAT would help a great deal. If you can’t borrow one from the local flyshop, any BBQ motor will suffice. Not to worry, you’ll make a great rod! p.s. there’s a flyfishing digest on the net you could join.

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Question:

Apparently they do not plan to sell the blanks….. SAGE isn’t selling their newer IV blanks either I wonder if the no-blanks-available strategy will work for the manufactures? Completed SAGE IV rods are running $500.00+   My response: the SAGE III blanks are good enough.

Right, why can’t the fly rod manufacturers see that they will price themselves out of existance.  When a new generation of PC’s reach the market (i.e. 486), the previous generation is reduced in price.  But when a new generation of graphite comes out, the older type graphites do not seem to have much of a price reduction. The manufacturers feel that a whole new higher price level is justified by the new generation material.  Only fiberglass seems to have comw down in price. Mark Miller – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Thomas Gilg

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Right, why can’t the fly rod manufacturers see that they will price themselves out of existance.  When a new generation of PC’s reach the market (i.e. 486), the previous generation is reduced in price.  But when a new generation of graphite comes out, the older type graphites do not seem to have much of a price reduction.

That is because a large portion of the price of a computer is engineering costs.  These costs can be amortized over the number of machines sold. After enough machines have been sold to cover the costs of engineering, the price can be reduced. Much of the cost of a flyrod is in manufacturing costs which are fixed per unit regardless of how many rods are built.  Building a good graphite rod is labor intensive. — -Wayne Trzyna

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Right, why can’t the fly rod manufacturers see that they will price themselves out of existance.  When a new generation of PC’s reach the market (i.e. 486), the previous generation is reduced in price.  But when a new generation of graphite comes out, the older type graphites do not seem to have much of a price reduction. That is because a large portion of the price of a computer is engineering costs.  These costs can be amortized over the number of machines sold. After enough machines have been sold to cover the costs of engineering, the price can be reduced. Much of the cost of a flyrod is in manufacturing costs which are fixed per unit regardless of how many rods are built.  Building a good graphite rod is labor intensive. — -Wayne Trzyna

True, but I don’t think that building a rod using a different version of graphite would be any more labor intensive. Mark Miller

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Right, why can’t the fly rod manufacturers see that they will price themselves out of existance.  When a new generation of PC’s reach the market (i.e. 486), the previous generation is reduced in price.  But when a new generation of graphite comes out, the older type graphites do not seem to have much of a price reduction.

Did you ever visit California? This is the state where when new car’s price sky-rocketing, the cost for used cars follow up too. Eric.

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Thomas Gilg writes: I wonder if the no-blanks-available strategy will work for the manufactures? Completed SAGE IV rods are running $500.00+   My response: the SAGE III blanks are good enough.

That’s going to be my response too !   BTW its official now the new generation  Loomis rods will not be sold a blanks.  They’re beautiful rods, light and shoot line like cannons.

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Members of my local flyfishing club have had extensive problems with IMX rods breaking when dealing with Tarpon.

I don’t trust IMX or the regular Sage III  for rods above 9wt.  My ten and twelve weight rods are both the Sage three piece special designed rods for salt water a lot heaver in the butt.   Regarding rod failures, a guide I know on the Green says the outfitter he works for gets free sage & loomis rods and that they’ve had tremendous breakage.  Very thin cross sections and lots of hard use banging around in drift boats.  When the surface coating of a graphite rod gets dinged, a stress concentration forms at the already damaged point.  I’ve had good luck putting a little resin on the ding to fill the scratch.  The only rod I’ve broken to date is my favorite 5 wt Winston that I tried to use as a wading staff.  Winston shipped me a replacement but section blank and it’s still my favorite rod.

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Mark Miller writes: Right, why can’t the fly rod manufacturers see that they will price themselves out of existance.  When a new generation of PC’s reach the market (i.e. 486), the previous generation is reduced in price.  

As much as I’d like to agree with you, I can’t.  Neither Sage and Loomis can keep up with the demand.  The message from the market place is that there are plenty of people ready to pay, so I can’t blame them for using the blanks available for finished rods with a much higher margin.

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Mark Miller writes: True, but I don’t think that building a rod using a different version of graphite would be any more labor intensive.

A lot of engineering when into the latest generation of Loomis rods.

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Members of my local flyfishing club have had extensive problems with IMX rods breaking when dealing with Tarpon.

        This problem is almost always the fault of the angler and not the rod.  When you have a Tarpon close to the boat and you’re really pulling on him, people tend to pull too far back on the rod.  The angle of the rod (angle between butt and tip — 180 degrees at rest) should not be less than 90 degrees.  If you pull back farther than that you’re no longer fighting the fish you’re fighting the rod.  This puts an awful strain on the rod (and the angler).  With the rod doubled over, if the fish should make any quick movements, which tarpon definitely can do, goodbye rod.  You get the most power out of your rod at an angle of about 90 degrees — you’ll land fish quicker (no hour long boatside battles) and your rod will last a lot longer. I don’t trust IMX or the regular Sage III  for rods above 9wt.  My ten and twelve weight rods are both the Sage three piece special designed rods for salt water a lot heaver in the butt.  

        I’ve seen a 150# tarpon caught on 11wt. Sage II.  I myself caught a 100# tarpon on a 10wt Sage III. Regarding rod failures, a guide I know on the Green says the outfitter he works for gets free sage & loomis rods and that they’ve had tremendous breakage.  Very thin cross sections and lots of hard use banging around in drift boats.  When the surface coating of a graphite rod gets dinged, a stress concentration forms at the already damaged point.  I’ve had good luck putting a little resin on the ding to fill the scratch.  The only rod I’ve broken to date is my favorite 5 wt Winston that I tried to use as a wading staff.  Winston shipped me a replacement but section blank and it’s still my favorite rod.

        The surface coating of a rod is purely for casmetic reasons. I don’t think it adds much strength too the rod.  On the other hand if you scratch the graphite underneath then I would worry. — |          307 SW 16th Ave #349 G-ville, Fl 32601             | |                Voice: (904)377-3807                         | |                  Fax: (904)375-0357                         |

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Just saw the latest in Loomis rods.  A friend of built a prototype 8 wt from their new next generation graphite. I’m building an 8 wt IMX and the difference was remarkable the next generation graphite was about the same size and weight as my Winston 5 wt.  Apparently they do not plan to sell the blanks, so I probable won’t be buying one in the near future.   The wall thickness is so thin I’d be worried about the design for anything above 8 wt.  I already switch to Sage’s special design for heaver salt water rods (10 & 12 wt.’s).  I use IMX for 6 and 8 wt rods.  I love to cast the IMX 6 wt but seldom fish it, for trout I like my 3, 5 & 7 wt. Winston’s.   The seven is a dream for bass bugs.

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Apparently they do not plan to sell the blanks…..

SAGE isn’t selling their newer IV blanks either I wonder if the no-blanks-available strategy will work for the manufactures? Completed SAGE IV rods are running $500.00+   My response: the SAGE III blanks are good enough. Thomas Gilg

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The wall thickness is so thin I’d be worried about the design for anything above 8 wt.  I already switch to Sage’s special design for heaver salt water rods (10 & 12 wt.’s).  I use IMX for 6 and 8 wt rods.  I love to cast the IMX 6 wt but seldom fish it, for trout I like my 3, 5 & 7 wt. Winston’s.   The seven is a dream for bass bugs.

Members of my local flyfishing club have had extensive problems with IMX rods breaking when dealing with Tarpon. So much so that the consensus is to fish IM6 rods in this situation. I have not heard of any problems with Sage rods. An interesting side point is that a member broke a rod (Lamiglass IM700) when the clouser minnow he was casting collided with the rod. Lucky thing, these rods have replacement guarantees or there would be a ton of crying. I have broken several graphite rods for no apparent reason while casting or fishing. It appears to be caused by graphite flaws and the brittleness of the material.

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| SAGE isn’t selling their newer IV blanks either | | I wonder if the no-blanks-available strategy will work for the manufactures? | Completed SAGE IV rods are running $500.00+   My response: the SAGE III blanks | are good enough. | | Thomas Gilg | Well they probably are.  But that’s the funny thing about flyfishing equipment.  My $50.00 Cortland rods are "good enough." As far as the strategy goes I can tell you that few shops have any selection of Sage IV ’s at all.  The three or four Sage dealers I’ve talked to here in the east and a few in out west say they can’t get ‘em from Sage and when they do get a few they sell right out.   I believe it.  I know I’m crazy but I bought one anyway about a month ago — I bought the three piece 590 travel rod.   I fished it for a week on the Snake in Jackson Hole and on the Henry’s Fork.  Now I’m not a great caster (I can’t throw a whole line) but I have to say this rod is incredible.  The best I can do is to say it feels like its alive.  A very distinctive feel and I’m getting ten extra feet or more out of it.  Other rods I own include a Winston a Sage III and two Cortland’s.  If it was only distance I was after I might have been better off investing in a casting clinic but I really like the rod. Jim Caldwell Norfolk, VA

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SAGE isn’t selling their newer IV blanks either

I am told by the Sage representative in Norway that there will be available blanks of RPL IV next year. By the way, the company has not produced enough IV rods this year to cover the demand. –Terje Tveras, Univ. of Bergen, Norway

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Question:

         My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses           (you get the message) To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  

        I stand corrected, on re-reading what I had written I can see that I had      slipped out of context for a while. I think I went away from the subject      (i.e. "alternative" music) and instead lingered on the sell-out topic.         What I tried to say (not very clearly) is that these people had made a      large quantity of good music that amassed them a very large fan-base, but when       their music quality dropped to a sub-standard level their record sales        (and hence their income) stayed at a high level due to media hype.

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        Personally I think Nevermind was pretty much a sellout album, with me it hasen’t stood the test of time, or maybe it was just overplayed too much. — Richard Stride… ‘Master Myoclonis Meets Mephisto’

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[Stuff Deleted ...] To the "alternative" loser,   I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory     -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.     I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just   that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and   think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot   many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.

Same here in Canada. And I get annoyed over such interpretations of "alternative" for the same reasons.          My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,    innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent    on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with    a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.             My list of major sell-outs would include:-                  the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses

          (you get the message)

To the ones underlined (using "^"): I do not recall that they _ever_ pretended to be "alternative" at any time. They were _always_ mainstream from the outset. By this technicality and by your reasoning, they cannot be sellouts, since none of them were ever "innovative" or "dangerous" by your (and my own) criteria at any time in their carreers, in my opinion.  Sure, the Stones began their carreers with much controversy and were known as "the Bad Boys of rock and roll" and still are; but IMO, they were merely attracting attention to themselves for commercial gain and success based on the free publicity of the news media. Their "cock-rock" musical style hasn’t changed in the past 30 years, qualifying them as probably more "conservative", and less versatile, IMO, than Frank Sinatra. Same for Madonna’s "cunt-rock" style. The unchanging nature of her music kind of ranks up there with Marie Osmond. BTW, you can also add Paul Simon, and most "resurrected" ’60s rock groups, like Starship (the most extreme example), The Greatful Dead, CSN&Y, Bob Dylan, Eric Clapton (all playing it safe to a lesser extent), and Elton John (another extreme example — recall 11-17-70, Empty Sky, Yellowbrick Road & compare with ANYTHING he’s done since 1980). —

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Hiya, Could someone help me make an informed decision and post the track listing for the latest Pavement album. Thanks, E. |                                 Eric J.                                     |

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        Where the hell has anyone seen a ripped sweater for $300 for crissake!?!?  This I gotta see…js

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How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago.

wow, you were in the 10th grade in ‘83, me too.  do you remember the really bad post-punk bands of the day.  too bad i missed out on the poser bashing.  you know what’s really funny:  i still were the same clothes i did then.  then i was called a dirt-boy, now you can buy a ripped sweater for $300.  go figger. —                                   Jeff Scott

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To all the "alternative" losers,         I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.         -Joanna

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

yes!!! i posted an article to this effect a little while ago. i thought the whole idea of the mindset that this newsgroup is supposed to represent was being open to new things. lets stop bitching about who liked what groups when, and what groups have sold out because they need to make a living. lets start discussing music for what it is… music. its not grunge, its not alternative, its not rock, its not punk, and its not even disco. its fucking music. those terms are good as catagories for easier identification. kind of like male and female. that is all they are. what matters is the music. burnt

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How do you think I must feel? I’ve been listening to snotty nosed little dweebs whining about poser’s since grade 10. Ten years ago. —                                    Jeff Scott

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To all the "alternative" losers,    I have a little news for you.  You all seem to think that you are just the coolest calling bands sell-outs and making fun of all the ‘grunge’ dressers.  I’ve been sitting here reading your little arguementative articles and I think you’re all full of crap.  I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory and just because some of my favorie bands happen to have had maybe one album hit mainstream doesn’t mean that now I should change my taste in music.  It also doesn’t mean I won’t be attending Lollapalooza’s anymore.  Those were some of the best times of my life and will be for years to come (hopefully).  It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.  Maybe if you weren’t so close-minded you’d realize how stupid you really sound.  I didn’t post this to get a hostile response, only to make you think.  Really, you do sound like a bunch of losers. Sorry.    -Joanna

To the "alternative" loser,     I was listening to alternative music before it was grouped into a catagory      -Isn’t this a contradiction, surely you’ve categorised alternative music.      I can’t speak for people in America, but in England "alternative" music is just    that – an alternative. It’s not a type of music, you don’t listen to a song and    think "Oh yeah, that’s alternative". It’s a category into which you can slot    many types, styles and fashions – i.e. Punk, Metal, Grunge, crusty, indie etc, etc.          What it’s an alternative to is the "mainstream". This is nothing more than     an enourmous financial institution providing financial security and massive     wealth to many "rock stars". Corporate back-handers ensure radio and TV play     to boring, and safe music makers. These bands are of course not all guilty     many just using the extra spending powers to produce better music (mostly former     indie bands who have signed to majors).           My view on people who have sold out is someone who used to make good,     innovative, sometimes dangerous music who signed to a major and now seem intent     on making enourmous amounts of money playing dull, uninteresting music made with     a safe formula and relying on media hype to boost their income.              My list of major sell-outs would include:-                   the Rolling Stones, Genesis, M.Jackson, Miss Madonna, Guns ‘n’ Roses            (you get the message)            Bands who I think are getting dangerously close to sell-out time                    (their records are getting more and more boring):-                            U2, REM, and Simple Minds         There are countless bands I could add, but I’m not going to (so there).             I don’t think people can be critical of Nirvana yet as they haven’t        released any new material, everything they’ve released since Nevermind was        recorded before Nevermind. They could go on to write better songs      (like Mettalica have) they could progress back to their old (and less popular)   style which is more likely or they could come up with some absolute bollocks.                 Time will tell.           Meanwhile people’s opinion will come and go, birds will fly, fish will swim       and polar bears will do whatever it is polar bears do.          So my dear Joanna, let people say what they want, insults breed nothing but contempt and statements like,             It really turns my stomach to read about your opinions.          Don’t say much for freedom of speech, do they.                       Bye,                         Rob

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