says… <snip TL MC ( asking for a friend!).
Any Dick or Willie will do? Running & ducking, Herman
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had been getting spammed with about 65-75 junk emails per day. I tried to unsubscribe from their lists but that seemed to only waste my time and increase the amount of spam. So this week I have been using the program called "MailWasher." Download it from CNET or mailwasher.net. It is free, you can check the headers on your email server before downloading it, and you can mark emails to be bounced back to the sender. Clicking the Bounce box on a message sends a fake "address not found" message to the address that the message originated from. This reduces the possibility of more spam e-mail coming from this address. I am down to about 10-15 spams per day.
Thanks, Dave. I downloaded this and have it in place. Remarkably easy to install and use. Almost as soon as I was done, I received mail from a spammer. Tim c’mon, spam me NOW sukkas
Anybody else being spammed per e-mail with this? You have been selected to receive this email because of your interest in fly tying or fly fishing. Flytiers.com is one of the most extensive online stores ( Rest snipped). Just wondering. TL MC
says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anybody else being spammed per e-mail with this? You have been selected to receive this email because of your interest in fly tying or fly fishing. Flytiers.com is one of the most extensive online stores ( Rest snipped). Just wondering. TL MC Got it! Makes You feel like one of the chosen few, doesn
I am in the market for a trailerable boat in the 22-26 foot range to be used in the ocean around the Channel Islands to mostly cruise and dive from. I don’t really do that much fishing but would use it do dive but also be comfortable to sleep preferably up to 4 people. I have always liked the Skipjacks and heard they are good in the ocean and enjoy the fly bridge. I am looking for a good solid sea-worthy craft. Single engine or double, im open on that. Would love to take it someday up to the inner waterways up North of Washington and do a nice trip that way. Any recommendations on makes and models would be greatly appreciated. James
Expensive, but nice. Davis Boats in Morro Bay. Rock Harbor 36. Bill
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am in the market for a trailerable boat in the 22-26 foot range to be used in the ocean around the Channel Islands to mostly cruise and dive from. I don’t really do that much fishing but would use it do dive but also be comfortable to sleep preferably up to 4 people. I have always liked the Skipjacks and heard they are good in the ocean and enjoy the fly bridge. I am looking for a good solid sea-worthy craft. Single engine or double, im open on that. Would love to take it someday up to the inner waterways up North of Washington and do a nice trip that way. Any recommendations on makes and models would be greatly appreciated. James
OOPs Make that the Rock Harbor 25. Bad fingers. Bill
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Expensive, but nice. Davis Boats in Morro Bay. Rock Harbor 36. Bill I am in the market for a trailerable boat in the 22-26 foot range to be used in the ocean around the Channel Islands to mostly cruise and dive from. I don’t really do that much fishing but would use it do dive but also be comfortable to sleep preferably up to 4 people. I have always liked the Skipjacks and heard they are good in the ocean and enjoy the fly bridge. I am looking for a good solid sea-worthy craft. Single engine or double, im open on that. Would love to take it someday up to the inner waterways up North of Washington and do a nice trip that way. Any recommendations on makes and models would be greatly appreciated. James
Anyone know websites where good examples of a wide range of Tyed Flies can be found? One with good color pictures would be great to see the nuances of a well-tyed fly.
To : Keith Harkins Take a look at www.popularfishingflies.com More pictures will be added soon, over 470 different pattern. All high quality flies tied on Mustad quality hooks . One of The Best Prices on the Net. Regards Popular Fishing Flies Robert Lindberg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone know websites where good examples of a wide range of Tyed Flies can be found? One with good color pictures would be great to see the nuances of a well-tyed fly.
A friend of mine gave me a BlackBeauty fishing pole by South Bend). It’s a collapsible graphite fishing POLE (10ft). I plan to let my two small kids (age 6 & 3) use it to fish for bream (bluegills) on a small pond (I will assist). My questions are: 1) What type of line should I use (4lb mono, braid nylon, etc)? 2) How long should the line be? 3) What kind of lures can I use (dry flies,wet, poppers,worms)? If dry flies, will the 4lb mono & the fly both float? 4) How do I cast it? Do I just flip it or shoot it like a slingshot? Thanks, Jimmy Jimmy D. Geek Remove the "NOJUNKMAIL." to send me email
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A friend of mine gave me a BlackBeauty fishing pole by South Bend). It’s a collapsible graphite fishing POLE (10ft). I plan to let my two small kids (age 6 & 3) use it to fish for bream (bluegills) on a small pond (I will assist). My questions are: 1) What type of line should I use (4lb mono, braid nylon, etc)? 2) How long should the line be? 3) What kind of lures can I use (dry flies,wet, poppers,worms)? If dry flies, will the 4lb mono & the fly both float? 4) How do I cast it? Do I just flip it or shoot it like a slingshot?
For best results, tie about 7 or 8 feet of 4 to 6 lb. line on and put a small bobber about a foot from the end. Put on a #4 or 6 light wire hook and a split shot sinker a couple of inches above the hook. Use worms, crickets or whatever is available, even a small piece of bologna will work for bream, and let the kids master the simple method first. Then as they get older, you can introduce them to fly fishing . To cast it, just hold the rod up high and swing the line out like a pendelum and drop it in the water. Mark http://members.aol.com/swaters1/index.html
says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone have information about fishing in Huatulco/Puerto Escondido, Mexico area? I am planning a trip for mid august, but the only problem is, with less then a month left, I still have no idea what to expect. I will only be able to bring a 7/8 weight, and I will probably fish the bays in Huatulco and Puerto Angel….any other hot spots in the area???? I need to know what kind of fish are availible to me, and of course what flies (specific patterns?) or type of flies (shrimp? baitfish?) and what sizes i should tie them in….also handy would be possibly guide recommendations and leader strengths? Actually, any information at all would be great! I just need all the help I can get! Anyway, if you have any ideas, please either email me OR reply to this message! Thanks in advance, Scott
Sorry to confuse people, i meant Huatulco/Puerto Escondido of the Oaxaca, Mexico area.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone have information about fishing in Huatulco/Puerto Escondido, Mexico area? I am planning a trip for mid august, but the only problem is, with less then a month left, I still have no idea what to expect. I will only be able to bring a 7/8 weight, and I will probably fish the bays in Huatulco and Puerto Angel….any other hot spots in the area???? I need to know what kind of fish are availible to me, and of course what flies (specific patterns?) or type of flies (shrimp? baitfish?) and what sizes i should tie them in….also handy would be possibly guide recommendations and leader strengths? Actually, any information at all would be great! I just need all the help I can get! Anyway, if you have any ideas, please either email me OR reply to this message! Thanks in advance, Scott
at:<http://www.geocities/thetropics/4888 They specialize in Baja Fishing only !!!
Does anyone have information about fishing in Huatulco/Puerto Escondido, Mexico area? I am planning a trip for mid august, but the only problem is, with less then a month left, I still have no idea what to expect. I will only be able to bring a 7/8 weight, and I will probably fish the bays in Huatulco and Puerto Angel….any other hot spots in the area???? I need to know what kind of fish are availible to me, and of course what flies (specific patterns?) or type of flies (shrimp? baitfish?) and what sizes i should tie them in….also handy would be possibly guide recommendations and leader strengths? Actually, any information at all would be great! I just need all the help I can get! Anyway, if you have any ideas, please either email me OR reply to this message! Thanks in advance, Scott
10. Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?
10. Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?
9. Your fly is stuck on the fern 20 feet behind you. - Ken — Ken Janik Oregon State University Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering
9. Your line is dry. — Dennis C. Aron Independent Representative #13921 Champion Fishing Co., Ltd e-mail for income opportunity – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 10. Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?
10. Your hook is on backwards.
Two words.. "Fez Hat" 
email hacked to foil spammers
10. Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish? 9. Your fly is stuck on the fern 20 feet behind you. – Ken
8. You have been fishing for ten minutes without realizing you lost your fly. David
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 10. Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish? 9. Your fly is stuck on the fern 20 feet behind you. – Ken 8. You have been fishing for ten minutes without realizing you lost your fly. David
7) Your rod is so light you cast 16 times before you realized you left the rod on the river bank.
10. Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?
1. You are fishing with me after telling me stories for years about how you never get skunked.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 9. Your line is dry. — Dennis C. Aron Independent Representative #13921 Champion Fishing Co., Ltd e-mail for income opportunity 10. Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish? youre sitting at home surfing the net
10. Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?
I have been casting the last hour without a fly? Why don’t we stop false casting? Someone drained your swimming pool? Bill Kiene Kiene’s Fly Shop Sacramento,CA,USA 800/4000FLY
9. You’re too busy deleting all of the cheesy filler this list generates, to ever make it out the door : Anglerboy : Any ideas to finish? — gp
9. You’re too busy deleting all of the cheesy filler this list generates, to ever make it out the door 8. Some carnsarned kid caught ‘em all. 7. With a cane pole she cut, using worms. Anglerboy
….your fly fishing, should of used live bait!! marco
8. You have been fishing for ten minutes without realizing you lost your fly. David
Actually, you didn’t lose your fly– you just lost the bend and point of the hook. The fly still looks beautiful! — Tight Threads, Charley Renn Corvallis, OR
10. Your hook is on backwards. Anglerboy Any ideas to finish?
9. You just pissed in the stream and the fish know! 8. Your dog just pissed in the stream. 7. You’re wading in the same same smelly sneakers as two seasons ago. 6. You snapped the nymph off your tippet six casts ago. 5. You’re tying up your flies with the same fingers you use to take a pinch of chewing tobacco 4. Your dry fly is not getting "down to where the fish are." 3. Your nymph is not skating across the film like it ought to. 2. Got drunk and missed the hatch. And the number one reason you’re not catching fish. . . The wife wants you to finish putting up the shelves in the pantry.
You’ve been breathing too much head cement.
10. Your hook is on backwards. Two words.. "Fez Hat" email hacked to foil spammers
You’re spending all your fishing time on ROFF
I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ?
What would anyone do with a ’starving’ fish – bury it in their garden to fertilize the tomatoes? Feed it to the cat? Cat might not eat it! Ralph H
I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO.
Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask? Frankly I’m surprised you have any time left to actually fish – if you actually *do* fish… /dave
For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey. Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul Marriner
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey. Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW.
Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ? Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases. I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’. Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature. A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning. The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases. The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW
Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation.
But… When you’re fishing a hatch, you play the fish buring one of those *brief* periods when food is abundant. If the sprint around the block is always at diinertime, and the food is gone by the time you return, it can add up. I’m not saying, "don’t fish," I’m just saying that there are impacts involved in c&r, just like any style of fishing. (Besides, during a heavy hatch, it can be a lot of fun to lean the rod against a tree and watch the fish work, without trying to catch them. Can improve your fishing, too.) CQ
A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you?
Not when a hatch is on. High country fish can be very selective then. It makes sense for a trout to become selective when mayflies are hatching because it’s a temporary abundance. The nymphs, baitfish, et al, will still be there after the hatch is over. CQ
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey. Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ? Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases. I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’. Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature. A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning. The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases. The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW
Sorry Tim I think this little bit of work from your imagination is a clunker. But then nobody bats 100. I posted my reponses previously so won’t repeat them. hope you don’t mind me asking but did you base this on any study or work that shows fish in those alpine streams you fish are so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have shrunken concave bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For all that we praise the "intelligence" of trout (mostly because sometimes we can’t catch them) they are really creatures of habit. Research studies (not fairy tales or anecdotes) have shown that trout may take several days to switch to a larger (hence more energy efficient), equally abundant, prey after several days of feeding on smaller prey. Also, sorry to insult anyone, there has been some serious c**p thrown out in this thread. Atlantic salmon ascend long rivers, take no food and undergo physiological changes (requiring energy) related to spawning, spawn, spend an entire winter under the ice, and then head back to sea. In the process they lose from 1/3 to 1/2 their body weight. On the way out they feed, take flies well, often fight as hard as a bright fish, and recover quickly (studies show well over 90% survival, probably because of the cold oxygen-rich water). Based on this I seriously doubt that trout are harmed by being caught providing they are landed quickly and THE WATER TEMPERATURES ARE LOW. Paul, Would the same hold true in a non-anadromous population with a sparser food base ? Please accept that the high altitude freestone creeks are not the big food suppliers as an oceanic watershed, almost barren in some cases. I do so wish that you would not call the postings of myself and our friends ‘c**p’. Also, you have compared this to one of the most strenuous acts of reproduction in nature. A required one and one of major literary & philosophical meaning. The desparate act of a fish NOT making it over the falls in some cases. The desparate act of an old cock on its last trip upstream. The desparateness of losing 1/2 of their body weight in this struggle. Not really on the same plane as hooking and playing it for fun, is it ? Respectfully, TimW
Sorry time but IMO this work from your imagination is a clunker. I’ve posted my responses elsewhere and won’t repeat them. However let me ask did you base this post on any kind of study on the alpine streams in your area that indicated the fish were so stressed by lack of food? BTW a fish with a big head and small body isn’t starving; it’s just lean like a marathon runner or a cheetah. Starving fish have concave shrunken bellies. You wouldn’t want to eat one either. Ralph H
: That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.
A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours. I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds. Slightly less than a
Good Grief! What kind of rod could he have been using. I have landed steelhead this size on a 4 wt. rod in less than 20 minutes. Three and a half hours is torture! -Burton
While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW
Nah…I just wanted to remind you that there are bigger fish to fry.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways.
Ok then. What I am hearing… Our [flyfishermen's] definition of the ethics of catch and release… "We may cause indiscriminate harm to a wild animal, so long as the animal does not normally die as a result, in our search for happiness. Our metric will only include mortality and will not include incidental suffering or non-fatal injury" Or, something like that… I laugh at our free usage of the term ‘respect’ for a wild animal. It is really, really laughable (if it weren’t so sad). Wham !!! Set the Hook !!!! Wham, Lay the rod into it !! she’s runnin’ for the rapids…then this thoughtful ‘respectful’ release…sometimes with an accompanying little kiss on the lips. Respect ? I don’t think so. Cause for self-congratulation, perhaps. TimW
While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…
Finally the real meat of the issues. Isn’t it time we humans get a little more ,NO! a lot more involve with the issues of rectifying and push for the preservation of our current watersheds. When their all gone who will be there to make new ones? The issues may vary from state to state, but they are the sum of all the parts. Trout are a good indicator for water quality and the quality of life to which we an ultimately attached. Seems to me that a new thread needs to be started here. Our fingers are dancing on the very tools that could start a very positive movement. What do you say guys? How about it, Tim, George, and Al? On another sad note, my ISP really sucks and I only receive less than half of the news posting and feel like a mushroom on lost thread portions. If anybody felt like CC me on your postings I would sure appreciate it. — Doug Knight metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No. You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. Tim, that was clearly a sarcastic remark in as short a form as I could provide, in response to this totally contrived troll of yours (which didn’t merit the response you would like to have received)… Yours is a tiresome routine – starting one thread after another all aimed at repeating your philosphy ad nauseum – and self-sanctified as being preferable to more civilized/less contentious topics of discussion… To what ends, I ask?
I’ll be happy when the popularity of the sport subsides by say, 80%. I’ll be patting myself on the back all the way down to the deep run behind Pat’s rock, which will be devoid of people and clogged with fish. TimW
While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot… I have taken the liberty of changing the thread title for you, if you want a serious discussion of the mine possibility and its detriment. This is a different thread… TimW
OK Tim, You were reading my mind. What are we playing with here, threads, fish, or environmental action? Isn’t it time we all get involved. Where do I sign up? It’s time to give something back. Please make note to CC, my ISP really sucks. — Doug Knight metalfab<atefaxinc.com Junk e-mail, solicitation, sales, products and services gladly accepted at $50.00 per mailing and billed directly to your ISP.
Tim pardon me but this is vapour ware to the nth degree. You’re expounding proifically on a hypothetical situation about which nothing is known. Fish have to dash away from predators all the time; they have energy stores that help them deal with that. Trout, steelhead and salmon go through frequent and often lengthy periods when they feed little or not at all. You’d have us believe that a "sprint around the block" followed by a fast lasting a few hours will lead to death by starvation. If you’re going to fabricate something please at least make it credible and believable. from Your Biggest fan Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish. It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae. What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation. Bingo. Fish On. The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ? Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW
The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish.
A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I mean, you’re more likely to find a selective fish in some rich, artificial tailwater than you are in a high-county lake or stream, aren’t you? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation. Bingo. Fish On. The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ?
(I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ? Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?
It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been. It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What? If it was an overcrowded stream, you’re right. If there are so many fish in the creek that the one you just caught is starving, kill and eat it. That population sounds like it needs to be thinned, in my no-expert opinion. A lot of the higher streams I’ve fished have what seem to be normal numbers of fish – they are healthy, active, and not swarming all over each other. I’d imagine that at least some of them have native fish, and they *are* all wild fish. There seems to be plenty of food. The only fish I’ll take out of a small, highish creek around here are brook trout or the rare brown; no cutts or rainbows. I don’t feel bad about that, because these fish aren’t monsters and they are generally not starving. The fight is quick and one-sided, and they are undoubtedly more stunned than exhausted when it’s over. Of any trout, these are the ones I like to lay eyes on the most. C&K seems like a bad idea to have catch on when it comes to these streams. If you fish a heavier rod while practicing C&R, you release a healthier fish but probably shouldn’t call it ’sport.’ If you fish a really light, sporting rod; play the trout for ten minutes; kill, keep, and eat it, you have a fish that tastes bad. I don’t call what I do with those little cutts and redsides ’sport,’ and the brook trout I keep are delicious. The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc. Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most. In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – TimW
I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ?
No.
The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. I don’t get it. Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one?
because the midges are abundant thr fish gains more calories than it expends by feeding exclusively on midges and ignoring the sculpin. It’s a hypothesis used to explain selectivity Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water? Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from? You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!?
It’s not my idea. No I don’t mean they are confused. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. You’re right, that didn’t make any sense. It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast. The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less. So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip. They don’t have to budget their energy, really. I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it.
Salmon don’t always make a one way trip. Atlantics and steelhead usually return to the sea. Also salmon don’t stare to death they are genetically programed to die after spawning. Some stocks that are as sea fat as other go only a few yrds above tide water. Pacific salmon die of multiple organ failure that can’t simply be explain by starvation. Also genetically they can make the switch from salt to fresh water only once. The die off could be an adaption to transfer rich ocean nutrients to their native streams and enhance their offsprings chances for survival. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. That’s true. It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow. If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. Ralph H
Ralph H – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? No.
You would not view the practice of C&R on starving fish a mean act ? Really ? You would throw a starving dog a rubber bone ? You are a mean man Mr. Tatosian, IMO. TimW
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of : being a fish. : A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it? I have to agree here; the arguments being made of the average fish fight being so life-threatening is kindof ridiculous. This "1/2 energy/wieght/whatever lost" being mispresented. As (I think) another poster said, think of it as a sprint. Even if you are out of shape, a sprint won’t kill you — in fact, 10 minutes later you won’t even feel the effects. Same for the trout. You use up your short-term energy — sugar in the cells — but this doesn’t effect your fat reserves or anything to any large degree. Now, a prolonged fight, and environmental stresses (such as warm water) are worse, but I don’t think from an energy loss standpoint its much worse — the problems come from the fish needing more time to recuperate and can’t orient itself during this time (unlike us, who would just lay down on the ground and *breathe*; a fish can’t do that). We’ve all had hard releases — I held a fish for 20 minutes one time (actually stopped him from swimming away a couple of times), and eventually he looked just fine, swam away and took a position behind a rock — was still there later in the day. I don’t think the energy loss hurt him one bit. I’ll second that a big-head/little-bodied fish mean there’s too many fish for the food base, and you should keep it anyways. JonCook.
While you guys are debating C&R vs.C&K and skinny fish, and how much time landing a fish is too much time…THEY ARE BUILDING A GOLD MINE ON THE BLACFOOT RIVER IN MONTANA….and it has the potential to render all your arguments moot…
The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom.
I don’t get it. Why would it be better for a trout to concentrate on midges and ignore a juicy sculpin, as long as it was big enough to eat one? Also, why would the fish have to concentrate if there was a lot of food in the water? Isn’t that where the phrase ‘easy pickins’ comes from? You don’t mean that trout are easily confused, do you?!? (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.) what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying.
You’re right, that didn’t make any sense. It’s the stored glycogen in the muscle that they use up so fast. The book I just checked that in claims that the white muscle used for burst speed may take up to 18 hours to get rid of the lactic acid that results from the gas-guzzling, while the muscles used for regular, sustained swimming do it in an hour or less. So you probably can’t compare swimming vs. fighting fish and then say that there isn’t any truth to what Tim Walker was saying. Also, salmon are making a one-way trip. They don’t have to budget their energy, really. I wouln’t be supprised at all to hear that salmon use more energy trying to get over a single tough falls than a typical trout does in a month of dodging predators, but the salmon probably dies sooner for doing it. if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out.
That’s true. It’s strange that some of the more obviously-overcrowded lakes that I’ve seen are also shallow. If any lake was going to winter-kill, it seems like they’d be the ones. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ralph H
Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ?
A guy who works in a fly shop just told me this evening about a guy who said he played a steelhead for 3 and a half hours. I asked him how big it was and he told me the guy claimed 8 pounds. Slightly less than a half hour a pound… Phil
A fish feeding selectively is a fish wallowing in luxury, isn’t it?
The hypothesis goes (it isn’t even ‘theory’) that the fish becomes selective to cope with abundance. It makes it more efficient to focus om midges in Tim’s example so it doesn’t get distracted by say a sculpin on the bottom. You’re right a starving fish is unlikley to be selective. (I remember reading that a trout uses something like half of its stored energy in 15 seconds when it’s at full throttle.)
what exactly is it’s stored energy? The energy you store in your body is fat. Do you mean to say a trout burns up half it’s stored fat swimming at full throttle for 15 seconds? Sounds proposterous. It is proposterous if you watch salmon moving up stream or jumping a falls Consider many stocks migrate hundreds of miles without feeding for months I think this whole line of reasoning falls on it’s keester. But a tip of the hat to Tim for trying. very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out.
if it were nearly starving and being caught put it at death’s door the whole stock in the stream simply wouldn’t last long. The first good drought or flood or an unusually hard winter would wipe them out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -It seems like the folks fishing the rich tailwaters are more likely to be using too light of a rod for the fish that live there, so the benefit of plentiful food could be offset by the fish being played way longer than it should have been. It may die anyway. The starving fish in the sterile alpine creek can’t be underpowered, but there is hardly any food for it to eat once it’s released. What? [snip] The part of C&R that bugs me is hearing of 15# steelhead caught on four-weight rigs, people fishing for huge trout with two-weights, etc.
This bugs me too and I think many have pushed the light tackle envelope too far, way too far. Small, alpine trout are probably bothered by C&R the least, and they are the ones that need it the most. In my opinion. Dave DeLacey Corvallis, Or.
Ralph H
The pinnacle of our sport is catching a wild trout feeding selectively on dries. That the fish is feeding selectively speaks to the difficulties of being a fish. It is important that the energy expended to consume an insect must not exceed the energy gained by this insects consumption. It is tough row to hoe for a fish eating this minutae. What percentage of fish even make it to this stage ? Along comes, O.M.I. Gudd the world famous dry fly man with his 2 wt and and exact imitation. Bingo. Fish On. The fight lasts 10 minutes, and the fish is going…"damned, now I gotta eat an additional 1000 midges just to get back to my fighting weight !"…well we don’t really know WHAT Mr. Brown thinks, but it would be true that he is now in an energy deficit situation…this could kill him…have you ever caught a starving fish ? Big head, tiny emaciated snake like body ? Now you tell me…how many days will it take for that fish to get to where it was before you hooked, played and released it ? Considering that it was possibly very nearly starving when you laid that Adams out. Maybe in the unnatural tailwaters where food is abundant this is less of a problem then a freestone creek at 12,000 ft., but I would view pure C&R as a really mean act in this situation, wouldn’t you ? TimW
That’s because you’re a gimp!
I’M TELLING YOU THIS IS THE TRUTH. THERE IS PRACTICALLY NO PRESSURE ON THIS STREAM, AT LEAST WHEN I WAS FISHING IT BACK IN ‘92 -’95, AND IF YOU EXERCISED THE LEAST BIT OF RESTRAINT AND WERE AT LEAST A LITTLE BIT STEALTHY (SP?) YOU COULD BUST THESE BAD BOYS WITH REGULARITY ON ROYAL WULFFS AND YELLOW HUMPYS. THAT MAY NOT BE THE CASE ANYMORE WITH ALL THE GODDAMN CALIFORNIANS AND NORMAN MACLAIN WANNABES TROMPING THROUGH THE WATER LIKE SOLDIERS ON THE BEACHES OF NORMANDY. THE WEST END OF THE CREEK JUST BEFORE IT’S CONFLUENCE WITH THE EAGLE RIVER IS EXCEPTONAL. AND IN THE WINTER IT’S EVEN BETTER. PRESSURE MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : I can confirm that you can catch 20+ inchers in the town of vail. I’ve : only been up there one day and I hooked into a couple 15"-ers but as I : was kayaking another day I saw some other people catching larger ones and : the guide at the fly store was telling tales of 25" fish he had cought : that week. Wow. A 25" rainbow in a mountain stream (without a lake at the bottom) is a rare thing these days. I’m sure the rarity is increased in the middle of town. Good catch indeed. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
That’s great, now I can walk across the street for a Big Max—-T Wigs—–
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This "Trout in Town" thing is not only real, it is the norm around here in Colorado. In fact Mr. Fletcher, I’ll show you a spot in Colorado where you can catch a 24 incher behind a major busy grocery store. TimW well, boys, i’d be proud to show you where you can catch a 12 inch rainbow so far from any real town that you forget the color of traffic lights. but there would be damn few 24 inchers. and the folks you’d be fishin with talk funny. a. wayne harrison
lets go. TimW
: I can confirm that you can catch 20+ inchers in the town of vail. I’ve : only been up there one day and I hooked into a couple 15"-ers but as I : was kayaking another day I saw some other people catching larger ones and : the guide at the fly store was telling tales of 25" fish he had cought : that week. Wow. A 25" rainbow in a mountain stream (without a lake at the bottom) is a rare thing these days. I’m sure the rarity is increased in the middle of town. Good catch indeed. — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
This "Trout in Town" thing is not only real, it is the norm around here in Colorado. In fact Mr. Fletcher, I’ll show you a spot in Colorado where you can catch a 24 incher behind a major busy grocery store. TimW
well, boys, i’d be proud to show you where you can catch a 12 inch rainbow so far from any real town that you forget the color of traffic lights. but there would be damn few 24 inchers. and the folks you’d be fishin with talk funny. a. wayne harrison
Gore Creek has some pretty big fish and they ain’t all that tame. I haven’t caught a 20" trout there but I’ve no trouble believing that there are fish that big and larger. Catching them is a bit tricky, however. Jeff
I can confirm that you can catch 20+ inchers in the town of vail. I’ve only been up there one day and I hooked into a couple 15"-ers but as I was kayaking another day I saw some other people catching larger ones and the guide at the fly store was telling tales of 25" fish he had cought that week. Leave a few for me and remember a lot of the area is restricted fishing. TJ
I particularly like bashing stockers for the smoker in front of the tourists at the rest areas along I-70. And I can never understand why some of the folks on here think you taunt them…
They’re too sensitive. TimW
: I can confirm that you can catch 20+ inchers in the town of vail. I’ve : only been up there one day and I hooked into a couple 15"-ers but as I : was kayaking another day I saw some other people catching larger ones and : the guide at the fly store was telling tales of 25" fish he had cought : that week. Wow. A 25" rainbow in a mountain stream (without a lake at the bottom) is a rare thing these days. I’m sure the rarity is increased in the middle of town. Good catch indeed.
The chances are very, very good that this was a brooder released (sent to pasture) by the CDOW. Gore creek can not support this sized fish naturally. TimW
: You should see the holding pools and trout observation structure (it is : cool, like a sea world underground view into a large hole below a rapid) : in Boulder, Co. Many, may big fish. Lots are the DOW brooders sent to : pasture. And that is really the thought behind my post. I know Boulder pretty well, and I don’t recall "many, many big fish". No wonder, when one considers the number of kids splashing around in the water and homeless people looking for chow. I do know there are quite a number of fish in Boulder Creek downtown, I just didn’t believe they were large. Now I do. I’ve always admired Missoula with the Clarks Fork running through town. Noon whistle bell rings and the folks head to the river with their rods. One o’clock comes and they go back to work. : Grizzly King. Again, ‘parkish’. I particularly like bashing stockers : for the smoker in front of the tourists at the rest areas along I-70. And I can never understand why some of the folks on here think you taunt them… : In fact Mr. Fletcher, I’ll show you a spot in Colorado where you can catch : a 24 incher behind a major busy grocery store. I do that all the time. The trick is to hide behind a box and then jump out when they toss the overripe salmon in the garbage. I often hear "good catch". What is that story by McGuane where he walks through town and catches fish? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
: Hey everyone, : I have a question. If you only had one evening to fish within a : half-hour of Vail, where would you choose to fish? I am going up : there tomorrow and would like your insight. : Thanks : JS Homestake Creek, south of Minturn. It’s beyond Battle Mt. and Redcliff. Turn right at the cabin with the Hummingbird feeder to cross a small bridge on the creek. Anywhere on the ~8 miles to Homestake Res. has nice little Brookies. Clean water, no tailing drainage, unlike the Eagle near Minturn. Even if you don’t catch anything, it’s an interesting drive past Battle Mt. Tallyho ! Alpha Kilo
: Homestake Creek, south of Minturn. It’s beyond Battle Mt. and Redcliff. : Turn right at the cabin with the Hummingbird feeder to cross a small : bridge on the creek. Anywhere on the ~8 miles to Homestake Res. has : nice little Brookies. Clean water, no tailing drainage, unlike the : Eagle near Minturn. Even if you don’t catch anything, it’s an interesting : drive past Battle Mt. I’ve heard that it is absolutely useless to use surface flies on the fish near Minturn. Nothing works but nymphs. I guess they have so much lead in them that they can’t get to the surface to go for a dry fly. They just sink to the bottom. Dynamite doesn’t even bring them up. True? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
: Homestake Creek, south of Minturn. It’s beyond Battle Mt. and Redcliff. : Turn right at the cabin with the Hummingbird feeder to cross a small : bridge on the creek. Anywhere on the ~8 miles to Homestake Res. has : nice little Brookies. Clean water, no tailing drainage, unlike the : Eagle near Minturn. Even if you don’t catch anything, it’s an interesting : drive past Battle Mt. I’ve heard that it is absolutely useless to use surface flies on the fish near Minturn. Nothing works but nymphs. I guess they have so much lead in them that they can’t get to the surface to go for a dry fly. They just sink to the bottom. Dynamite doesn’t even bring them up. True?
but it’s really worth it, ’cause you can catch a 4 inch fish and honestly tell the boys in the shop that you nailed a 6 pounder…. TimW
You have a gold medal stream running right through the heart of Vail, Gore Creek. Twenty inch rainbows on attractors. The best in town fishing in Colorado.
Rick, : You have a gold medal stream running right through the heart of Vail, : Gore Creek. Twenty inch rainbows on attractors. The best in town : fishing in Colorado. I find this to be a remarkable statement, that 20 inch bows can be caught in town. If it is true, that is the ultimate "tame" fish.
I can readily believe that you could read something like this in a brochure published by the Vail Chamber of Commerce, but don’t bet your firstborn on it. Nor should you put much stock in the "Two Trout Over 16 Inches" signs; if you read the shocking reports you will quickly realize that they’re really just a statistically and politically correct way to say "Catch and Release". However, in a stream not far away … Tom
: You have a gold medal stream running right through the heart of Vail, : Gore Creek. Twenty inch rainbows on attractors. The best in town : fishing in Colorado. I find this to be a remarkable statement, that 20 inch bows can be caught in town. If it is true, that is the ultimate "tame" fish. Can anyone confirm whether J&J’s assertion is true?
This is not only true, but it is the trend in urban stream reclamation. The Roaring Fork through Aspen is the same way. "Parkish", I would call it. You should see the holding pools and trout observation structure (it is cool, like a sea world underground view into a large hole below a rapid) in Boulder, Co. Many, may big fish. Lots are the DOW brooders sent to pasture. The planners in Glenwood have planned and started construction on a bike path along the Fork through town. They rollerblade in bikinis along the colorado through the Glenwood Canyon, and you need to be careful where you hurl the Grizzly King. Again, ‘parkish’. I particularly like bashing stockers for the smoker in front of the tourists at the rest areas along I-70. The best section of the Blue (trust me) *IS* in the Heart of Silverthorne, problem here is property access. Same in Breckenridge, Ouray etc. etc. This "Trout in Town" thing is not only real, it is the norm around here in Colorado. In fact Mr. Fletcher, I’ll show you a spot in Colorado where you can catch a 24 incher behind a major busy grocery store. TimW
: You have a gold medal stream running right through the heart of Vail, : Gore Creek. Twenty inch rainbows on attractors. The best in town : fishing in Colorado. I find this to be a remarkable statement, that 20 inch bows can be caught in town. If it is true, that is the ultimate "tame" fish. Can anyone confirm whether J&J’s assertion is true? — Rick T. Rick Fletcher – http://www.chem.uidaho.edu/~fletcher/ Associate professor of chemistry | That’s Idaho, not Iowa. | ad hominem University of Idaho | Upper Left Hand Corner. | ad hominem Moscow, ID 83844-2343 | No, I don’t grow potatoes. | ad hominem
writes: Hey everyone, I have a question. If you only had one evening to fish within a half-hour of Vail, where would you choose to fish? I am going up there tomorrow and would like your insight. Thanks JS
Js, I think that would be Beaver Creek in Beaver Creek (just outside of Vail) I hear that’s some good small stream fishing but, haven’t tried it yet. Probably some mosquito’s, elk hair caddis, small humpy’s, ect… would work just fine. Best of luck….Cliff
Hey everyone, I have a question. If you only had one evening to fish within a half-hour of Vail, where would you choose to fish? I am going up there tomorrow and would like your insight. Thanks JS
Hey everyone, I have a question. If you only had one evening to fish within a half-hour of Vail, where would you choose to fish? I am going up there tomorrow and would like your insight. Thanks JS
Why not fish Gore Creek, which possesses Gold-Medal waters right through the city of Vail? Eagle and Colorado Rivers are close-by and are always nice rivers… — MORGAN P. BROWN Colorado School of Mines Rice University Phone: (303) 215-9190 URL: http://timna.mines.edu/~mbrown http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~mpbro
My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller. Should I try to talk him out of it? If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti?
IMO, no, its a very good vice for the money unless of course he has the money to buy the more expensive vice. (Regals ARE nice) Then just on principal he should get the more exensive vice. After all this is fly fishing <vbseg. Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does need a new vise.
Yes he does I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does not lock.
If you don’t want to use the rotary feature (I don’t), just tighten the rotary mechanism against the post and it will lock. Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to my
Thompson Pro? You’re just rationalizing Wayne Knight Marietta GA
writes: My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller. Should I try to talk him
out of it? If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti? Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does
need a new vise.
I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does
not lock. Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to
my Thompson Pro?
I’ve used a Renzetti Traveller for more than three years now and love it! It should be noted that I got no real experience with any other vices, except a few Indian ones that didn’t last me long. I guess the locking could be an handicap, but I’ve never missed it for my tying (mostly saltwater and salmon). And it travels real well! Inge
: It should be noted that I got no real experience with any other vices, : except a few Indian ones that didn’t last me long. A good vice should last a lifetime, I always say. (Sorry, couldn’t resist…) — BW Brad Williams —
… I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does not lock. Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to my Thompson Pro?
You can in fact, adjust the drag (to the point of locking) on the renzetti’s rotation using the 2 friction wheels. It’s not the most convenient system though. Personally, I use the traveller as my only vise. I do travel alot and often bring my tying case with me. The size and weight of the traveller are great for this. Otherwise, the traveller is a great vise for the money. Good jaws, large range and very functional, at 1/3rd the price of the rest of the renzetti line. rick
I’ve used everything from the Thompson A vise through the Renzetti, HMH, and Regal, and I’ve ended up with the Regal…it’s an absolutely foolproof vise,provides resting place for the left hand, is perfectly rotatable, esp. if Ingeset it up horizontally, can be used right-= or left- handed, has interchangeable heads, and can be had for a reasonable price. The other vises are wonderful, too, but nothing beats the Regal in my view (for what it’s worth), and I’ve been tying flies for more than fifty years. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller. Should I try to talk him out of it? If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti? Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does need a new vise. I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does not lock. Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to my Thompson Pro? I’ve used a Renzetti Traveller for more than three years now and love it! It should be noted that I got no real experience with any other vices, except a few Indian ones that didn’t last me long. I guess the locking could be an handicap, but I’ve never missed it for my tying (mostly saltwater and salmon). And it travels real well! Inge
I have responded several times to questions about the Renzetti Traveller. It is wonderful. The issue of the rotation not locking is a non issue. What makes the Renzetti system so nice is that the rotation of the hook shaft is central, due to the offset jaws. Therefore, there is no tendency for the vice to rotate under load. The other thing that is very nice about the Traveller that is not true of the higher priced Renzettis; it will rotate in both directions. This is very useful if you tie ribbing reverse-wrapped over palmered hackle, such as in a Spey salmon or steelhead fly. Crashjibe
writes: My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller. Should I try to talk him out of it? If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti? Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does need a new vise.
I have both a Regal and a Renzetti Traveller. I love the Renzetti. It works very well, is very well designed, and weighs only 8 ounces! Steve Rosenblum
I’m relatively new to tying. After breaking my beginner $13 Indian vise, I bought a Renzetti Traveller. I really like the Traveller–but admitedly I don’t have much experience for comparisons. By the way, you CAN lock the rotation by increasing the drag sufficiently, although it’s not overwhelmingly convenient.
The Traveller is the BEST vise for someone upgrading from a beginners-type vise. The price is right, and it will be years before he outgrows the vise and feels he needs a more sophisticated one. And then he will have one for traveling and one for the home base!!!
My brother wants to buy a Renzetti Traveller. Should I try to talk him out of it? If so, should he get a Regal or a more expensive Renzetti? Right now he is suffering with one of those $13 Indian vises, so he does need a new vise. I am bothered a little bit by the fact that the Traveller’s rotation does not lock. Is this a real handicap, or am I rationalizing my fidelity to my Thompson Pro? — Keep your stick on the ice.
I really enjoy tying with mine, it’s all I need in a vise.
I really enjoy tying with mine, it’s all I need in a vise.
Have you tried a Regal vise yet? I have an Inex (their cheapest model) and I love it. Sometimes I wish it were a rotary, but that’s only once and a while. The spring loaded clamping method they use is really neat. Just work the handle and insert a hook. One problem though. If you don’t put the hook in enough, it may pop out and chip the tip of the jaws. I did that twice then sent it back. They fixed it for free, but made it clear that the next time I do that it will cost $25 for a new set of jaws. Plus I have kids, so I have to find every hook I drop. One flew over 10 feet out into the hall. Thank goodness hooks are made out of ferrous (sp?) metal. I was wondering if other cam-type vises do this too? A sunny day, a box of midges, and a wandering stream… Man, this MUST be heaven! < Steve Kulpa <<
There may be less people doing overnight backpack trips, but I bet there are more people in the backcountry overall and doing a much more diverse set of activities. Which is very good news for us that do like to backpack: less people in the backcountry. There might be more people in the woods but they all leave at dark. I was talking to a fellow the other day who said he did quite
Oops! Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply we’re not in the backcountry after dark. Many times I’m bivouaced on a ledge while climbing or camping in sagebrush near a remote desrt cave in Wyoming. So what I meant to imply is that besides the diversity of day trips many of us pack gear into remote places during mountaineering, caving, and whitewater trips that backpackers normally don’t visit. I’ve never seen backpackers on the East Ridge of the Grand Teton, or in the desert near Bighorn caverns, or along some of the remote stretches of whitewater in central Idaho, so there ARE more people in the backcountry overnight far from trailheads and vehicles, but in different places than backpackers normally go. I think what I’m getting at is, we are using backpacking as a mode of trasportation for some other goal, and not an end in itself. I’m not a "backpacker", yet backpacking is a critical part of getting to a lot of remote activities where I do spend the night. I’ve probably spent 300 night camped in backcountry far from roads in the past 6 or 7 years and only 3 of those night were on what I would call a backpacking trip. Steve —
Eugene Miya: What worries me more are the borderline Wilcox’s out there reading the net (you can quote me on that). I know a few in everyday life, and I lost one a couple of years back. That is evolution in action. –eugene Steve Reiser: Hi Eugene, I read your posting on "In the Hall of the Mountain King" and "White Winds", both of which I’ve read and have copies of. Snyder indicated a lot of bad judgement by Wilcox. Wilcox tries to be objective in his book, but one can’t help but notice his omissions. He seemed to cover up his errors not by arguing with Snyder’s account, but by ignoring them altogether. His book seemed somewhat defensive, especially at the end when he talks about all the grief he went through in the press afterword. I think Snyder probably gave an honest account, which arouses some wrath toward Wilcox, in most readers. I didn’t like the way Wilcox covered his errors, but I was convinced that he suffered enough condemnation afterword to make me feel a bit sorry for him. I think his response was a bit overly defensive to the media, the Park Service, and the relatives of those who died. I would imagine that Wilcox’s attempt to gloss over his errors may have been part of the inspiration for Snyder to write his book in the first place. Hence, if Wilcox would have been more honest in the first place, it’s possible that neither book would have ever been written. It’s hard to read both books and not come up with mixed feelings toward Wilcox. It’s tempting to feel some anger toward him for lack of good judgement, especially on their summit day for the second group, and at the same time feeling some sympathy for the weight of blame layed on him, since he was the expedition leader. (Snyder was better qualified to be the leader of the group.) Steve Reiser P.S – Seven friends of mine left yesterday for the Denali. I wish them well. (They’re more experienced than most in the books discussed above). If this appears twice, I first posted without a subject. —
I think what I’m getting at is, we are using backpacking as a mode of trasportation for some other goal, and not an end in itself. I’m not a "backpacker", yet backpacking is a critical part of getting to a lot of remote activities where I do spend the night. I’ve probably spent 300 night camped in backcountry far from roads in the past 6 or 7 years and only 3 of those night were on what I would call a backpacking trip.
Maybe we have a problem with semantics here. I think if you hike off into the woods with a backpack, you’re backpacking, no matter what the end result is. I pack in to climb mountains, do caves, search for minerals, etc. and consider that backpacking. Cripes, those packs are heavy – I’m not doing it for fun. Well, maybe I am. Either way, I’m still pleased that there are less people out there when sunset finishes and the stars come out.
There may be less people doing overnight backpack trips, but I bet there are more people in the backcountry overall and doing a much more diverse set of activities.
Which is very good news for us that do like to backpack: less people in the backcountry. There might be more people in the woods but they all leave at dark. I was talking to a fellow the other day who said he did quite a bit of backpacking in the early 70’s. He said that he would hike 10 miles into the backcountry and see several groups of people back there too and think nothing of it. Other than my group of friends, I don’t know anyone at all that backpacks and I almost never see anyone else in the backcountry (outside of hunters, that is). One would think that there would at least be trail bikers back there but they seem to be more into ‘day-biking’. I’m not complaining, of course, I’m happy.
I thought some might find this article interesting – DH [some deleted] ON THE DECLINE Overnight and longer backpacking trips are a sport on the decline, said Christy Metz, public information specialist for Rocky Mountain National Park. In their place, the number of day hikers and campground campers are growing. Backpacking began increasing in the early ’70s, peaked in the late ’70s, and has been falling ever since. In 1977, Rocky Mountain National Park issued 62,708 back-country permits; in 1989, 32,792.
However, if you look at statistics for many other backcountry activities, you’ll find a drastic increase. Mountaineering, technical rock climbing, kayaking, mountain biking, spelunking, and many other backcountry sports are experiencing nearly exponential growth. I see more people specializing in specific sports in the backcountry and less who are out strictly backpacking. DIVERSIFY Some salespeople at moutaineering shops, however, are a bit hesitant to see their lines diversify too much. Many tempered their enthusiasm for expansion with a note of service to the true back country lover.
This hesitation to diversify has cost many local stores business in specialized gear, more of which is sold through mail order companies. I probably buy 50% of my outdoor gear through mail order due to this hesitance in local store. I’m into all of the sports I listed above and the diversity of gear required is far more than most outdoor shops are willing to carry. My point here in comparison to the original article is to note that even though outdoor gear is fashionable on the streets, day hikes, and campgrounds, and with backpacking on the decline, there is still an exploding market for specialized backcoutry sports. There may be less people doing overnight backpack trips, but I bet there are more people in the backcountry overall and doing a much more diverse set of activities. Steve —
I thought some might find this article interesting – DH Backpacking Outlets Expand Bottom Line by Susan Simmons Eustes Boulder Business Report – May 1990 Despite a dramatic drop in number of campers and tourists trekking into the back country, area mountaineering stores say their sales are growing every year. The day when the Vasque hiking boots were the "casual" loafer for many Boulderites has long disappeared. Today, lighter and brighter are in demand and traditional mountaineering stores are expanding product lines to include gear for every sport from kayaking to mountain biking. Like it or not, the mountaineering "look" continues to be fashionable in Boulder. "You always want the ‘in’ look, whether you are hiking the mall or hiking Flagstaff," said John Whitbeck, manager at the north face in Boulder. "People want to wear clothing that identifies them as outdoorsy." ON THE DECLINE Overnight and longer backpacking trips are a sport on the decline, said Christy Metz, public information specialist for Rocky Mountain National Park. In their place, the number of day hikers and campground campers are growing. Backpacking began increasing in the early ’70s, peaked in the late ’70s, and has been falling ever since. In 1977, Rocky Mountain National Park issued 62,708 back-country permits; in 1989, 32,792. … In 1985, the first year permits were issued for Indian Peaks [Wilderness Area], 2,134 were requested. In 1989, 1,550 permits were requested. So what does this mean for the people who sell camp stoves, sleeping bags, and hiking shoes? It means even more business, said Whitbeck. "In our 15 retail stores, without exception, business has been up a mile." The selling point for The North Face, and other mountain stores, is the dramatic shift in outdoor gear lines from the products carried 15 years ago. The traditional business of boots, packs and tents has mushroomed to include equipment for outdoor sports as varied as cross-country skiing or fly fishing. DIVERSIFY As baby boomers married and began to raise children, more chose day hikes or more convenient overnight stays in campgrounds, say Jim Wilson of the back- country office at Rocky Mountain National Park. … … (examples of stores diversifying) … Dan Hare, manager of The Boulder Mountaineer, said his sales of backpacks and sleeping bags continues to increase, but "lots of people buy backpacks that never go into the back country," he added. Shannon Long, manager at the Boulder Army Store, has noticed more of his customers are car camping and buying more for convenience. Such campers, however, often opt for the more expensive lines. "Ten years ago, people weren’t buying high-tech stuff. They weren’t into buying brand names. They were more concerned about getting a good product for a low price." Clothing is a big seller for most outdoor shops. Color are big, as are brand names and high fashion, mountain store owners agree. Everybody likes rugby shirts and cotton shorts, said Phil Hollman, salesman at The North Face. "Colors and style – people are really taken with that as much as we like to think they weren’t," Hollman said. "Everything is getting more specialized: new technologies, new fabrics, lighter weight and very colorful." Wools and cottons are taking a back seat to newer, more durable and comfortable fabrics such as Goretex, Dudley said. And with the newer fabrics come higher prices. The "tech heads" want the best, Noel added. People want the fiberglass tent poles, the lightweight backpacks and the warmer, more water repellant clothing even if it means higher prices. Some salespeople at moutaineering shops, however, are a bit hesitant to see their lines diversify too much. Many tempered their enthusiasm for expansion with a note of service to the true back country lover. Image and brand names mean more to people than store managers care to admit, [Mountain Sports buyer Scott] Lee said. "We’re not quite as trendy a store as some … We don’t want to lose our image as a mountaineering shop."